Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

[Alter2Ego]

ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

I am a Christian and have the deepest respect for God's inspired Word, the Judeo-Christian Bible. I invite fellow Christians to participate in the questions for discussion. Two of the most basic teachings in Christendom are as follows:

1. THE TRINITY

The teaching that God is split up into three individual persons that are combined into one "Godhead" (Father, Son, and holy ghost/holy spirit). All three of these persons are said to be CO-EQUAL (meaning they have the same power) and CO-ETERNAL (meaning they have always existed at the same time and none of them can die).

2. HELLFIRE

The teaching that God will burn a person's soul in everlasting hellfire for committing wicked deeds. In other words, God will supposedly punish people forever in fiery flames of hell--despite the fact the crimes the persons committed were only done during the persons' brief human lifespan.

QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION:

1. Are there scriptures in the Bible to support the teachings of Trinity and hellfire? If so, present the scriptures by giving Bible book, chapter, and verse and also explain why you believe the scripture you present is talking about Trinity or literal hellfire.

2. Why are these teachings found in pagan/false religions that never worshipped the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible? For instance there were pagan trinities at least 200 years before Jesus came to the earth as a human.

A. In the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Egypt had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Horus, (2) Osiris, and (3) Isis.

B. Likewise, in the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Babylon had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Ishtar, (2) Sin, and (3) Shamash.

C. In fact, during the 1st century AD when Jesus was on earth, Palmyra, which was an ancient city in Syria, had a triune god which consisted of (1) moon god, (2) Lord of Heavens, and (3) sun god.

3. If the Trinity and hellfire are Bible teachings, why is it that Jesus and his apostles who followed him around never taught anyone about the Trinity and literal hellfire?

4. How is it that both the Trinity and hellfire teachings did not become "Christian" teachings until the Roman Catholics copied both of them from pagan/false religions--AFTER the resurrected Jesus Christ returned to heaven?

5. If hell is a place of literal fiery torment, how is it that the Bible says Jesus went to hell for the entire three days that he was dead?

"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that HIS SOUL WAS NOT LEFT IN HELL, neither his flesh did see corruption." (Acts 2:31--King James Version)

6. If hell is a place of literal torment, why is it that the word "hell" also means "Sheol" and "Hades" and "the grave"?

7. Does the Bible teach that humans have an immortal soul that survives the death of the person so that the soul can then be burned in eternal flames? If so, please present scriptures to this effect to prove it.

8. Are the words "Trinity" and "Godhead" in the Bible? If so, were those words part of the original writings?

[Likely Guy]

Sorry Alter2Ego.

If you're only going to "invite fellow Christians to participate in the questions for discussion"; I, as the pragmatic agnostic that I am, am 'out of here'.

Bye bye.

Edited May 5, 2013 by Likely Guy

[SHaYap]

^ Hey ... wait up ...

[Frank Merton]

I think the Bible is "scripture," since it is believed by so many to be so, but that only means it should be treated with great respect. Therefore, I have studied it in the past and read a few books about it. I agree with you that it is not possible to demonstrate clearly that the Bible teaches either Hell or the Trinity as they are generally taught. There are a few passages that can be argued in favor of these traditional teachings, and a lot more that seem to say the opposite (that God is greater than Jesus, etc.).

This is a fundamental problem with trying to take anything written in any human language as somehow the infallible Word of God. Each person reading a text reads into it what they want to read into it or what they have been taught to read into it, and all languages are human inventions and hence with all sorts of built-in potential for ambiguity, figures of speech, metaphors, hyperbole, poetic license, mistranslation, tampering, and so on.

[Mr Walker]

_{The clearest illustration of the nature of the trinity is when god speaks to christ on earth via the holy spirit. From memory this happens when christ is baptised by john and god the father says via the spirit, " My son i am most pleased with you"}

_{Thus there are at times 3 separate and distinct elements of god. But at the same time in genesis and other parts of the bible there is a a statement that the word was with god and the word was god "The word" is the incarnation of jesus/christ as the creative aspect of god. Words had physical creative power to early peoples.}

_{In revelation jesus comes in a third form as an "avenging angel" on a horse and weilding a sword.}

_{Thus throughout the bible we build up an overall picture of the nature of god . It includes (1)what christians call god the father. (2)Another creative spirit who came down to earth as the son of god and as a man; and (3) an energy being which can manifest physically and also enter into human beings, and is called, by christians, the holy spirit. BUT these things are linked as one being, just as our mind physicla body and self aware spirit are linked together. Unlike us however they can separate these elemants of themself and operate independently.}

_{I know god the father and the holy spirit quite well, but as far as I know i have never encountered christ the creative/'redemtive spirit. In my life, God manifests creative miracles which might be seen as coming from christ but to me they seem to come directly from god. As a human being it is hard to differentiate between the power and abilities of god the father, and god the son.}

_{As to hell, that is clearly NOT a biblical concept as most peole recognise it. The bible says tha , on death all humans go to sleep to await the resurrection days. After being judged they either have eternal life or die the second and final death of body and soul There is no biblical concept of eternal everlasting punishment either.}

Edited May 5, 2013 by Mr Walker

[Alter2Ego]

I think the Bible is "scripture," since it is believed by so many to be so, but that only means it should be treated with great respect. Therefore, I have studied it in the past and read a few books about it. I agree with you that it is not possible to demonstrate clearly that the Bible teaches either Hell or the Trinity as they are generally taught. There are a few passages that can be argued in favor of these traditional teachings, and a lot more that seem to say the opposite (that God is greater than Jesus, etc.).

ALTER2EGO -to- FRANK MERTON:

There are no passages in the Judeo-Christian Bible that are proof of trinity or literal hellfire torment. Of course that has not stopped Trinitarians and hellfire howlers from attempting to apply scriptures to the aforementioned false teachings.

This is a fundamental problem with trying to take anything written in any human language as somehow the infallible Word of God. Each person reading a text reads into it what they want to read into it or what they have been taught to read into it, and all languages are human inventions and hence with all sorts of built-in potential for ambiguity, figures of speech, metaphors, hyperbole, poetic license, mistranslation, tampering, and so on.

ALTER2EGO -to- FRANK MERTON:

That may be so, but the text itself does not agree with what each person chooses to read into it. By paying attention to the context (the surrounding words, verses, and chapters), one is able to get the single correct meaning of what the text is actually saying. In other words, the problem is not the Bible. The reason why people read what is not there is because they ignore context. They cherry pick a few words from entire verses, while they ignore everything else. When the context is paid attention to, it soon becomes clear that the verses are not saying anything about trinity or literal hellfire torment.

[Frank Merton]

Although I agree with your overall statements about what the writers of the Bible thought, I have seen verses that others with different views often cite. I don't doubt that you could give them a good argument, but my point is that what the text may say and what the reader may read are not necessarily the same, and that this is a problem with any text we cite authoritatively.

As a result, I don't think we should treat scripture as infallible, because to be so the reader must also be infallible. Instead treat scripture as useful, God-inspired if you will, or at a minimum the writings of holy and wise men.

[Alter2Ego]

_{The clearest illustration of the nature of the trinity is when god speaks to christ on earth via the holy spirit. From memory this happens when christ is baptised by john and god the father says via the spirit, " My son i am most pleased with you"}

_{Thus there are at times 3 separate and distinct elements of god. But at the same time in genesis and other parts of the bible there is a a statement that the word was with god and the word was god "The word" is the incarnation of jesus/christ as the creative aspect of god. Words had physical creative power to early peoples.}

ALTER2EGO -to- MR WALKER:

The only part of your comment I agree with is that portion where you use the expression "separate and distinct." According to Christendom's definition of trinity, Jehovah the Father, Jesus Christ the created Son, and God's holy spirit are the same god combined into a single "Godhead" and--get this--they are all co-eternal and co-equal.

If you can find any scripture that proves God, Jesus, and the holy spirit are the same god and that they are co-equal and co-eternal, please present it by quoting it verbatim. Be sure and provide Bible book, chapter, and verse. Then bold the words within the quotation where you are seeing Christendom's version of trinity. Lastly, explain why the bolded words from the quotation are saying what you believe they are saying. Can you do that?

[Frank Merton]

To Mr. Walker

My main problem with the Trinity is that nowhere in the NT is the teaching made explicit, and I cannot imagine the failure to do so of such a central doctrine. The word "Trinity" does not even appear, nor do phrases like "God the Son," or "Three in one," and so on. You only infer it from suggestions that can be interpreted many ways.

It seems reasonable to me that a century or so after the Gospels were born comparisons between this Jesus and other cult-heads started being made, and Jesus was seen to come off poorer, so they developed the teaching in comparison with many other similar "trinities" that existed back then in order to "elevate" Jesus to godhood and make him more "salable." Now of course the way I just expressed it would not be what happened. Instead, these Christians felt an insufficiency, saw the trinities around them, and thought, "Now that is the way it must have been."

[Alter2Ego]

Although I agree with your overall statements about what the writers of the Bible thought, I have seen verses that others with different views often cite. I don't doubt that you could give them a good argument, but my point is that what the text may say and what the reader may read are not necessarily the same, and that this is a problem with any text we cite authoritatively.

As a result, I don't think we should treat scripture as infallible, because to be so the reader must also be infallible. Instead treat scripture as useful, God-inspired if you will, or at a minimum the writings of holy and wise men.

ALTER2EGO -to- FRANK MERTON:

I suspect you do not understand the meaning of the word "infallible." Below is the definition of "fallible."

fallible

The definition of fallible is capable of making mistakes or errors.

(adjective)

Imperfect people who are capable of making mistakes are an example of people who would be described as fallible.

http://www.yourdictionary.com/fallible

Scriptures being misinterpreted by someone does not make the scripture itself fallible. Something is only fallible when the error is within the writing itself. For instance, if you took a recipe from a cookbook and left off some of the ingredients, whose fault is it that your resulting product did not come out right? Is it because the cookbook was fallible (the error is within the cookbook's writing), or is it because you are fallible (you made the mistake of leaving out part of the recipe)?

Now, use that same example with the Bible. You are putting the fault on the scriptures rather than on the reader when you say the above. If the error is not within the Bible but instead is because the reader ignored some of the words that are part of the "recipe," how can you successfully argue that the Bible is fallible? Whose fault is it that the Trinitarian and hellfire howler deliberately ignored words and sentences (part of the "recipe) within the context? Is it God's fault or the Bible's fault if people are lacking in reading-comprehension skills? When the previously ignored words (the context) are included in the reading, it soon becomes clear that the scriptures are not talking trinity and literal hellfire torment.

[Beany]

^ Hey ... wait up ...

I'm right behind you. If you're not quick, I may pass you up.

[Frank Merton]

My point seems to have gone past you -- there can be no such thing as infallible scripture. It is a logical impossibility because it is written in fallible languages and read by fallible people.

[+Paranoid Android]

HI Alter2Ego,

There's 8 questions you've put up for discussion, some of which overlap, and some of which I disagree with. Instead of addressing your 8 points of discussion, I'd rather address two points, if you don't mind - The Trinity; And Hellfire!

Point 1- The Trinity: I think a link would far better state my beliefs than any personal input. So click THIS LINK, for interest. I own the book (Concise Theology) in which this article forms a part, and greatly respect the research of J.I. Packer

Point 2- Hellfire: In the previous thread you started I tended to agree with you that hell is not a place of torturous fire. To this post I'm going to attach an essay I wrote several years ago on the matter. Your thoughts and criticisms are appreciated

Opposite of Heaven UM copy.doc

Edited May 5, 2013 by Paranoid Android

[Mr Walker]

ALTER2EGO -to- MR WALKER:

The only part of your comment I agree with is that portion where you use the expression "separate and distinct." According to Christendom's definition of trinity, Jehovah the Father, Jesus Christ the created Son, and God's holy spirit are the same god combined into a single "Godhead" and--get this--they are all co-eternal and co-equal.

If you can find any scripture that proves God, Jesus, and the holy spirit are the same god and that they are co-equal and co-eternal, please present it by quoting it verbatim. Be sure and provide Bible book, chapter, and verse. Then bold the words within the quotation where you are seeing Christendom's version of trinity. Lastly, explain why the bolded words from the quotation are saying what you believe they are saying. Can you do that?

Certainly i could show that god the father and god /christ or the word are one But you would have tio accpe ttha tthe words of the bible show that christ IS the word of god.

Christ as man on earth is NOT representative of the nature of christ the angel, or word, in heaven.

But it is irrelevant really. First I do not care what you believe about the trinity I tis not important to your "salvation" or critical to your ongoing relationship with god. And second I know god personally and physically as a mentor friend protector etc I have known the power of the holy spirit in my body and know its many positive effects. I have felt the power of god in my mind as we meet mind to mind and in my body as a part of me I have benefited greatly from this. i would not be aive without gods presence.

Everthing I have, and am, is due to god, and god's presence has empowered and transformed me from a "mere mortal man" into a part of god. In doing this it has freed me from the human traps of pain suffering anger etc and filled my life with power joy etc.

And so, for me, the trinity is also, in a way irrelevant, except for this. Humans are a trinity themsleves, and we are modelled on god. And the whole bible story from alpha to omega illustrates the diverse and complex nature of god. God IS a trinity, in the sense that a human being is a trinity; body (physical entity) self aware and directed mind and a physical and conscious spirit/will. Other than that, it doesnt really matter. Believe as you will, but stay connected to god in an ongoing personal connection and relationship with him..

In my experience, god christ and spirit, are all a part of one greater entity. And they are coequal and coeternal in the same way that our body mind and spirit are linked into a coequal and coeternal whole. But in god's case his nature allows him also to separate these pieces so that they can exist independently This is how his spirit can enter us or his mind can link with ours.

But thengod is neither human nor male and is a very different being, physically, to what we are. "He" is a being, in which energy, consciousness, and matter, exist interchangeably at his will.

Edited May 5, 2013 by Mr Walker

[Jor-el]

ALTER2EGO -to- FRANK MERTON:

There are no passages in the Judeo-Christian Bible that are proof of trinity or literal hellfire torment. Of course that has not stopped Trinitarians and hellfire howlers from attempting to apply scriptures to the aforementioned false teachings.

Contrary to your opinion there is more than enough evidence to provide contextual proof within he bible and also ancient Jewish sources regarding the Trinity.

One such source of the many that I can possibly choose from is a simple and direct quote from the bible that you cannot ignore.

Ecclesiastes 12:1

Remember also thy Creators in days of thy youth, While that the evil days come not, Nor the years have arrived, that thou sayest, 'I have no pleasure in them.'

So do we have more than one creator or not?

Another, off the top of my head...

A very detailed account of God appearing as man to Abraham is recounted in Genesis 18.

Genesis 18:1-2

1The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.

In the very same account we find the following passage:

16 When the men got up to leave, they looked down toward Sodom, and Abraham walked along with them to see them on their way.

17 Then the LORD said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do?18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him. 19 For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is right and just, so that the LORD will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him."

20 Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know."

Notice Gods question and then God answering the question asked by HIMSELF?

Unless we want to accuse God of not being altogether there, we must accept that the textual context refers to two entities called God.

Immediately following this conversation we have in Genesis 19:24 a very interesting phrase...

Genesis 19:24

Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens.

How many Lords are there?

According to the text the are TWO of them. One in the form of a man who was with Abraham and one in Heaven. It is clear in the text word for word and I'm not inventing it.

And guess what, they are both called Yahweh...

[Mr Walker]

To Mr. Walker

My main problem with the Trinity is that nowhere in the NT is the teaching made explicit, and I cannot imagine the failure to do so of such a central doctrine. The word "Trinity" does not even appear, nor do phrases like "God the Son," or "Three in one," and so on. You only infer it from suggestions that can be interpreted many ways.

It seems reasonable to me that a century or so after the Gospels were born comparisons between this Jesus and other cult-heads started being made, and Jesus was seen to come off poorer, so they developed the teaching in comparison with many other similar "trinities" that existed back then in order to "elevate" Jesus to godhood and make him more "salable." Now of course the way I just expressed it would not be what happened. Instead, these Christians felt an insufficiency, saw the trinities around them, and thought, "Now that is the way it must have been."

That is possible, yet the bible in certiain specific pasages and in overlall context strongly suggests a trinitarian type of god. For my personal comments based on my own experiences with god, see my previous post.

PAul/sau,l who reshaped the direction of early christianity, had an experience which illustrates the nature of the trinity. A part of god entered into him. And yet god remained the same . How did god "extrude" a part of his consciousness into a mortal man in a way as to be clear to that mortal man, and yet remain god. How did, indeed, god become a man on earth, imbuing that being with all the powers of god, and creating a man who could not die until he surrendered (quite clearly and verbally) the holy spirit? How could such a mortal shell be physically reborn, and at the same time transformed, unless a part of god could enter into him?

it is very difficult to accept the totality of biblical christianity unless you accept a form of trinitarian god. Otherwise you have to see the holy spirit and christ as entirely separate entities, and yet they are not always so.

Christ is called the son of god, and christ on earth (materially) was the physical son of god (according to scripture) but the equivalent of christ -not as a man, but as an entity in heaven was not the son of god but a part of him (the word) As to the spirit. jn 4 24 says that god is a spirit, yet the bible also says that god walked the earth as a man, and appears in other physical shapes and forms, a moving finger, fire, light, etc.

[Jor-el]

2. HELLFIRE

The teaching that God will burn a person's soul in everlasting hellfire for committing wicked deeds. In other words, God will supposedly punish people forever in fiery flames of hell--despite the fact the crimes the persons committed were only done during the persons' brief human lifespan.

5. If hell is a place of literal fiery torment, how is it that the Bible says Jesus went to hell for the entire three days that he was dead?

"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that HIS SOUL WAS NOT LEFT IN HELL, neither his flesh did see corruption." (Acts 2:31--King James Version)

6. If hell is a place of literal torment, why is it that the word "hell" also means "Sheol" and "Hades" and "the grave"?

7. Does the Bible teach that humans have an immortal soul that survives the death of the person so that the soul can then be burned in eternal flames? If so, please present scriptures to this effect to prove it.

I have to ask, do by any chance know anything of Hebrew and Koine Greek?

The reason is that your questions reveal a certain ignorance of those ancient languages and you seem to be going by a purely English version of the bible. Since the English version is not the original how do you know that you are quoting scripture correctly from a translation?

Simple point of evidence, is the quote you provided, the original Greek text does not say hell.

New International Version (©2011)

Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay.

English Standard Version (©2001)

he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.

The actual word used in the Greek text is ᾅδην which is translated "hades", it is not Hell.

6. If hell is a place of literal torment, why is it that the word "hell" also means "Sheol" and "Hades" and "the grave"?

It isn't it is a mistranslation of the English translation you are using. And you missed another half dozen words that can be added to those three...

Sheol is the same as Hades - It is the abode of the dead, the place of all departed spirits saved and unsaved. One is Hebrew, the other is Greek for the same place.

Tartarus is a specific location within Hades / Sheol, it is most often referred to as a pit or an abyss, the deepest place within Hades, another reference calls it "a bottomless pit", where the angels who left their own habitation (positions of authority) are imprisoned, chained until the day of judgment. as can be seen in Jude 1:5-6.

Gehenna is also a specific place within Hades / Sheol, it where the lost suffer as can be seen in Luke 16:19-31. But it is not hell.

Paradise (also known as the bosom of Abraham) is also a place within Hades / Sheol, it is also once again referenced in the same scripture above.

None of these terms are equivalent to hell in any way form or shape... Hell is only referenced in Revelation 20. It is the term we use to reference one specific phrase, "The Lake of Fire" and it was never created with the intent to punish human beings, it was created by God for judgment of the angels, Babylon implicitly (Revelation 17:16; 18:9-10; 19:3), and the beast, the false prophet and the dragon explicitly.

It is, as Jesus said, "prepared for the devil and his angels" (Mt 25:41).

All of the earthly human followers of the dragon, the false prophet and the beast are thrown into the lake of fire, 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

It then tells us that the lake of fire is the 2nd death, which means a resurrection of all people is understood as well.

Now interpretations differ. Some view this as eternal suffering, others as a place of destruction or nonexistence and yet others of eternal separation from God, they effectively cease to exist for him, but continue to exist somewhere never to return to Gods awareness.

Either way, the lake of fire is hell.

[Alter2Ego]

My point seems to have gone past you -- there can be no such thing as infallible scripture. It is a logical impossibility because it is written in fallible languages and read by fallible people.

ALTER2EGO -to- FRANK MERTON:

You are now doing what's known as wash, rinse, and repeat--while telling me your personal opinion of why the Bible is fallible. The Bible writers were inspired by an infallible God to write. They were simply the secretaries taking instructions to write. In other words, they were not the ultimate source of the writings in the Judeo-Christian Bible. Jehovah, the infallible God, is the source and it was he that inspiried them to write.This is confirmed by the Bible itself.

"{16} ALL SCRIPTURE is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, {17} that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

~***~

[Alter2Ego]

Certainly i could show that god the father and god /christ or the word are one But you would have tio accpe ttha tthe words of the bible show that christ IS the word of god.

Christ as man on earth is NOT representative of the nature of christ the angel, or word, in heaven.

But it is irrelevant really. First I do not care what you believe about the trinity I tis not important to your "salvation" or critical to your ongoing relationship with god. And second I know god personally and physically as a mentor friend protector etc I have known the power of the holy spirit in my body and know its many positive effects. I have felt the power of god in my mind as we meet mind to mind and in my body as a part of me I have benefited greatly from this. i would not be aive without gods presence.

Everthing I have, and am, is due to god, and god's presence has empowered and transformed me from a "mere mortal man" into a part of god. In doing this it has freed me from the human traps of pain suffering anger etc and filled my life with power joy etc.

And so, for me, the trinity is also, in a way irrelevant, except for this. Humans are a trinity themsleves, and we are modelled on god. And the whole bible story from alpha to omega illustrates the diverse and complex nature of god. God IS a trinity, in the sense that a human being is a trinity; body (physical entity) self aware and directed mind and a physical and conscious spirit/will. Other than that, it doesnt really matter. Believe as you will, but stay connected to god in an ongoing personal connection and relationship with him..

In my experience, god christ and spirit, are all a part of one greater entity. And they are coequal and coeternal in the same way that our body mind and spirit are linked into a coequal and coeternal whole. But in god's case his nature allows him also to separate these pieces so that they can exist independently This is how his spirit can enter us or his mind can link with ours.

But thengod is neither human nor male and is a very different being, physically, to what we are. "He" is a being, in which energy, consciousness, and matter, exist interchangeably at his will.

ALTER2EGO -to MR WALKER:

I have no doubt of your sincerity and that the above is what you believe. But sincerity alone is not enough. So as soon as you can produce the scriptures that indicate Jehovah (the Father), Jesus Christ (the Son), and God's holy spirit are three persons that are all the same god, and they are three "persons" that are co-equal and co-eternal, be sure and post it in this thread.

Don't forget to provide Bible book, chapter, and verse so the rest of us can find it. And be sure and bold the words that you are focusing on within each scriptural quotation. Let's start with your four (4) best examples of scriptures that you believe are proof of trinity.

Edited May 5, 2013 by Alter2Ego

[Jor-el]

ALTER2EGO -to MR WALKER:

I have no doubt of your sincerity and that the above is what you believe. But sincerity alone is not enough. So as soon as you can produce the scriptures that indicate Jehovah (the Father), Jesus Christ (the Son), and God's holy spirit are three persons that are all the same god, and they are three "persons" that are co-equal and co-eternal, be sure and post it in this thread.

Don't forget to provide Bible book, chapter, and verse so the rest of us can find it. And be sure and bold the words that you are focusing on within each scriptural quotation. Let's start with your four (4) best examples of scriptures that you believe are proof of trinity.

Do you deny that the son is God? and that the Holy Spirit is God as well?

If you do, deny this then do you agree that as such Jesus Christ cannot under any circumstances share the same titles as given to God?

Edited May 5, 2013 by Jor-el

[Alter2Ego]

Contrary to your opinion there is more than enough evidence to provide contextual proof within he bible and also ancient Jewish sources regarding the Trinity.

One such source of the many that I can possibly choose from is a simple and direct quote from the bible that you cannot ignore.

Ecclesiastes 12:1

Remember also thy Creators in days of thy youth, While that the evil days come not, Nor the years have arrived, that thou sayest, 'I have no pleasure in them.'

So do we have more than one creator or not?

ALTER2EGO -to- JOR-EL:

There is only ONE Creator, Almighty God Jehovah. You presented a deliberate translation blunder above. Notice the same verse from five different Bibles.

"Remember your Creator in the days of your youth, before the days of trouble come and the years approach when you will say, "I find no pleasure in them--" (Ecclesiastes 12:1 -- New International Version)

"Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them;" (Ecclesiastes 12:1 -- King James Version)

"Remember also your Creator in the days of your youth, before the evil days come and the years draw near when you will say, "I have no delight in them"; (Ecclesiastes 12:1 --New American Standard Bible)

"Remember thy Creator in the days of thy youth, before the time of affliction come, and the years draw nigh of which thou shalt say: They please me not:" (Ecclesiastes 12:1 -- Douay-Rheims Bible)

"Remember also your Creator in the days of your youth, before the evil days come, and the years draw near, when you will say, "I have no pleasure in them;" (Ecclesiastes 12:1 --New American Standard Bible)

All of the Bibles that I quoted, above, are Trinitarian Bibles. But as anyone can see, even they did not take the liberty of making the word "Creator" plural, as with the version you quoted above. You are quoting from Young's Literal Translation, which has gone overboard with its fabrication by turning "Creator" into "Creators." The original Hebrew word בוראך Borecha is singular for "Creator."

[Jor-el]

ALTER2EGO -to- JOR-EL:

There is only ONE Creator, Almighty God Jehovah. You presented a deliberate translation blunder above. Notice the same verse from five different Bibles.

"Remember your Creator in the days of your youth, before the days of trouble come and the years approach when you will say, "I find no pleasure in them--" (Ecclesiastes 12:1 -- New International Version)

"Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them;" (Ecclesiastes 12:1 -- King James Version)

"Remember also your Creator in the days of your youth, before the evil days come and the years draw near when you will say, "I have no delight in them"; (Ecclesiastes 12:1 --New American Standard Bible)

"Remember thy Creator in the days of thy youth, before the time of affliction come, and the years draw nigh of which thou shalt say: They please me not:" (Ecclesiastes 12:1 -- Douay-Rheims Bible)

"Remember also your Creator in the days of your youth, before the evil days come, and the years draw near, when you will say, "I have no pleasure in them;" (Ecclesiastes 12:1 --New American Standard Bible)

All of the Bibles that I quoted, above, are Trinitarian Bibles. But as anyone can see, even they did not take the liberty of making the word "Creator" plural, as with the version you quoted above. You are quoting from Young's Literal Translation, which has gone overboard with its fabrication by turning "Creator" into "Creators." The original Hebrew word בוראך Borecha is singular for "Creator."

Got you.....

What I posted was the literal translation from the Hebrew...

What you posted were the mistranslations because of the discomfort of some people in admitting the existence of this verse...

12 Remember also thy Creators in days of thy youth, While that the evil days come not, Nor the years have arrived, that thou sayest, `I have no pleasure in them.'

Uwzkor 'et- bowrª'eykaa biymeey bªchuwroteykaa `ad 'ªsher lo'- yaabo'uw yªmeey haaraa`aah wªhigiy`uw shaaniym 'ªsher to'mar 'Eeyn- liy baahem cheepets—

Bowrª'eykaa is a plural participle and is literally "your Creators."

Hey don't believe if you want but I think this link is demonstrative of my case. http://parsha.blogspot.pt/2008/05/behar-rabbenu-bachya-sefirot-and-elilim.html

Just for your ease of understanding the relevant word creator (creators) is rendered בּ֣וֹרְאֶ֔יךָ

[Jor-el]

Certainly i could show that god the father and god /christ or the word are one But you would have to accept that the words of the bible show that christ IS the word of god.

Christ as man on earth is NOT representative of the nature of christ the angel, or word, in heaven.

But it is irrelevant really. First I do not care what you believe about the trinity I tis not important to your "salvation" or critical to your ongoing relationship with god. And second I know god personally and physically as a mentor friend protector etc I have known the power of the holy spirit in my body and know its many positive effects. I have felt the power of god in my mind as we meet mind to mind and in my body as a part of me I have benefited greatly from this. i would not be aive without gods presence.

Everthing I have, and am, is due to god, and god's presence has empowered and transformed me from a "mere mortal man" into a part of god. In doing this it has freed me from the human traps of pain suffering anger etc and filled my life with power joy etc.

And so, for me, the trinity is also, in a way irrelevant, except for this. Humans are a trinity themsleves, and we are modelled on god. And the whole bible story from alpha to omega illustrates the diverse and complex nature of god. God IS a trinity, in the sense that a human being is a trinity; body (physical entity) self aware and directed mind and a physical and conscious spirit/will. Other than that, it doesnt really matter. Believe as you will, but stay connected to god in an ongoing personal connection and relationship with him..

In my experience, god christ and spirit, are all a part of one greater entity. And they are coequal and coeternal in the same way that our body mind and spirit are linked into a coequal and coeternal whole. But in god's case his nature allows him also to separate these pieces so that they can exist independently This is how his spirit can enter us or his mind can link with ours.

But thengod is neither human nor male and is a very different being, physically, to what we are. "He" is a being, in which energy, consciousness, and matter, exist interchangeably at his will.

Hi Mr. Walker let me help you out with a number of verses that do demonstrate that you are correct and that Jesus is indeed God.

The Cloud Rider used by Jesus and of Yahweh himself

The very term "Cloud Rider", is a statement of Deity. Specifically of one particular Deity, Yahweh himself.

Isaiah 19:1 (ESV)

19 An oracle concerning Egypt.

Behold, YAHWEH is riding on a swift cloud,

and comes to Egypt;

and the idols of Egypt will tremble at his presence,

and the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them

Deuteronomy 33:26 (ESV)

26 “There is none like EL, O Jeshurun,

who rides through the heavens to your help,

through the skies in his majesty.

Psalm 68:33 (ESV)

33 to Him who rides in the heavens, the ancient heavens;

behold, he sends out his voice, his mighty voice

Psalm 104:3 (ESV)

3 He lays the beams of his chambers on the waters;

he makes the clouds his chariot;

he rides on the wings of the wind;

Daniel 7:9-14

9“As I looked,

“thrones were set in place,

and the Ancient of Days took his seat.

His clothing was as white as snow;

the hair of his head was white like wool.

His throne was flaming with fire,

and its wheels were all ablaze.

10A river of fire was flowing,

coming out from before him.

Thousands upon thousands attended him;

ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.

The court was seated,

and the books were opened.

11“Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire. 12(The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time.)

13“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

The language is not symbolic, the Cloud Rider is none other than God himself!

Notice especially Daniel where the ancient of Days (God) is seated on his throne when "one like a son of man" (human being) comes into his presence. He is given dominion over all men and the WORSHIP him!

So to whom exactly did God give his authority, his power and his dominion?

So who is the Cloud Rider?

Matthew 26:64-68

And the high priest said to him, “I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.”

64Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

65Then the high priest tore his robes and said, “He has uttered blasphemy. What further witnesses do we need? You have now heard his blasphemy. 66What is your judgment?” They answered, “He deserves death.” 67Then they spit in his face and struck him. And some slapped him, 68saying, “Prophesy to us, you Christ! Who is it that struck you?”

The answer hasn't changed it seems... the answer is still God.

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Ancient of Days Title for God and reference to Jesus

Daniel 7:13

In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence."

Micah 5:2

But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel, whose coming forth is from of old, from ancient days.

"But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity."

Daniel 7:9

"As I looked, "thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of Days took his seat. His clothing was as white as snow; the hair of his head was white like wool. His throne was flaming with fire, and its wheels were all ablaze.

Titles of God are clear markers of who is considered divine and Deity. It seems the Messiah is considered in this way, the reference can only be of him and of Yahweh himself, there can be no confusion in the parallel.

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Mighty God, The everlasting Father

Isaiah 9:6

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Every Christian knows this verse is a reference to Jesus and yet the very same verse is calling him mighty God and The everlasting Father. There can be no doubt, if one tries to say this is not Jesus one has to abandon Christian doctrine the messiah. Either this is a reference to the messiah or to God, the context forces us to accept both.

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The Alpha and Omega, The beginning and End

Revelation 1:8

8“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Revelation 22:12-16

12“Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

14“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

16“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Revelation 21:1-7

1Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth, " for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

5He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

6He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children.

There is no way that anyone can deny that the term is used by God and by Jesus himself, thus Jesus is God and God is a unity of more than one being. I challenge anyone to deny these verses do not say what they do...

How does the saying go?

Q.E.D.

Edited May 5, 2013 by Jor-el

[Alter2Ego]

Got you.....

What I posted was the literal translation from the Hebrew...

What you posted were the mistranslations because of the discomfort of some people in admitting the existence of this verse...

12 Remember also thy Creators in days of thy youth, While that the evil days come not, Nor the years have arrived, that thou sayest, `I have no pleasure in them.'

Uwzkor 'et- bowrª'eykaa biymeey bªchuwroteykaa `ad 'ªsher lo'- yaabo'uw yªmeey haaraa`aah wªhigiy`uw shaaniym 'ªsher to'mar 'Eeyn- liy baahem cheepets—

Bowrª'eykaa is a plural participle and is literally "your Creators."

Hey don't believe if you want but I think this link is demonstrative of my case. http://parsha.blogsp...and-elilim.html

Just for your ease of understanding the relevant word creator (creators) is rendered בּ֣וֹרְאֶ֔יךָ

ALTER2EGO -to- JOR-EL:

You didn't get anybody. The changing of "Creator" to "Creators" at Ecclesiastes 12:1 is found only in modern Bibles. In the ancient text, it is written in the singular. And if you are going to rely on a single verse of scripture--that clearly is a translation blunder--you are not going to get very far in proving trinity as being a Bible teaching. Especially when the dogma is debunked by scripture after scripture, throughout the Judeo-Christian Bible.

Edited May 5, 2013 by Alter2Ego

[Mr Walker]

ALTER2EGO -to MR WALKER:

I have no doubt of your sincerity and that the above is what you believe. But sincerity alone is not enough. So as soon as you can produce the scriptures that indicate Jehovah (the Father), Jesus Christ (the Son), and God's holy spirit are three persons that are all the same god, and they are three "persons" that are co-equal and co-eternal, be sure and post it in this thread.

Don't forget to provide Bible book, chapter, and verse so the rest of us can find it. And be sure and bold the words that you are focusing on within each scriptural quotation. Let's start with your four (4) best examples of scriptures that you believe are proof of trinity.

It is not my job to convince you,or to even try and alter your beliefs. You can take that a a cop out if you wish.But it has a much more positive intent.

By the by, Jorel has produced many verses which can clearly be intepreted in the overall context of the bible as pointing to a god who is 3 separate entiities who yet are one. I've already explained how i see humans as also being of this model. There are 3 distinct parts to us yet we are one whole being. Consciousness, Physical body, and energy and other systems which connect mind and body.

While years of reading and study leads me to think of god as trinitarian, the same conclusions might not be clear to you. That's ok The bible is NOT the infallible word of god It is the understanding of god presented by men and women some of whom walked with god. And it IS very difficult to interpret. The important thing for an individual to do is first, study the bible, open their heart and mind to god and do their best to understand it. The second thing is NOT to ever take another person's word for what the bible says or for the nature of god No matter what authority that person seems to have.

God appears to humans in many ways and forms. That is the observable nature of god. He might well seem different to you and I.

Edited May 5, 2013 by Mr Walker