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Are Jews Egyptians ?


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#31    Abramelin

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 09:07 PM

View PostTor_Hershman, on 28 January 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

Perhaps yea, the AMEN thing may have been discussed here BUT DO those discussions  predate my online posting of
that info.?  Can you post a link to THOSE discussions here @ Unexplained Mysteries?
I'll try a search to find 'em.

If you want a link, try googling
nature magazine jews DNA,
google is your friend.

I talk from memory, and I am certain there was someone who claimed the same connection. But that was several years ago.

Anyway, here is some talk about the meaning of AMEN, and where it came from (maybe you need to scroll down a bit):

http://www.unexplain...8


#32    Abramelin

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 09:30 PM

And yes, Google is my friend, and it doesn't give me a link to a site that confirms your claim.

When *I* claim something, I always add a link to some online paper or non-fringe site to support it.
I don't tell people to go look for it themselves.

If you can't find that link again yourself, then most probably there was no link, and it was only your - perhaps - erroneous interpretation of what you read.

YOU claim something, so YOU provide links to sites that prove your point.

That's how things go around here (and many other places).

+++

EDIT:

This is from October, last year:

There was also a monothesiastic element that recognized a single creator, universal creator god. Pharoah Amenhotep IV made a decree outlawing the worship of all other gods during his rule other than that universal creator god. In the Egyptian religion, that was who Amen was. By the way, the 18th Dynasty; the Thutmoses (AKA Thoth-Moses="born of Thoth") & Amenhoteps were Semetic kings.

http://ro-jo-yo.hubpages.com/hub/Amen


.


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Edited by Abramelin, 28 January 2013 - 10:29 PM.


#33    Everdred

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 10:50 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 27 January 2013 - 10:06 PM, said:

The Near East: that could also be Western Arabia, right? You know, the area north of Mecca (or Makkah as the Saudis want us to spell the city's name)?

==

Can you post a link to that DNA research?

.

In this case Near East = Levant.  Genetics links jews most closely with modern Palestinians.  There's naturally some affinity with other nearby populations including Egyptians, but nothing to substantiate claims of origin from Egypt.


#34    Abramelin

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 11:20 PM

View PostEverdred, on 28 January 2013 - 10:50 PM, said:

In this case Near East = Levant.  Genetics links jews most closely with modern Palestinians.  There's naturally some affinity with other nearby populations including Egyptians, but nothing to substantiate claims of origin from Egypt.

It is known Jews settled on Elephantine Island.

But that will only muddle genetic research.

People moved to and fro, but some people fail (or are unwilling) to understand that.


#35    Orcseeker

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 12:53 AM

View PostArtaxerxes, on 25 January 2013 - 09:51 PM, said:

By the way, many near death experiencers describe an overwhelming feeling of oneness and connectedness while on the other side which makes me wonder if monotheism evolved out of people having near death experiences and/or mystical experiences where they felt this sense of universal "oneness"?  

excerpt from Michelle M's NDE description:
"I remember understanding the others here.. as if the others here were a part of me too.  As if all of it was just a vast expression of me.  But it wasn't just me, it was .. gosh this is so hard to explain.. it was as if we were all the same.  As if consciousness were like a huge being.  The easiest way to explain it would be like all things are all different parts of the same body."
http://www.nderf.org...lle_m's_nde.htm

excerpt from Mellen Benedict's NDE description:
"As the light revealed itself to me, I became aware that what I was really seeing was our Higher Self matrix. The only thing I can tell you is that it turned into a matrix, a mandala of human souls, and what I saw was that what we call our Higher Self in each of us is a matrix. It's also a conduit to the Source; each one of us comes directly, as a direct experience from the Source. We all have a Higher Self, or an oversoul part of our being. It revealed itself to me in its truest energy form. The only way I can really describe it is that the being of the Higher Self is more like a conduit. It did not look like that, but it is a direct connection to the Source that each and every one of us has. We are directly connected to the Source.

So the light was showing me the Higher Self matrix. And it became very clear to me that all the Higher Selves are connected as one being, all humans are connected as one being, we are actually the same being, different aspects of the same being. It was not committed to one particular religion. So that is what was being fed back to me. And I saw this mandala of human souls. It was the most beautiful thing I have ever seen. I just went into it and, it was just overwhelming. It was like all the love you've every wanted, and it was the kind of love that cures, heals, regenerates."

http://near-death.co...arnation04.html

Art

These NDEs could be a result of a chemical, DMT, being released from the pineal gland during death in large amounts. There seems to be quite a few similarities in these NDEs compared to those who have consciously taken DMT.

DMT from experiences I have read up on does give a sensation of universal oneness and others have claimed to see beings and such from angels to types of aliens to even two-dimensional beings they have witnessed in a two-dimensional world.

There is evidence of a "third-eye" which is inscribed on some old Jewish ruins and others around the world. This third eye is sometimes linked towards these experiences. To be able to see with your mind through the use of this psychedelic. I tend to agree with you on how the possibility of monotheism which come out through these experiences.


#36    kmt_sesh

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 03:33 AM

A few things to consider, which may echo material other posters have contributed but it all bears consideration.

First, the Hebrews were an entirely separate ethnic group from the Egyptians. The languages, traditions, religions, and material culture of the two groups are distinct and recognizable. The origin of the ancient Egyptians represent a genetic blend of North Africans, as cormac mentioned in an earlier post. To that I would add prehistoric populations from the southern Levant, who settled largely in Lower Egypt. Egypt solidified into a state in around 3100 BCE, and developed mostly independently and without foreign incursions for the next 1,400 years. This is why the pharaonic Egyptian culture is so distinct in flavor, and is why its traditions remained so fixed for more than 3,000 years.

The exact origins of the Hebrews are not as clear, and the debate persists. However, nearly all modern scholars agree that the Hebrews originated in Canaan and Transjordan. This happened only at the end of the Bronze Age (c. 1200 BCE) but centuries passed before a cohesive, recognizable, cultural entity emerged that we could call Israel. Some element of Israelite people seems to have existed in the late thirteenth century BCE, based on the victory stela of Merneptah (c. 1207 BCE), but what "Israel" meant at that time is not clear. Going by how the Egyptians described the earliest Hebrews, they appear to have been a loose grouping of nomadic or semi-nomadic people. Whatever the case may be, the victory stela seems to point toward the very earliest beginnings of a people who were seeing themselves as something different from their Canaanite kin.

Prominent scholars like Israel Finkelstein and Amihai Mazar might disagree on specific points but share a consensus that the Hebrews did not come from a foreign land. This is the gist of the point I'm making: the Israelites emerged as a culture right there in Canaan. Definitely not Egypt. William Dever has argued that the Hebrews emerged from coastal Levantine city-states during the turbulent period of collapse at the end of the Bronze Age, and I find a lot of credibility in his position. Finkelstein has demonstrated through his own exhaustive archaeological excavations and analyses that there were previous movements of people in the Levant going back to the Early Bronze Age (c. 3000 BCE), during which populations settled in the lowlands and highlands of the Levant and fluctuated between pastoralism and urbanism; the Hebrews were just one more example of this.

What's clear in the archaeology of the Holy Land is that the material culture of nearly all periods and peoples of the Levant points to shared traditions and cultures. The Hebrews were no different. Although they quickly developed distinctive cultural practices like the proscription against consuming pork, the way they lived, the tools they used, the ceramics they produced, and other hallmarks show little difference from their Canaanite neighbors. Even the old identification of the four-chambered house as being distinctly Hebraic has been laid aside, as similar architecture has been excavated from purely Canaanite contexts.

I strongly agree with questionmark that the earliest Hebrews were not a homogenous group. They were more than likely a mix of people, including Canaanites, Sashu, Syrians, and other Western and Northern Semites. However it happened that these people banded together to create a new culture that became noticeably different from the others, it happened only because of the collapse of the key powers at the end of the Bronze Age. The power vacuum left behind by the fall of the Hittites and the weakening of the Babylonians and Egyptians, allowed new territorial states to develop in the Early Iron Age.

Sorry to drone on to such a degree, but this is a debate I've always enjoyed: the emergence of the Hebrews. On a note more specific to some things that have been mentioned in this discussion, the Hyksos and the Hebrews definitely were not the same group. I can't stress that enough. While the Hyksos were predominantly Canaanites, this does not imply or establish a connection. The Hyksos were strongly polytheistic, as is attested by their shrines, temples, and burials. Moreover, they came onto the scene and disappeared from the scene a very long time before the first Hebrews emerged.

Several years back I started a discussion on the mistaken notion that the Hyksos and Hebrews were the same people; the discussion also includes the same misconceptions about the Habiru. For those interested, the discussion can be reviewed here.

The word "Amen" cannot be used as a line of evidence, either. I've seen posters mention this for many years now, and in numerous different forums to which I've belonged. In the Hebrew language "Amen" is a declaration used in prayer. In ancient Egypt it was the name of an important god. However, it must be stressed that the spelling "Amen" for the Egyptian god is an artificial construct drawn from the skeletal consonants used in the hieroglyphs. We are not certain what the vowel sounds may have been for this god, which is why in Western languages today the name is also spelled as Amon and Amun. I personally favor the last, for no reason I can explain. The name is transliterated as aimn or imn, but that's as much of the pronunciation as we have. In ancient Egyptian the name meant "Hidden One."

Akhenaten has been mentioned in this thread. Some posters have done a good job dismissing any connections between his religion of Atenism and the later Hebrew religion, but I will stress that no evidence for Hebrews is extant for the period of Akhenaten (Dynasty 18, fourteenth century BCE). The so-called Amarna Letters, which date to the time of Amnuhotep III and Akhenaten, reveal no hint of a Hebrew-like people in the Levant. And perhaps most importantly, large-scale proscriptions against Akhenaten and his form of religion began almost immediately after his death and were vigorously pursued in the early Ramesside period of Dynasty 19. In all likelihood, by the time the Hebrews were becoming a recognizable culture, they would've had no idea who Akhenaten was. It's safe to say few Egyptians would've, for that matter.

All told, the Hebrews emerged in the Early Iron Age from the Levant itself. There is little reason to doubt this. While ancient Egypt no doubt had some influences on the early Hebrews and how their state and culture developed, the Hebrews were neither Egyptians nor, to be certain, a carbon copy of pharaonic Egypt.

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#37    kmt_sesh

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 03:35 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 28 January 2013 - 11:20 PM, said:

It is known Jews settled on Elephantine Island.

But that will only muddle genetic research.

People moved to and fro, but some people fail (or are unwilling) to understand that.

The Hebrew settlement on Elephantine dates to either late in the Late Period or in the Ptolemaic Period. I can't recall the precise date right now, but it was very late in pharaonic history. Many Hebrews migrated to Egypt during the Late Period to serves as mercenaries in the pharaoh's army, alongside Greeks and other foreigners.

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#38    Eldorado

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 04:42 AM

Who cares?


#39    coolguy

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 05:02 AM

Alien that was a cool video kinda like monty python lol.iam a huge 3 stooge fan lol


#40    Abramelin

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 10:20 AM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 31 January 2013 - 03:35 AM, said:

The Hebrew settlement on Elephantine dates to either late in the Late Period or in the Ptolemaic Period. I can't recall the precise date right now, but it was very late in pharaonic history. Many Hebrews migrated to Egypt during the Late Period to serves as mercenaries in the pharaoh's army, alongside Greeks and other foreigners.


The Elephantine papyri are caches of legal documents and letters written in Aramaic, which document a community of Jewish soldiers, with perhaps an admixture of Samaritans, stationed here during the Persian occupation of Egypt. They maintained their own temple (also see House of Yahweh), evincing polytheistic beliefs, which functioned alongside that of Khnum. The association of the god of Israel with Khnum, a ram-headed deity, is reminiscent of the blowing the ram horn at Rosh Hashanah.

The Jewish community at Elephantine was probably founded as a military installation circa 650 BC during Manasseh's reign, to assist Pharaoh Psammetichus I in his Nubian campaign (See Investigating the Origin of the Ancient Jewish Community at Elephantine: A Review. ) The documents cover the period 495 to 399 BC.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Elephantine

http://www.ancientsu...lephantine.html


#41    kmt_sesh

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 07:00 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 31 January 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

The Elephantine papyri are caches of legal documents and letters written in Aramaic, which document a community of Jewish soldiers, with perhaps an admixture of Samaritans, stationed here during the Persian occupation of Egypt. They maintained their own temple (also see House of Yahweh), evincing polytheistic beliefs, which functioned alongside that of Khnum. The association of the god of Israel with Khnum, a ram-headed deity, is reminiscent of the blowing the ram horn at Rosh Hashanah.

The Jewish community at Elephantine was probably founded as a military installation circa 650 BC during Manasseh's reign, to assist Pharaoh Psammetichus I in his Nubian campaign (See Investigating the Origin of the Ancient Jewish Community at Elephantine: A Review. ) The documents cover the period 495 to 399 BC.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Elephantine

http://www.ancientsu...lephantine.html

That would make sense. The Hebrew mercenaries who served the Egyptian king would've built a temple for their community, too. So it was indeed in the Late Period.

It's always been interesting to me that while so many foreigners who migrated to Egypt took up an Egyptian lifestyle and worshipped Egyptian deities, the Jewish people who migrated there remained loyal to Yahweh and brought his cult with them to Elephantine.

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#42    questionmark

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 07:07 PM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 31 January 2013 - 07:00 PM, said:

That would make sense. The Hebrew mercenaries who served the Egyptian king would've built a temple for their community, too. So it was indeed in the Late Period.

It's always been interesting to me that while so many foreigners who migrated to Egypt took up an Egyptian lifestyle and worshipped Egyptian deities, the Jewish people who migrated there remained loyal to Yahweh and brought his cult with them to Elephantine.

After the 7th century we begin to find a lot of evidence for the existence of Jews, problem is the time prior.

And the time frame also makes sense as it is after the occupation of Samaria by the Babylonians when Samaritans fled to the South (Judah, Egypt).

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#43    Abramelin

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 03:25 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 26 January 2013 - 02:09 PM, said:

I know his ideas are heavily disputed, but when I combine his conclusion about the origin of the Hebrews with the ideas from Dr Nissim Raphael Ganor

http://www.unexplain...owentry=26483  

who thinks that the Phoenicians and the Hebrews are one and the same people and originating from Arabia, then it suddenly seems to become a possibility.

Btw, I have the Dutch edition of Kamal Salibi's book.

.

It gets better, lol:


One highly tenuous theory, is by Professor Kamal Salibi's of American University in Beirut. In his 1985 book Bible Came from Arabia, he compares place names in the Bible with names in Arabia today, and concludes that Palestine had absolutely no historical Hebrew presence,and rather South West Arabia is what the Bible refers to as Israel! Moreover, Moses and Pharoah were not in Egypt, but rather in Yemen!Egypt in the Bible is not today's Egypt, ...etc.

To bring both sides of the argument to the table, I have to mention that I received an email in April 2005 from Dr. Bernard Leeman stating the following:

(...)

I have just published "Queen of Sheba and Biblical Scholarship," (AWP,New Jersey) which concludes that Kamal Salibi's hypothesis is correct - that ancient Israel and Judah until 722 and 586 BCE were indeed in Western Arabia. Chaim Rabin's work (1951) (which Salibi didn't consult) on Ancient West Arabian concludes that there is too much Hebrew in certain South West Arabian dialects to be coincidental (in the same area that Salibi locates the Old Testament) . Also the map referencecs, ancient legal code and other items in the Sheba-Melelik cycle of the Ethiopic (Ge'ez) Kebra Nagast support Salibi. Roger Schneider's discovery of Sabaean inscriptions near Mekele in Ethiopia not only confirms the presence there of Hebrews ca 800 BCE but also the narrative of the Kebra Nagast.

There is a lot more evidence, and Salibi should be taken very seriously, even though it means a major reassessment of faith-based history.

http://baheyeldin.co...men-theory.html


The summary in that link is no longer, but it's on the Internet Archive:

http://web.archive.o...ds/salibims.htm



And here you can download Leeman's book for free:


Queen of Sheba and Biblical Scholarship
©2005 by Bernard Leeman


All rights reserved
Queensland Academic Press
PO Box 227
Darling Heights
Queensland 4350
Australia


Readers have full permission to copy, distribute, and sell this book either in print or as a CD.

http://www.free-mind...files/Sheba.pdf


#44    Abramelin

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 06:53 PM

Some images from the pdf in my former post:

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#45    Knight Of Shadows

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 07:47 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 04 February 2013 - 06:53 PM, said:

Some images from the pdf in my former post:

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obviously the author is ignorant of names meanings no offense intended
for example Jeddah through history could mean 3 things based on how it proununced in arabic
1- by " kaser " the letter J it means the name of the tribe leader named Jeddah son of Jaram son of Rayaan son of son of son of
2- by " dam " the letter J it means in " the shore " which was the name mentioned by couple of historians and the traveller " ibn batota "
3- by " fatah " the letter J it means " the mother of father and mother " as in imply to the place where adam and eve have met

ps : those " kaser . dam . fatah " are addition to arabic language called " tashkeel "

now if we compare those possiablites of the name to " Judah " i think we'll find them very different
this is mere example if you can give me the simliarites in other names i could look it up for you and tell you that a single letter ..
even single " tashkel" on top of that letter makes the meaning very different

we can't based something as great as history on mere name similiarties
especially when that name of Jeddah has been way before there was any" Judah " or kingdom of judah
you're comparring jeddah .. which had a name for around 3000.BC
to a name " Judah " that emerged only  around 900 BC

let along the different meanings .. the time void is too big

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