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[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood


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#10711    Abramelin

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 01:30 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 16 March 2012 - 06:05 AM, said:

The Amber Road was an ancient trade route for the transfer of amber. As one of the waterways and ancient highways, for centuries the road led from Europe to Asia and back, and from northern Africa to the Baltic Sea.

An important raw material, amber was transported from the North Sea and Baltic Sea coasts overland by way of the Vistula and Dnieper rivers to Italy, Greece, the Black Sea, and Egypt thousands of years ago, and long after.

In Roman times, a main route ran south from the Baltic coast in Prussia through the land of the Boii (modern Czech Republic and Slovakia) to the head of the Adriatic Sea (modern Gulf of Venice). The Egyptian pharaoh Tutankhamun had Baltic amber among his burial goods,[citation needed] and amber was sent from the North Sea to the temple of Apollo at Delphi as an offering. From the Black Sea, trade could continue to Asia along the Silk Road, another ancient trade route.

The Old Prussian towns of Kaup and Truso on the Baltic were the starting points of the route to the south. In Scandinavia the amber road probably gave rise to the thriving Nordic Bronze Age culture, bringing influences from the Mediterranean Sea to the northernmost countries of Europe.



Or taking influences INTO the Mediterranean.


The Veneti were at the end point of the trade route at the Gulf of Venice. Amber was sent from the North Sea to Apollo's temple, which surely indicates to me a Northern origin for Apollo.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Amber_Road

You mention amber. Did the Fryans trade in amber? I have never read anything about that in the OLB.

Maybe I missed it, and I am going to check it now.

++++

EDIT:

I didn't find anything about 'amber' in the OLB.


In modern Frisian it is called "barnstien".

The ancient Germans called it "glēsa".

The "barn" root has to do with 'burning', they used it as fuel or something like that.

"Barnstein" means "burnt stone".

I tried it myself, burn pine resin, and it burns for a very, very long time. I soaked a linnen cloth in it, put it on a wooden stick and set it alight.

It burns for many hours like a torch.

Maybe the Fryans used amber for their 'lamps'?

But if they traded in amber, why don't we read about it in the OLB?

It was being used by the ancient Greeks, Romans, and Egyptians.

I now think we are on a wrong track again with these 'Veneti'.


The Fryans were known by many names according to the OLB, but we don't read anythng in the OLB about "Veneti" or amber.

The Veneti appear to have lived all over Europe, from the Baltic, to the centre of Europe, to the Med, to the Channel area, to England, and Scotland.

But nothing about them in the OLB.

They are just another nail into the coffin of the OLB.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 16 March 2012 - 02:12 PM.


#10712    Swede

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 02:08 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 16 March 2012 - 06:10 AM, said:

I would find them interesting, this is what I like to do, hence my wonderment on the context of the phrase. Phaethon is a good one.

Citations:

Echo-Hawk, Roger C.
2000 Ancient History in the New World: Integrating Oral Traditions and the Archaeological Record In Deep Time. American Antiquity, Vol. 65, No. 2 pp. 267-290.

Mason, Ronald J.
2000 Archaeology and Native American Oral Traditions. American Antiquity, Vol 65, No. 2, pp.239-266.

These obviously deal with North America, but the various constraints and methodologies discussed have a broader application.

Would recommend reading Echo-Hawk first, as Mason is, at least initially, a rebuttal to Echo-Hawk.

Enjoy!


#10713    The Puzzler

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 02:21 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 16 March 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

You mention amber. Did the Fryans trade in amber? I have never read anything about that in the OLB.

Maybe I missed it, and I am going to check it now.

++++

EDIT:

I didn't find anything about 'amber' in the OLB.


In modern Frisian it is called "barnstien".

The ancient Germans called it "glēsa".

The "barn" root has to do with 'burning', they used it as fuel or something like that.

"Barnstein" means "burnt stone".

I tried it myself, burn pine resin, and it burns for a very, very long time. I soaked a linnen cloth in it, put it on a wooden stick and set it alight.

It burns for many hours like a torch.

Maybe the Fryans used amber for their 'lamps'?

But if they traded in amber, why don't we read about it in the OLB?

It was being used by the ancient Greeks, Romans, and Egyptians.

I now think we are on a wrong track again with these 'Veneti'.


The Fryans were known by many names according to the OLB, but we don't read anythng in the OLB about "Veneti" or amber.

The Veneti appear to have lived all over Europe, from the Baltic, to the centre of Europe, to the Med, to the Channel area, to England, and Scotland.

But nothing about them in the OLB.

They are just another nail into the coffin of the OLB.


.
The Juttar picked up amber from the shores.

The Fryans of the Friesland area probably didnt have much to do with it - but certainly in the area of the Frisian Lagoon, Vistula mouth, the Juttar, part of the Fryans would have traded in it imo.

It's a link to what the Fryans were doing in Italy with 'factories'. Sounds like a trade centre to me.

If Venus is Frya that link imo is important. It's a bit round a bout but my intentions are to discover exactly who WAS in Italy Bronze Age and where they came from, who were these Fryans in Near Krekaland with factories? It could be written off as pure crap but if the Baltic Veneti were followers of Frya and bought amber into Italy down the river routes as I showed in the Amber Road link, it means it is possible that Fryans were in Near Krekaland with factories.


PS: Thanks Swede  :tu:

Edited by The Puzzler, 16 March 2012 - 02:22 PM.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#10714    Alewyn

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 03:21 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 16 March 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

You mention amber. Did the Fryans trade in amber? I have never read anything about that in the OLB.

Maybe I missed it, and I am going to check it now.

++++

EDIT:

I didn't find anything about 'amber' in the OLB.

But if they traded in amber, why don't we read about it in the OLB?

They are just another nail into the coffin of the OLB.

The Book of Adela’s Followers, Chapter 24 (Tunis & Inka):

When they were well established, they set some old seamen and Magyarar ashore and onwards to the burgh Sidon, but at first the coastal people did not want to know anything about them.  

“You are only foreign drifters” they said, “whom we do not respect”.

When we wanted to sell them some of our iron weapons, however, it at last went well. They also greatly desired our amber and their inquiries about it had no end. But Tunis, who was far-sighted, pretended that he had no more iron weapons or amber. Then merchants came and begged him to let them have twenty vessels, which they would freight with the finest goods, and they would provide as many people to row as he would require.



#10715    The Puzzler

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 04:06 PM

View PostAlewyn, on 16 March 2012 - 03:21 PM, said:

The Book of Adela’s Followers, Chapter 24 (Tunis & Inka):

When they were well established, they set some old seamen and Magyarar ashore and onwards to the burgh Sidon, but at first the coastal people did not want to know anything about them.  

“You are only foreign drifters” they said, “whom we do not respect”.

When we wanted to sell them some of our iron weapons, however, it at last went well. They also greatly desired our amber and their inquiries about it had no end. But Tunis, who was far-sighted, pretended that he had no more iron weapons or amber. Then merchants came and begged him to let them have twenty vessels, which they would freight with the finest goods, and they would provide as many people to row as he would require.

Yes, and this part about amber. How did you forget or miss that part Abe?

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#10716    Abramelin

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 04:11 PM

View PostAlewyn, on 16 March 2012 - 03:21 PM, said:

The Book of Adela’s Followers, Chapter 24 (Tunis & Inka):

When they were well established, they set some old seamen and Magyarar ashore and onwards to the burgh Sidon, but at first the coastal people did not want to know anything about them.  

“You are only foreign drifters” they said, “whom we do not respect”.

When we wanted to sell them some of our iron weapons, however, it at last went well. They also greatly desired our amber and their inquiries about it had no end. But Tunis, who was far-sighted, pretended that he had no more iron weapons or amber. Then merchants came and begged him to let them have twenty vessels, which they would freight with the finest goods, and they would provide as many people to row as he would require.


Great. I couldn't find that text in the OLB.

So "Veneti" is still a possible alternative name for the Fryans.

Now all we have to do is prove that they were around, 2200 BC.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 16 March 2012 - 04:12 PM.


#10717    Abramelin

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 04:14 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 16 March 2012 - 04:06 PM, said:

Yes, and this part about amber. How did you forget or miss that part Abe?

It's hard to focus when you are looking at the bottom of a bottle of booze.

But I checked what Alewyn posted, and he is right.


#10718    Van Gorp

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 12:28 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 14 March 2012 - 02:07 PM, said:

I posted this in Trojans were Basques? topic but felt it could be a connection in this topic too. If the people of Southern Belgium, who may have been Fryans were the Veneti, it could be the sailors of this area were in Italy and had 'factories'.

Presented below as old Scytisch (Celtisch Cimbrisch Dietsch) words: another possible view on some of the earlier interesting posts.

Veneti -> coming from Beneden, those living below
Armorica -> coming from Armer-ycke -> arms of the coast side

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#10719    Abramelin

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:28 AM

View PostVan Gorp, on 17 March 2012 - 12:28 AM, said:

Presented below as old Scytisch (Celtisch Cimbrisch Dietsch) words: another possible view on some of the earlier interesting posts.

Veneti -> coming from Beneden, those living below
Armorica -> coming from Armer-ycke -> arms of the coast side


How about those Veneti living in Scotland? Or at the coast of the Baltic? Or in Middle Europe?


#10720    Abramelin

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 10:04 AM

View PostSwede, on 16 March 2012 - 02:08 PM, said:

Citations:

Echo-Hawk, Roger C.
2000 Ancient History in the New World: Integrating Oral Traditions and the Archaeological Record In Deep Time. American Antiquity, Vol. 65, No. 2 pp. 267-290.

Mason, Ronald J.
2000 Archaeology and Native American Oral Traditions. American Antiquity, Vol 65, No. 2, pp.239-266.

These obviously deal with North America, but the various constraints and methodologies discussed have a broader application.

Would recommend reading Echo-Hawk first, as Mason is, at least initially, a rebuttal to Echo-Hawk.

Enjoy!

Swede, you and I have been discussing this Echo-Hawk in the Doggerland thread:

Scroll down this page:

http://www.unexplain...c=179840&st=375

And then this page:

http://www.unexplain...7

.

Edited by Abramelin, 17 March 2012 - 10:07 AM.


#10721    Abramelin

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 10:11 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 16 March 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:

Great. I couldn't find that text in the OLB.

So "Veneti" is still a possible alternative name for the Fryans.

Now all we have to do is prove that they were around, 2200 BC.

.

I remember Swede once told me that the next site - which we posted a couple of times here and in the Doggerland thread - is not created by a scientist, but by an artist. On the other hand, I have read about worse theories.

What he has to say about the Veneti (actually mmost of his website is about them) is interesting. But whether it would 'help' the OLB.... I am not that sure.


Here some text:




Finding sedentary civilizations down there, they would have traded and some would have continued to do so, becoming professional traders. Some would have stayed and become part of the trading world down there - and that led me to wonder about the many instances of the name VENETI in the ancient writings. The words by Finnic language seemed to be plural of boat, or 'something pertaining to water' and could interpret easily as 'boat people' or 'people of  watercrafts' or something similar. But scholars were not thinking in terms of traders at all. The Veneti were a mystery. The Adriatic Veneti had left behind inscriptions of their language. Maybe they were a Finnic language indicative or a northern origin? I then noticed that the Adriatic Veneti were at the southern terminus of  two major trade routes carrying amber from the north. That provided a direct link. If amber came down for a millenium, the language in the south would have been kept in line with that in the north, and not diverge as fast as if there was no connection. The genetics of the peoples at the south really did not matter anymore. The language was a trade language, a lingua franca. Was the early trade language of the tradeways of early Europe of a Finnic character. It might be, if the traders were derived from the north - those notherners were preadapted to long journeys on rivers in boats. Thus I became sidetracked by these questions and that led me to interpret the Veneti inscriptions and document it in a book.  What I have discovered and present has made these articles very heavily visited, and scholars already considering oceanic crossings to North America have sent supportive emails.   Andres Pääbo  (rev. Nov 09)

http://www.paabo.ca/uirala/index.html



http://www.paabo.ca/.../Map-3000BC.jpg


Having established that the original words - when the language was simple and had only the simple vowels and consonants of a baby - were based on UI-, let's explore how an original word like UINI or UINU would have evolved into later words like  Finni, Phinnoi, Fenni, etc  in the north and the Veneti (Eneti, Henetoi, Uenedi, etc) in the Black Sea and southern Europe.

The Origins of the "Finni" Name: The Introductory F Sound

     The Scandinavians of centuries ago called the native peoples throughout Scandinavia by the name "Finns".  That must have been a real name used by the natives, since it is unlikely the Scandinavians would have borrowed the use of the same name by the Roman Tacitus and  Greeks like Ptolemy, with reference to primitive peoples in the wilderness behind the southeast Baltic. (See Tacitus Germania 98AD, ch 46). The Greeks wrote Phinnoi, and Tacitus  used Fenni.  But Finnic languages did not originally have the "F, PH" sound; therefore it must have been a sound that somewhat resembled an "F".  We note that there are historical records which speak about Indu peoples in the Gulf of Finland as well, and of course there exist the Finno-Ugrians called Khanti at the Ob River, who Estonians call Handid.  

The original word could indeed have been "UINNI", but was spoken by the people themselves so it sounded like "WHINNI" or "BHINNI" or "HINNI" or.....The foreign listeners wrote down what the bias of their own language observed, whether the sound was in the language or not.

     It is important to always bear in mind that when Latin writers wrote the F-character, they may have been describing the "V" sound, whereas when they wrote the V-character they always meant the "W" sound. Thus Latin Fenni may have actually been "VENNI", while Latin Venni was actually "WENNI"

        It is interesting that the name for the ancient people called Veneti by the Romans, were called Eneti or Henetoi, by Greeks.  The difference is not that great if we rewrite the Roman version properly as Weneti. What both versions have in common is the ENETI part. It shows that the Roman ear and the Greek ear interpreted the initial peculiarity in different ways. A third language may have interpreted it yet differently still like say "KHENETI"  (which reminds us of the people popularly called Khanti, but which Estonian language calls Handid.)

The proof of this explanation for the origins of the name of the Eneti/Veneti seems to be found in inscriptions left by the Eneti/Veneti themselves in North Italy. They left behind short pieces of writing that have been the subject of investigation (of little success) over the years. Of interest are words that could be interpreted as their own words for Eneti/Veneti. In their own phonetic writing modelled after Etruscan writing, they wrote their own name as follows (transcribed to Roman alphabet, but keeping the dots used)  .e..n.no --   Note the dots around the initial E. The dots in their inscriptions appear, in my analysis, to signify some kind of special linguistic feature. Scholars have solidly established that in some situations  .i.  distorts the "I" sound to resemble an "H".  It can therefore be assumed that  the E with dots on both sides, similarly represents dome kind of H-like quality. We conclude therefore, the Venetic inscription placing dots around the initial E  confirms the theory of the actual speech introducing an aspirant consonantal feature in front, but one that was not clear enough to define as a letter. We can speculate that maybe the sound was similar to "WH" since the Romans interpreted it as "WENETI".  



The Origins of the "ENETI, HENETOI" Name

      Homer in his Iliad, first wrote about a people named Eneti or Henetoi who were located at Paphlagonia on the southwest coast of the Black Sea, who came to the aid of Troy (around 1200 BC).  This name Eneti continued to appear in Greek texts, for more than a millenium, describing a people who appear to have been, to the Greeks, a source of tin and amber.

      Because archeology shows that Baltic amber came down to the civilizations in Asia Minor and Egypt, even before the rise of Mycenian Greece, even if clear evidence of people called Eneti being handlers of northern amber comes from the colonies of Eneti in northern Italy, we are justified in assuming amber was also handled earlier by Eneti at the Black Sea, since river routes from the east Baltic sources of amber reached the Black Sea easily.

      Archeology shows an abundance of early trade amber in the Gulf of Riga, and apparently travelling down the Dneiper River to the Black Sea; thus we can assume that the original Black Sea  Eneti were a southern colony of  Dneiper traders who carried amber and other goods south from the Baltic. It's possible there was a major source of amber in the Gulf of Riga, which became used up.

     Since the culture of the east Baltic region at the time, the archeological "Comb Ceramic" culture, has been associated with the Finnic peoples, we can conclude that the Eneti were Finnic, and that their name came from the same origins - the northern boat peoples, reaching back to the UINI, UINU.


http://www.paabo.ca/.../uini-name.html


+++++++++++++

EDIT:

So according to this Paabo: " - and that led me to wonder about the many instances of the name VENETI in the ancient writings. The words by Finnic language seemed to be plural of boat, or 'something pertaining to water' and could interpret easily as 'boat people' or 'people of  watercrafts' or something similar."


I hope you remember what I suggested earlier:

View PostAbramelin, on 14 March 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:


< skip >

Lol, now we can only 'hope' these Romans called all those people "Veneti" because of their blue eyes and/or because they practically lived on the seas.

.

His map of 3000 BC:

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Edited by Abramelin, 17 March 2012 - 10:27 AM.


#10722    Otharus

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 12:13 PM

Chapter 1 of "Hir is eskriven ~ lezen en schrijven in de Friese landen rond 1300" ('reading and writing in the Frisian lands ca. 1300'), by Rolf H. Bremmer jr. (Fryske Akademy, 2004).

Title: "Zoveel geschreven, zo weinig gebleven" ('so much written, so little saved')

(sorry no translation yet)

PART 1 of 3

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#10723    Otharus

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 12:16 PM

PART 2 of 3

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#10724    Otharus

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 12:17 PM

PART 3 of 3

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#10725    The Puzzler

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 04:09 PM

Abe, great post on the Veneti. What it does show imo is that people who could have been Fryans, were travelling the river systems down into the Mediterranean even prior to Mycenaean times.

The mention also of the dots either side of the a -

.e..n.no -- Note the dots around the initial E. The dots in their inscriptions appear, in my analysis, to signify some kind of special linguistic feature. Scholars have solidly established that in some situations .i. distorts the "I" sound to resemble an "H". It can therefore be assumed that the E with dots on both sides, similarly represents dome kind of H-like quality. We conclude therefore, the Venetic inscription placing dots around the initial E confirms the theory of the actual speech introducing an aspirant consonantal feature in front, but one that was not clear enough to define as a letter. We can speculate that maybe the sound was similar to "WH" since the Romans interpreted it as "WENETI".

could also be relative the language of the OLB with it's dots in words.

A main Etruscan God was Uni, so that's a connection for me in other areas of my interests too.

The original word could indeed have been "UINNI", but was spoken by the people themselves so it sounded like "WHINNI" or "BHINNI" or "HINNI" or.....The foreign listeners wrote down what the bias of their own language observed, whether the sound was in the language or not.

Uni could connect to Venus/Veneti then. Uni becomes Juno in Roman mythology but her connections to Astarte are also there.
http://www.thaliatoo...m/OGOD/uni.html

.e..nn.no to Veneti - makes you realise how much is connecting dots.


----------------

I'm even seeing words that might lead to the name Phoenicians - fenni/phenoi

Edited by The Puzzler, 17 March 2012 - 04:14 PM.

In an mmm bop it's gone...