582 replies to this topic

[Bluefinger]

Beckys_Mom on Jun 2 2008, 05:46 PM, said:

Well yea that's just how I look at it, I guess thats why it hurt so much


Well maybe you have a point, and you are right I did have such high expectations for god, high enough to have my trust broken down.

  Trust is an important thing to have.  I can imagine now that you have talked to me, that you have a deeper understanding of God?

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Sometimes I ask myself WHY? why this story? why didnt I do the same a number of months ago when I mourned over a 4 yr old (from Scotland)..that was handcuffed by her mother and her mothers BF and beaten to death, and there was a social worker that previously had reported no abuse on that child, yet I knew people were concerned enough to call the social workers, so I was angered at the social worker, as to why he or she couldnt see that people just dont throw in complaints of concern on child abuse for the sake of calling.

  God calls us different ways and to different things.  If it never phased you, you were never really awake to it.  Just like a dream, we all know we're sleeping, but the dream feels real.  When we wake up, we feel so different, and sometimes upset.

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I was so angry back then too, but why wasn't i angry at god? why did I still hold on to my faith?? ....could it be that I thought it was just a slip up and prayed hard to god to put a stop to it?

  Again, just expectations. There is a huge reason that Jesus said love your enemies.  God doesn't just want the righteous, BM, he wants the evil doers too.  He wants them to stop doing evil.  No evil, no problem. Getting rid of evil people doesn't do.  Humanity's heart needs to change.

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I did that yes, I prayed for justice and I asked god to make it so that the goverment will crack down on how these situations when a social worker is sent in and reports nothing, and later a child is killed and found old injuries, then I hoped the social worker is also held responsible and jailed for neglect of duties, also to keep a watch on single parents and other parents who have a track record of drugs and abuse...just like the father that beat the 3 yr old he had one....yet my prayers felt as though they fell on deaf ears....(ps I wrote letters to the goverment too..ohh and emails but got nothing back)

  I used to feel that way.  I have to keep reminding myself that God doesn't do what I want because He has to.  If it gets done, its because He wants to.  I can't convince Him to.  He is His own person.  God never served until He came as Christ.  And when He did, it wasn't what people expected.  The Israelites expected deliverance from Rome.  Rome and sin had the same effect on people, they just didn't see.

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I then ask myself......Why am I so concerned over other peoples children...I NEVER EVER used to be..ever!!..so what has happened to me..why am I so concerned and take it all to heart?
Again..I do not know, all I know is for some reason I believed there was just one being that I could trust....one true being to help...and you know the rest!

  You are concerned because you have grown to be.  Just like I child puts away childish things and becomes an adult, doing adult things,  you have put away selfish things and have become more involved.  Beside, having children is the least selfish thing anyone can do.  You then give your time, energy, and love over to someone else than yourself.

I can't tell you how much I would like that but it looks doubful........I think it is because I am just ONE person, and maybe God dont listen to one person  <--I dunno!!

  I am just one person.  And God listened to me.  Why did He work differently with me?  I don't know.  He chose to.

So I then wonder...what if I still believe in a god but not one that is all loving and all mighty?  <-it will save future anger...I cant blame someone who cant do what I once thought...

  Thats the same as saying that you want to go to a restaraunt but do not want food.  Love and might are a part of who God is.  Its a distinct feature of all the universe.  What good is a god that is not all loving and mighty enough to support that?  Our universe would have no hope if that were so.

That I can say I have done...I admitted I am lost, and I don't see it as a weakness, I am not ashamed of saying I feel lost...if you ever need to sort out a problem, then the 1st step is to admit it right?................and about the shepherd thing...I dont really understand what you are saying...maybe you can explain what that all means...sorry for that

  What I'm saying is that if you are God's child, then being mad at Him is not going to stop you from running to Him when He calls you.  You and God would then have a special bond.  You'll feel free to complain to God without having to disbelieve in His existence.  However, you and your God need to know each other.  And thats an issue that many slam their breaks on.  Many think, why would God want to know me?  He doesn't want to see who I really am!  I wouldn't like it!  He wouldn't want to take part in it all.  But you know what?  I think Jesus is saying, "BM, not only do I want to know you, but I want to take part in all you do, and I want take all that mess in your life and clean it up, and I want to live life with you!"  Do you think you could do that?  If you do not hear God's voice, then maybe you don't know Him well enough and maybe He doesn't know you well enough.  

I then think...ok god dont give the answer to WHY? but at least show a sign of justice...is that too much to ask?

  Why is the answer WHY the one that scares people the most?  WHY is the most important answer!  Choices are based of WHY and choices are what gives us free will from the rest of nature.  If God always gave people what they deserved, then everyone would be doomed.  I know its hard, but try to pray for these people, that they stop doing such horrible things.  Justice will be served eventually, whether its on the heads of the godless or on the cross that Jesus hung from.

Thank you Bluefinger...you got me thinking...and its a start

PS I hate to say this...it will sound so horrible...but part of me wishes I didn't have any love for children  (appart from my own)...I think it causes me to be this way and its a feeling I don't need
Ye know, if you had of told me a week ago - BM you will loose that faith and be angered at god...I would have called you a lair and maybe gotten angry at such a statement for I never would have believed it...

You are welcome BM.   Thinking is a very good start.  I believe that you have not lost faith, but have just got to know God better.  I have a question:  Do you ever go to Church or get instruction about God?  Maybe this is why all this is too much for you:  Because you don't know God beyond what you expect of Him.  Take care and God bless

[JoeyBombs]

Karlis on Jun 2 2008, 03:38 PM, said:

Hi JB,  

Firstly I must sincerely disagree with your phrase-in-bold-type. God cares a great deal for Mankind. You may ask, "Why?" -- and the answer is wonderfully clear: God is in the process of bringing forth children ... children who will in due time be born as immortal spirit beings in God's family.

Now, if that sounds like an extravagant assumption, then please do some reaserch about this idea, within the books of the bible. The answer is NOT blowing in the wind.

Regards,
Karlis

Karlis - That may be the most ridiculous thing I've ever read

Bringing forth children who will become immortal beings in Gods Family!!!
What the f....?

The reason God cares for mankind is that he's creating Immortal beings?
Is that what you're trying to tell me?
Where are they then?
Am I one?

If he cares so much why is their all the bad sh** going on everywhere?
Oh yeah that's right.... He shows he cares be creating these non-existant immortal children

I don't blame God
I've got RE qualifications and have served at mass - I've seen religion up close

Then I got to the age of reason - and reasoned that religion is ridiculous!

Karlis - I'm sorry... but you're diluded
GOD DOESN'T CARE

Read it - believe it
Look outside your window on see it
Turn on your TV and witness it

It's out there my friend

[graylady2]

Yetihunter on May 25 2008, 08:35 PM, said:

The thing that gets me is how you could somehow blame God for the man's actions.

Entering late in this thread...so if this has already been said...well...oops.

No one is faulting god for the man's actions - god is being faulted for not protecting an innocent child, who was tortured by that maniac.

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Remember, God gave us the freedom to choose and act on our own.

If true, one might think that god should exercise his freedom to protect a child from such pain and terror. Instead, a blind eye is turned - and a child died horrifically.
Hmmm - who wouldn't want to heap praise upon such an entity?

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If it hurts us, how do you think it makes God feel?  He loves that little girl a heck of a lot more than you or I do.  His heart is broken over this event, and now that little girl is resting comfortably in his loving arms.

You know, if I, or anyone with an scintilla of compassion, saw this happening to a child we *would* intervene. But your god doesn't. That, imo, makes me more godly than the entity you're extolling.

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In many ways I feel that this world is almost without any common decency anymore.

If god can't display common decency toward a child why would you expect mere mortals to? Why don't you chastise god for his lack of decency, instead of us mortals?

[Sherapy]

Beckys_Mom on Jun 2 2008, 04:22 PM, said:

That sheri is a good question.....but as I am still trying to figure things out, it seems to be a question that given time, I might be able to give an answer to

Here is a queer thought....I wondered....could this whole - love children thing be some kind of spell? let me explain  (yes it sound so out there lol)....but a few years ago..I didnt bat an eye when I head such horror stories in the past

I am guilty of saying things like - "I dunno why women cry over miscarriages for, it's not as if they got attached or anything, I think these women are just seeking attention over nothing"
and... "sigh ...why cant parent keep their screaming babies out of my site and out of stores, they are so annoying"... ohh and I was famous for this one -- "I don't need a child to bring happiness into my life, I am happy, I don't need a screaming brat to make things better, heck I think a baby makes your life worse"...and on several occasions I told a few women in work this - "thank god I don't have the need for children, they drag you down, you aren't free, no life, I have better things to do"

YES on my childs life on any of my loved ones life...YES I was that horrible..........one girl carrie said - "Geri one of these days you are in for a shock, KARMA will play a role and you WILL get your eyes opened, you'll see"  <--she said this along with name  calling for my cocky attitude....I laughed at her...

SOON after that...I found myself instead of turning in the other direction when I saw a mother and child come my way, I was over admiring the baby   goodness what is happening...I shrug that off...but it got to be more and more..then out of the blue I said to gary after 10 years - "I want to be a mom" thinking did I just say that?!!!   <--the very look on my face when I realized what I had said lol

Before I knew it sheri....I was fighting to get pregnant and worse i lost my 1st child due to miscarriage..and OMG did I ever get to feel what it was REALLY like...I got a shock alright

the love for children felt like it just SPRUNG on me........what that girl carrie said was right and I thought WOW this IS KARMA biting me hard in the a**...

it still has me puzzled.........I now believe im not alone....

the same thing I guess happened to me with god and religion..........I thought i was better than others with my faith in god....I was cocky to some believers on here too...now look at me...is this KARMA???
I dont know, it sure could be

this is why I hope NO ONE and I mean NO ONE looses their faith..I don't wish for the same thing to happen to them....its scary...and I seriously mean that.....but I cant say if those who are cocky and have the ego I had with faith...I don't know if they will get a shock...I just hope they dont
I wouldn't say all of this, if I didn't mean it...could this god be all about KARMA??? hmmmmmm

this will  come  as no surprise to you but i have outgrown the idea of karma ( now at one time i beleived it)

I think cause and effect are bascially the same thing..but that is for another thread..


I suggest an alternative called perceptual learning, perhaps we exeprince what we expect to experience...and as woman its 'odd'  for the majority to run across the occassional woman who isn't ready for kids and perhaps we feel we need good reasons...Geri even as a mother our kids can be brats, they 'are' a huge commitment and what was once our life no longer is ...

perhaps what we dont' hear enough  of  is how worth it it is and how much joy a child brings  and what a delightful surprise that you  are exeprincing why so many have kids and wouldn't change it for a sec........
how manyy people say i used to  roll my eyes at the parents  who talked about johhnys first poop etc until it happneed to me.. perhaps as a culture  we share in alot of the ssame experinces have the same expectations.... after all we are conditioned ...

funny i used  to say how i would  rather  have my toenails pulled out than be a stay at home Mom.. i felt it would  somehow take away 'my modern woman' trip I was on.....

I just coudln't beleive a woman would  choose to stay home with her kids, what clean house all day no thanks........

then my hubby  suggested I do just  that, (that I could  always go back to work if I couldn't handle it) that  perhaps the best for our kid was his mother and maybe I should  give it a try.(let him make the money he could manage without me LOL) funny how much we come to apprecaite things when we experince it ourselves.........

its been a  great journey for me i am so happy i can't stand it and  who would  of thought  , i certainly wouldn't of and it was really me that decided and defined how this would go by what i beleived......

i think our beleifs shape our  perceptions and experinces,they  color our lives perhaps we want to be diligent on the ideas we choose to call' our beleifs.............

IMO one lets go of faith geri and moves to trust and you my friend are about to see for yourself that there is life beyond faith....how fun....... maybe karma is changing your mind, maybe karma is compassion  and the ability to walk in anothers shoes, maybe karna says we are all in this togehter  hell my guess is as good as the next guys ......

Edited by Supra Sheri, 03 June 2008 - 03:52 PM.

[itsnotoutthere]

'Why doesn't God help'....cause basically he ain't there.

Not long after the tsunami several years ago, I had the misfortune to tune into an American evangelical program, & witnessed three prim & proper Hilary clinton lookalikes discussing the tragedy, & all smuggly coming to the conclusion that the reason for all those innocent deaths was the result of mans evil brought back on themselves. This to me pretty much summed up modern fundamental christianity, & confirmed my suspicions.

Edited by itsnotoutthere, 03 June 2008 - 04:31 PM.

[ASOP]

Jesus the son of GOD knew that he would give his life for us he was also a young man not a 4 yr old child. GOD is to be almighty he can do anything at any time right? Children are abused and murdered everyday and we are aware of these horrible things so making it "aware" dont cut the ice people know of these acts already just turn on the news read the paper look around you. The point is GOD saving a child / children from such terrible pain and torture how can he look down on this child and let this be? GOD can do anything why not spare the children. Im not saying spare us all I just think what God can watch this happen to a child why not take her/him before the torture,pain,suffering......why. What has this child or any child done they are free of sin just as Jesus.

[Beckys_Mom]

***HI...listen guys...I would like to address - BLUEFINGERS post..its long but there is a lot to go through...along with sheri's and a few other posts I do indeed wish to answer.
..but I can't address them tonight, I have recieved so much more work to do and I need to get on it...believe it or not it's for a church to help them raise money (long story )

but I will get back and see what I can do on each post addressed to me...I look forward to returning to this thread to see what I can do to reply...so please don't think I am ignoring you

Thank to ALL that have sharred thoughts...

for now...i'll be back later

Geri

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 03 June 2008 - 09:43 PM.

[Bluefinger]

JoeyBombs on Jun 3 2008, 06:35 AM, said:

Karlis - That may be the most ridiculous thing I've ever read

Bringing forth children who will become immortal beings in Gods Family!!!
What the f....?

The reason God cares for mankind is that he's creating Immortal beings?
Is that what you're trying to tell me?
Where are they then?
Am I one?

If he cares so much why is their all the bad sh** going on everywhere?
Oh yeah that's right.... He shows he cares be creating these non-existant immortal children

I don't blame God
I've got RE qualifications and have served at mass - I've seen religion up close

Then I got to the age of reason - and reasoned that religion is ridiculous!

Karlis - I'm sorry... but you're diluded
GOD DOESN'T CARE

Read it - believe it
Look outside your window on see it
Turn on your TV and witness it

It's out there my friend

Getting rid of evil people doesn't solve the problem.  If the cops take out a gang leader, another will step in with more cruelty than the last.  How is this God's fault?  Because he doesn't stop evil?

Perhaps you keep making up excuses for humanity and blame it on God when something evil isn't stopped.  Humanity is corrupted.  Evil has to stop in the heart before it is stopped for good.  Otherwise, it keeps happening.  

Ever cut weeds with a weed eater?  They just keep growing.  Thats because the root has not been removed.  Therefore, stopping evil people from doing evil things does not stop evil people from still being evil.  That wouldn't be free will.  The dillemma is not in preventing evil when it happens.  Its removing evil altogether so that it won't ever happen nor will the person feel inclined to do so.  And that starts in the heart.

Edited by Bluefinger, 04 June 2008 - 03:09 AM.

[Sherapy]

Beckys_Mom on Jun 3 2008, 02:42 PM, said:

***HI...listen guys...I would like to address - BLUEFINGERS post..its long but there is a lot to go through...along with sheri's and a few other posts I do indeed wish to answer.
..but I can't address them tonight, I have recieved so much more work to do and I need to get on it...believe it or not it's for a church to help them raise money (long story )

but I will get back and see what I can do on each post addressed to me...I look forward to returning to this thread to see what I can do to reply...so please don't think I am ignoring you

Thank to ALL that have sharred thoughts...

for now...i'll be back later

Geri

I look forward to your response geri

[HelloHello]

"Why doesn't God help?" =) simple!

God does help and when He's not helping He literally cannot.
You must remember God gave us free will to make this world whatever we wish it to be.
If God interfered with your life struggles He'll be going against His word of free will. It's kind of like a father telling his son "I'll take you to a Maroon 5 concert!I promise!" and not doing it. =]

We made this world the way it is, we have to deal with it.

[momentarylapseofreason]

HelloHello on Jun 5 2008, 01:57 AM, said:

"Why doesn't God help?" =) simple!

God does help and when He's not helping He literally cannot.
You must remember God gave us free will to make this world whatever we wish it to be.
If God interfered with your life struggles He'll be going against His word of free will. It's kind of like a father telling his son "I'll take you to a Maroon 5 concert!I promise!" and not doing it. =]

We made this world the way it is, we have to deal with it.

Hello............hello ?

God does help and when he's not helping he literally cannot ?

So when does god help ? When CAN HE HELP ? Let us know......................

You are BLAMING ALL OF US for all the shait others are doing ! Do you realise this ? It's like blaming an innocent child for his siblings misbehavior.

While I do agree that we all lend a helping hand  (some larger than others) in shaping our world, then how do you explain that there are ALSO sadists, the mentally-emotionally disturbed & murderers in Primates. Could it be Satan ? Is it because they are ALL responsible for the cruelty of other Primates ? I'd say not.
I think it is often a neuro-biological defect that causes these. And the emotional environment can act as a potent ferlilizer to make these negative traits bloom into action/aggression. (in humans)

Brain biology/ chemistry OFTEN differs in the socially distorted. WHY so ? I think because nature is chaotic-imperfect-not planned. And therefore I think with all these ticking time bombs ready to go off, that it makes free will irrelevant.


I do apologize, but this belief system it seems, is like a virus, that wipes out the ability to reason fully.

Edited by momentarylapseofreason, 05 June 2008 - 01:54 AM.

[Karlis]

JoeyBombs on Jun 3 2008, 09:35 PM, said:

Karlis - That may be the most ridiculous thing I've ever read

Bringing forth children who will become immortal beings in Gods Family!!!
What the f....?

The reason God cares for mankind is that he's creating Immortal beings?
Is that what you're trying to tell me?
Where are they then?
Am I one?

If he cares so much why is their all the bad sh** going on everywhere?
Oh yeah that's right.... He shows he cares be creating these non-existant immortal children

I don't blame God
I've got RE qualifications and have served at mass - I've seen religion up close

Then I got to the age of reason - and reasoned that religion is ridiculous!

Karlis - I'm sorry... but you're diluded
GOD DOESN'T CARE

Read it - believe it
Look outside your window on see it
Turn on your TV and witness it

It's out there my friend

Hi Joey B -- Not that the following is likely to change your opinions, but read it anyway.

(ESV) Rom 2:6  He will render to each one according to his works:
Rom 2:7  to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;  


(MKJV)  Joh 5:28  Do not marvel at this, for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves shall hear His voice,
Joh 5:29  and shall come forth, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced evil to the resurrection of condemnation.


(MKJV) Rom 8:11  But if the Spirit of the One who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the One who raised up Christ from the dead shall also make your mortal bodies alive by His Spirit who dwells in you.
…
Rom 8:16  The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God.
Rom 8:17  And if we are children, then we are heirs; heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ …


1Jn 3:2  Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be. But we know that when He shall be revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.


1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.
1Co 15:23  But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit, and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;
…
1Co 15:35  But someone will say, How are the dead raised up, and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36  Foolish one! What you sow is not made alive unless it dies.
1Co 15:37  And what you sow, you do not sow the body that is going to be, but a bare grain (perhaps of wheat or of some of the rest).
1Co 15:38  And God gives it a body as it has pleased Him, and to each of the seeds its own body.
1Co 15:39  All flesh is not the same flesh; but one kind of flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another of fish, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40  There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies. But the glory of the heavenly is truly different, and that of the earthly different;
1Co 15:41  one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
1Co 15:42  So also the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption;
1Co 15:43  it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
1Co 15:44  it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
…
1Co 15:50  And I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51  Behold, I speak a mystery to you; we shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed;
1Co 15:52  in a moment, in a glance of an eye, at the last trumpet. For a trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed.


What are your thoughts, Joey B?
By the way -- did you use similarly coarse language while you were serving at mass. Hope you don't speak like that to your Mom and Dad.

Regards,
Karlis

[graylady2]

HelloHello on Jun 4 2008, 07:57 PM, said:

You must remember God gave us free will to make this world whatever we wish it to be. If God interfered with your life struggles He'll be going against His word of free will.

Oh, please. Free will? Where was that child's free will? Children have no choice - plain and simple. Do you think she wanted to be beaten for 45 minutes so she could die from that beating? Why do some of you always use that "free will" crap when it has absolutely nothing to do with children? Which, I might add, makes your claims of "free will" laughable...

[momentarylapseofreason]

graylady2 on Jun 5 2008, 04:38 PM, said:

Oh, please. Free will? Where was that child's free will? Children have no choice - plain and simple. Do you think she wanted to be beaten for 45 minutes so she could die from that beating? Why do some of you always use that "free will" crap when it has absolutely nothing to do with children? Which, I might add, makes your claims of "free will" laughable...

Exactly, what good did FREE WILL do for the child  ? "Well gosh, that child had been given the FREE WILL to run away "........pity he didn't use it ,huh ?

God had the FREE WILL TO HELP> but yet he didn't >but he will answer other less important prayers of course    

"Yeah, I prayed that god would return my wallet, and he did  !!"

Edited by momentarylapseofreason, 05 June 2008 - 07:54 PM.

[momentarylapseofreason]

Karlis on Jun 5 2008, 12:51 PM, said:

By the way -- did you use similarly coarse language while you were serving at mass. Hope you don't speak like that to your Mom and Dad.

Regards,
Karlis

Here is some more "coarse" language. Enjoy.................

God will "discover thy skirts upon thy face, ... show the nations thy nakedness" and "will cast abominable filth upon thee." 3:4-6

Habakkuk

"Drink thou also and let thy foreskin be uncovered." 2:16

Zephaniah
God will "bring distress upon men" so that they "walk like blind men." He will pour out their blood like dust and "their flesh as dung." 1:17

"Woe to her that her that is filthy and polluted." (Only women are filthy and polluted.) 3:1



Zechariah
"Let the rest eat every one the flesh of another." 11:9

"Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth." 14:12

Malachi

"Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces."



Want some more ?  *edit:  See Source for more

Edited by Paranoid Android, 06 June 2008 - 12:21 PM.
Quote all sources for information, please