591 replies to this topic

[Sean93]

Paranoid Android, on 22 December 2012 - 12:11 AM, said:

I personally don't see that.  This is the stereotype and it sometimes seems that people like to categorise the OT God as a violent maniac and the NT God as a cuddly teddy bear.  I honestly don't think either of these views is correct.  God in the Old Testament is a lot more loving than people give credit, and God in the New Testament is likewise a lot more judgemental than people give credit.  God shows love and forgiveness constantly in the Old Testament.  God preaches judgement and death constantly in the New Testament.

If there is a difference in the two testaments I would put it down to a matter of expediency - God's judgement was often immediate in the Old Testament whereas in the New Testament the judgement is promised to come one day in the future when our eternal lives are at stake.  That doesn't mean that God isn't less judgemental, and if you think about it it could even be said to be worse since our eternal souls are at stake - that was not at stake in the Old Testament.  

Whichever way you look at it, I find the stereotype of God in the Old and New Testaments to be utterly false.

I agree with you on God being both loving and violent in both books but he does seem more harsh to me in the OT and I think this is so because it was basically Yahweh Version 1.
Jesus came along and wanted to upgrade him and improve him and so decided to depict him as a little nicer while still maintaining some of the madness and authority E.G. Ananias and Sapphira, the Fate of King Herod and the entire book of Revelations. Those are the only major accounts of God killing or planning to kill people in the NT whereas it's clear the OT contains a lot more such as The Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, Onan, Lots wife, The first-born's of Egypt at the hands of the Angel of Death,  a few plagues wiping out a thousands, kids being mauled by bears and a few other accounts but you get the idea...maybe he just had more reasons to rain down his 'justice'.  

Of course you could just as easily say that God was slowly revealing himself and just by chance, never had to be as rough on the NT generation; Kinda' like conditioning us until we learnt, first he had to be tough and then when our rears had been spanked enough, they'd be nice and conditioned to gods big hand...until Revelations comes about that is.  

I'm not saying God has to be fair to everyone, he doesn't...he's God after all, he can do what he likes as he has shown many ties before hand.

[HavocWing]

Sean93, on 21 December 2012 - 06:13 PM, said:

Do any of you feel that the God from the OT and the god from the NT are different dudes?

The OT god is a maniac while the one in the NT is all "Love, love love!" (with as bit of madness thrown in for plot purposes)

Of course in the OT he does show ability to 'change his ways' like when he says "Never again will I send floods to destroy life" - he must have realised soon after..." Hold up just a minute...I'm nuts!"

I thought of them both as narcissistic madmen.  The god of the NT sanctions the end of the world.  That right their tells you something is wrong with him.  The god of the OT seems like he is pure hate and the most sadistic person to have ever existed.

Edited by HavocWing, 22 December 2012 - 01:01 AM.

[Paranoid Android]

Sean93, on 22 December 2012 - 12:47 AM, said:

I agree with you on God being both loving and violent in both books but he does seem more harsh to me in the OT and I think this is so because it was basically Yahweh Version 1.
Jesus came along and wanted to upgrade him and improve him and so decided to depict him as a little nicer while still maintaining some of the madness and authority

I can't agree with that.  As I noted in my last post, if there is a difference it is in the immediacy of God's actions - the Old Testament showed judgement immediately whereas the New Testament shows judgement promised throughout eternity.  I wouldn't call it an "upgrade", I'd say it's an entirely organic and natural progression that came about as a result of Jesus' death and (alleged) resurrection.

Sean93, on 22 December 2012 - 12:47 AM, said:

I'm not saying God has to be fair to everyone, he doesn't...he's God after all, he can do what he likes as he has shown many ties before hand.

True enough.

[HavocWing]

If he truly is a just god (which he isn't I.M.O.) then he would have to treat everyone fairly.

[pitchp]

big topic this one. But yes the bible has been altered by man, I gave up on the bible, but i haven't given up my faith!

[Rlyeh]

pitchp, on 22 December 2012 - 08:14 AM, said:

big topic this one. But yes the bible has been altered by man, I gave up on the bible, but i haven't given up my faith!

Well man did make it.

[Paranoid Android]

HavocWing, on 22 December 2012 - 12:58 AM, said:

If he truly is a just god (which he isn't I.M.O.) then he would have to treat everyone fairly.

Not at all.  Divinity does not, IMO, necessitate that said being treats everyone "fairly".  With that said, if I were to give a biblical answer as to God's treating us fairly then I would have to study and get back to you.  My instincts say that God does treat us all fairly, but I honestly haven't looked at a biblical point of view on this before.  I suspect that before the discussion would be over it would require at least a passing question to whether treating everyone "fairly" is the same as treating everyone "equally" (not always the same thing).  But I'd have to study it before I gave it my "PA Stamp of Approval".  But whatever I may find in my study on this, on a purely intellectual level, there is nothing in the characteristic of divinity that demands said being thus treats its creation fairly.  That's all I was responding to in my previous answer.  Best wishes,  

~ Regards,

[Ben Masada]

Reann, on 21 December 2012 - 02:18 PM, said:

@Ben Masada
even though God is this force , this spirit, this energy that we can not ever explain nor understand, i do however think that if God wants to he can have a part of him . his identity, his nature, his will, to appear in human form , as in Christ. i don't believe Christ was  the entire  existence of God but i do believe in the story of the angel , Mariam and Christ.

I agree with you 100%. God can do anything and all things but one; the thing we wish He did or should have done; at least just to satisfy our preconceived notions. If you read Deuteronomy 4:15,16, God has never been seen in any form of a man or of a woman. Therefore, to claim that God took the form of a man in Jesus is a contradiction to God's Word. Unless, you assert that these things
are to be accepted by faith. Then again, by faith, every thing is possible.

Ben

[Ben Masada]

Sean93, on 21 December 2012 - 06:13 PM, said:

Do any of you feel that the God from the OT and the god from the NT are different dudes?

The OT god is a maniac while the one in the NT is all "Love, love love!" (with as bit of madness thrown in for plot purposes)

Of course in the OT he does show ability to 'change his ways' like when he says "Never again will I send floods to destroy life" - he must have realised soon after..." Hold up just a minute...I'm nuts!"

God is absolutely One and He is not subject to time and space. He is the same either during the time of the OT or during that of the NT. And God is not like a man to change His mind or Himself for that matter. Therefore, all the adjectives you present above that point to changes of personalities and emotions in God are all in the agenda of the members of the literal interpretation club of believers of talking serpents. No wonder atheists laugh at their immature attitude.

Ben

[Ben Masada]

Sean93, on 21 December 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

Also, the argument that 'Human Error is responsible for the flaws in the bible is a cop-out of the highest order.

Surely if the writers of the bible were inspired by God, then God would actually make sure they didn't go off on a tangent and start writing all manner of crazy stories; unless of course even the bible recordings were done with free will and god did not prevent them authors from misquoting him. ("Hey I never said that; you can wear that 50% polyester, 50% Nylon fleece if you want!)

I think it's fairly evident that it all fell into the classic game of Telephone. One guy tells a story, then another hears it and tells it and another tells it from the second guy who changes it slightly (intentionally or not) and the rest is (badly written) history.

Bad written history is a common trait everywhere and an all-time fact, including in the Bible. If we take that angle, we might as well quit all books on earth. The point is to know how to read in terms of just not to take everything literally.

Ben

[Ben Masada]

HavocWing, on 22 December 2012 - 12:58 AM, said:

If he truly is a just god (which he isn't I.M.O.) then he would have to treat everyone fairly.

God has absolutely nothing to do with the way we are treated. We treat ourselves good or bad according with the law of cause and effect. Whatever we sow that's what we will harvest.

Ben

[Sean93]

Ben Masada, on 28 December 2012 - 08:35 PM, said:

Bad written history is a common trait everywhere and an all-time fact, including in the Bible. If we take that angle, we might as well quit all books on earth. The point is to know how to read in terms of just not to take everything literally.

Ben

But the bible is God's ultimate and powerful word...and he let it be tarnished in such a way?

Also people interpret different verses of the Bible as literal or metaphorical, there is no agreed consensus of which story is liter and which is not.

Edited by Sean93, 28 December 2012 - 09:41 PM.

[Ben Masada]

Sean93, on 28 December 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:

But the bible is God's ultimate and powerful word...and he let it be tarnished in such a way?

Also people interpret different verses of the Bible as literal or metaphorical, there is no agreed consensus of which story is liter and which is not.

That consensus is according to preconceived notions.

[Sean93]

Ben Masada, on 28 December 2012 - 09:59 PM, said:

That consensus is according to preconceived notions.

I'll not even go into that one.

[scowl]

Ben Masada, on 28 December 2012 - 08:40 PM, said:

God has absolutely nothing to do with the way we are treated. We treat ourselves good or bad according with the law of cause and effect. Whatever we sow that's what we will harvest.

The Bible is full of stories of God exterminating people He didn't like as well as innocent people who happened to be in the way of those people. Plagues, droughts, earthquakes, and a large flood was God choosing to murder people who did not do what He wanted in many cases without warning.

The Bible is also full of stories of God protecting and supporting people who have acted in deceitful ways, at least by our moral standards (Cain, Jacob, Samson, and others).

Oddly we mere humans now have higher moral standards than God did.