The gods vs aliens debate

[UM-Bot]

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Peter Fotis Kapnistos: In 1968, an intriguing theory captured the world’s attention. By chance, two adaptations of a new hypothesis emerged that pondered the possibility of advanced extraterrestrial beings having visited the Earth in the distant past, thereby initiating the foundations of religion. The Swiss author Erich von Daniken is sometimes called the "father of the ancient astronaut theory." His book, “Chariots of the Gods” popularized the argument that ancient aliens interacted with primitive humans. The Swiss born Greek writer and television presenter Giorgio Tsoukalos, seen on History Channel’s “Ancient Aliens,” is the director of von Daniken’s Center for Ancient Astronaut Research.

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[Heroic Bishop]

Interesting article, generally speaking I support the ancient astronaut theory, although which version is indeed accurate is a matter of debate from the wealth of theories, many intriguing arguments featured in the 'Ancient Aliens' series on TV.

I think where the correlation between 'god' and 'aliens' is concerned I have always viewed the way in which the human psyche works as not only a rational explanation for 'Ancient Astronaut' theory, but evidence in itself that it may well have happened.

How many time have we watched TV, and seen aircraft flying around, carrying holiday makers and business people around the world, helicopters flying around on pleasure rides, police patrols etc. How would a civilisation whose mental development and advancement had achieved the horse and cart as the pinnacle of transportation technology, react if they saw the President of the United States land on the White House lawn in Marine One? Stepping down the steps and saluting the soldier awaiting him before approaching the podium and making a speech?

We see that as normality, to those still fine tuning their ancient Bugatti Veyron equivalent Donkey and cart transports, this would be beyond comprehension and they would turn to what they know as a source for rational explanation.

If someone flies..therefore they must have wings as this is the only way you can fly....Angels are born.

If they can from the sky...they came from the heavens...therefore they must be gods, or messengers from him.

This is the basis for many religions in my opinion, and if you look at the possible modern explanations for those things in the bible and other religious texts viewed as myths or apocrypha, could we not find other technological answers within them?

I think that unless we have a..pardon the pun...epiphany, as a race with a piece of evidence so undeniable that the realisation dawns on us all that we are not alone we will constantly be little further beyond our donkey transport.

Nowadays we are no different...we see lights in the sky, or craft like vessels and our minds quickly try to quantify it, granted in a more advanced way...

If someone flies...therefore they are in an aircraft

If they came from the skies....they landed and got out

I think we have along way to go as a species before we can harness this theory of alien visitors now or in the past.

Until then, the theory will be fringe subject that is mainly scoffed by the masses....much like when the earth was widely believed to be flat......and we know how that little gem of accepted wisdom worked out

[Babe Ruth]

Vigilanis

Interesting points you bring up.

I think one of the factors in the equation is that so many humans prefer to close their minds to information that contradicts their world view. Cognitive dissonance, if you will. I think religion encourages that tendency, as all manner of superstitious hogwash is imposed upon them, frequently through their 'faith'.

I think Huck Finn was quite observant when describing faith--it is when you believe something you know ain't true. And so many humans do this.

I think there is no question that we are not the only ones in the universe, and I think that we are pitifully ignorant of so many things. Without question, this planet has been visited by, or inhabited by species other than what we call 'human'.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

I'll be honest, and say that although I don't pay Ancient Astronaut theory much credence beyond offering an interesting intellectual diversion and fodder for Doctor Who/Fringe/Stargate/Transformers/Planetary/etc I do believe that there could very well have been a civilisation before Babylon, something fairly advanced.

[cerberusxp]

Really this fits right in with the book of Urantia. Practically every hypothesis in this article.

[VvROMULUSvV]

The second half of the article about Type IV Civilisations (and i remember now Michio talking about it in an interview i once saw) is insane and instantly did my head in. Definitely going to look into that one..

[badeskov]

Frankly, there seem to be an inability by some columnists (and posters) to look critically at the data used and actually learn as time passes.

In 1968, an intriguing theory captured the world's attention. By chance, two adaptations of a new hypothesis emerged that pondered the possibility of advanced extraterrestrial beings having visited the Earth in the distant past, thereby initiating the foundations of religion. The Swiss author Erich von Daniken is sometimes called the "father of the ancient astronaut theory." His book, "Chariots of the Gods" popularized the argument that ancient aliens interacted with primitive humans. The Swiss born Greek writer and television presenter Giorgio Tsoukalos, seen on History Channel's "Ancient Aliens," is the director of von Daniken's Center for Ancient Astronaut Research.

This is one such example, and unfortunately, one of the really bad ones. No, his "intriguing theory" did not capture the world's attention. Those who actually were well versed in the fields that he dabbled in knew exactly what his so-called theory was from the get go: totally fabricated and utterly wrong. And that has been proven again and again as time went by. How that eluded this columnist I cannot even begin to fathom - unless it is the usual pattern of taking what we like and disregarding what we don't rather that taking what is proven and disregarding what is disproven. <br style="background-color: rgb(233, 233, 233); ">

The American Presbyterian minister Rev. Barry Downing also investigated the connection between UFOs and religious conviction. His book, "The Bible and Flying Saucers," was a groundbreaking hypothesis on the biblical perspective of the UFO phenomenon.

How was that ground breaking? Answer: it was not, except for the few that have a pathological need to tie aliens into religious aspects here on Earth, an unfortunate trait Mr. Kapnistos himself has shown himself rather prone to engage in, evidence or not irregardless.

The von Daniken theory suggests that our primitive ancestors "mistook" alien visitors for gods and produced supernatural belief systems around their encounters. Rev. Downing, on the other hand, says that certain so-called aliens are in fact God's angels or divine messengers sent to Earth, including perhaps Jesus Christ himself.<br style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(233, 233, 233); ">

Both wretched and based on pure fantasies.

Between these two viewpoints has appeared a varied scope of journalism ranging from the Anunnaki, a group of Sumerian and Babylonian deities that supposedly created mankind, to the 1947 UFO incident of Roswell, New Mexico, and more recent lingo like the alleged Face on Mars.<br style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(233, 233, 233); ">

Yes, the lore has been wide and diverse. Face on Mars is not recent lingo, it is from the 1970's.

The ancient astronaut theory in general supposes that alien visitors were advanced mortals that evolved by Darwinist natural selection, and there need be no creator. Bible ufology, in contrast, states that some celestial visitors are eternal beings created by God, who might be at war in space with aggressive alien entities.<br style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(233, 233, 233); "><br style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(233, 233, 233); ">By strict definition, a god is nothing other than an immortal being. Throughout the timeline of anthropology there have been animal gods, humanoid gods, spirit gods, and totem gods. In nearly every case, they were considered to be everlasting.<br style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(233, 233, 233); "><br style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(233, 233, 233); ">The gods could experience death, pain, and human passion, but death could not hold them. Not all gods were good or caring to mankind. A universal premise of the ancient gods was a "generational shift" or handing down of sovereignty from parent to child. In some cases, humans could receive the reward of immortality and become gods or mate with them.<br style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(233, 233, 233); ">

Pretty irrelevant.

...

And I gave up. It hurt my eyes to read the last parts as they as the previous parts contained mostly nonsensical non-connected alien-biblical references. Sometimes I wonder how people can make a living out of writing such drivel.

Cheers,

Badeskov

Edited March 14, 2012 by badeskov

[Royal]

Hi everybody. I would just like to tell you what mystifies me. Somewhere between 10,000 and 2,500 BCE we humans took an evolutionary leap forward {in terms of civilization} that defies logic.Something happened and the only explanation for which there is at least some evidence is the ancient astronaut theory.Could someone prove me wrong?

[A rather obscure Bassoon]

Hi everybody. I would just like to tell you what mystifies me. Somewhere between 10,000 and 2,500 BCE we humans took an evolutionary leap forward {in terms of civilization} that defies logic.Something happened and the only explanation for which there is at least some evidence is the ancient astronaut theory.Could someone prove me wrong?

It is for you believers to convince skeptics like me that you are right.

[Royal]

It is for you believers to convince skeptics like me that you are right.

I am a skeptic until nothing else makes sense.However, if something wont fit into a neat scientific mold then the search has to go outside normal conventions.Point: at the base of the Sphinx there exists a waterline that science tells us was made somewhere between 7-13,000 BCE.I don't know exactly what this tells us,but it says something.

[badeskov]

Hi everybody. I would just like to tell you what mystifies me. Somewhere between 10,000 and 2,500 BCE we humans took an evolutionary leap forward {in terms of civilization} that defies logic.Something happened and the only explanation for which there is at least some evidence is the ancient astronaut theory.Could someone prove me wrong?

I am curious. What kind of leap did humankind take? Can you explain that, because I am certainly not aware of any such?

Cheers,

Badeskov

[Royal]

I am curious. What kind of leap did humankind take? Can you explain that, because I am certainly not aware of any such?

Cheers,

Badeskov

Architecture,Religion,Astronomy.Mostly in the Middle East but at other points around the globe later on.

[badeskov]

Architecture,Religion,Astronomy.Mostly in the Middle East but at other points around the globe later on.

But how is that by any means a leap? I mean, those developed over long time.

Cheers,

Badeskov

[Babe Ruth]

But how is that by any means a leap? I mean, those developed over long time.

Cheers,

Badeskov

Royal is correct. It is covered very well in a few books by Zecharia Sitchin, check the spelling on his name. He is deceased now, but the book by him that I read is called The Twelfth Planet, and it explains it very well. Sumeria was the place, the proverbial cradle of civilization.

[badeskov]

Royal is correct. It is covered very well in a few books by Zecharia Sitchin, check the spelling on his name. He is deceased now, but the book by him that I read is called The Twelfth Planet, and it explains it very well. Sumeria was the place, the proverbial cradle of civilization.

By all means of respect, but you cannot be serious. I am well aware of Sitchin and his, dare I say, imaginative translations. They have been discussed numerous times around here.

But don't trust me, have a look at this link: http://www.sitchiniswrong.com/. From the intro:

Welcome to the website devoted to addressing the claims of the ancient astronaut hypothesis popularized in the writings of Zecharia Sitchin. Who's behind this site? My name is Mike Heiser. Who am I? The short answer is that I'm a scholar of biblical and ancient Near Eastern languages, cultures, and religions. Why do I bother with this stuff? Because I don't like ancient texts manipulated to promote false claims. If I were a lawyer I'd feel professionally obligated to tell you if someone was giving you bad legal advice. If I was a medical doctor, I'd owe you the truth if I knew the medicine you were taking was bogus or could kill you. If I was an accountant, I'd let you know if a neighbor's tax advice could put you in jail. I'm none of those things, but I'm trying to provide the same service in my areas of expertise. I can tell you--and show you--that what Sitchin has written about Nibiru, the Anunnaki, the book of Genesis, the Nephilim, and a host of other things has absolutely no basis in the real data of the ancient world. I don't doubt that Zecharia Sitchin is a nice guy; he's just wrong. Nothing personal.

Bolding mine.

Cheers,

Badeskov

Edited to fix quote.

Edited March 16, 2012 by badeskov

[Royal]

When I was young and impressionable I read "Chariots of the Gods"{and I know some of this work has since been discredited},but it forced me to explore other disciplines{Palaeontology,Astronomy,Archaeology etc.},and what I found to be true was a common thread about creation in many ancient civilizations .And if these ancients had no interaction with one another,then this suggests something other than the party line{for lack of a better phrase}.

[badeskov]

When I was young and impressionable I read "Chariots of the Gods"{and I know some of this work has since been discredited},

To say "some of his work has since been discredited" is putting it pretty nicely. Frankly, he was a populist that overall made up his entire tale.

but it forced me to explore other disciplines{Palaeontology,Astronomy,Archaeology etc.},and what I found to be true was a common thread about creation in many ancient civilizations .And if these ancients had no interaction with one another,then this suggests something other than the party line{for lack of a better phrase}.

I would suggest that you visit the Ancient Mysteries and Alternative History part of the forum. You'll find some incredibly educated and knowledgeable people there. And I am sure they'd be more than willing to engage you in a discussion with an open mind Go for it!

Cheers,

Badeskov

Edited March 17, 2012 by badeskov

[Royal]

To say "some of his work has since been discredited" is putting it pretty nicely. Frankly, he was a populist that overall made up his entire tale.

I would suggest that you visit the Ancient Mysteries and Alternative History part of the forum. You'll find some incredibly educated and knowledgeable people there. And I am sure they'd be more than willing to engage you in a discussion with an open mind Go for it!

Cheers,

Badeskov

I thought this was the Gods vs Aliens debate thread! I'm just getting warmed up.

[badeskov]

I thought this was the Gods vs Aliens debate thread! I'm just getting warmed up.

It is indeed. However, while I know the accolades of Daniken et. al., you would learn a lot more in the history part of the forum. People there are much more knowledgeable than I could ever hope to be. This stuff has been and is being discussed as we speak (write) extensively there.

Cheers,

Badeskov

[A rather obscure Bassoon]

Seriously Von Daniken !

A Laughing stock who should have been left in obscurity but was unfortunately pulled back to again festoon the world with his drivel.

There are Monuments to man's ingenuity all over the world,but some still choose to dumb our ancestors down.Where is this wonderous alien technology that we allegedly used to construct things such as the Pyramids?Why hasn't any of it been dug up?

Edited March 17, 2012 by shaddow134

[Babe Ruth]

Say what you want about the man Badeskov, but he was a scholar on the Sumerian civilization.

And his point that at some point in human history a huge and significant leap in knowledge and technology occured cannot be denied.

[A rather obscure Bassoon]

Say what you want about the man Badeskov, but he was a scholar on the Sumerian civilization.

And his point that at some point in human history a huge and significant leap in knowledge and technology occured cannot be denied.

We have made a huge and significant leap in knowledge and technology in just the last 100 years,i don't remember any Alien intervention do you.

[Babe Ruth]

We're not talking about the last 100 years ago Shaddow, we're talking about thousands of years ago.

[A rather obscure Bassoon]

We're not talking about the last 100 years ago Shaddow, we're talking about thousands of years ago.

Same principle wether it's the last 100 years or thousands of years ago,the fact is that from the first moment Homo Sapiens fashioned their first tool,our ability to fashion our enviroment to suit our needs was born.

I just wonder sometimes wether the Alien intervention crowd think that the little green men are going to rush in and save our apparently doomed Civilisation.All i know is our destiny was always going to be ours and ours alone.

Edited March 17, 2012 by shaddow134

[Royal]

Same principle wether it's the last 100 years or thousands of years ago,the fact is that from the first moment Homo Sapiens fashioned their first tool,our ability to fashion our enviroment to suit our needs was born.

I just wonder sometimes wether the Alien intervention crowd think that the little green men are going to rush in and save our apparently doomed Civilisation.All i know is our destiny was always going to be ours and ours alone. There is an undeniable common thread among ancient societies about beings,coming to the earth from above,from the heavens,from the stars,and implanting in the ancients minds who and how and why they should be worshipped as God,and also that they will return at some point.So the ancients recorded these events in stone and tried to emulate these Gods in anticipation of this return.If you don't believe in gods or aliens,thats OK,but this is what happened and we see it in what the ancients left us.

Edited March 18, 2012 by Royal