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Homosexuality, sin, choice or biology?


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#46    freetoroam

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 04:40 PM

View PostJor-el, on 02 June 2013 - 04:11 PM, said:


So why did Communist Russia and Hitlers Third Reich have it in for homosexuals?

You need to read about them fully before you make such stupid statements like this. As so rightly pointed out, they had it in for everyone who were not one of them!.
How can you possibly bring in Hitler on this when the main thing he wanted to destroy were the Jews? bringing in Hitler into that is very low and a big disrespect for ALL those who died!

In an ideal World a law would be passed were NO guns were allowed and all those out there destroyed, trouble is the law makers are not going to take a risk of trying to pass that without making sure they are armed first.

#47    Jor-el

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 04:40 PM

View Postshadowhive, on 02 June 2013 - 04:17 PM, said:

I fear that it could be considered a disease and as treated as such absolutely yes. Do you not?

Religion would serve as motivation for finding a 'cure'. It's religous groups that consider it to be a disease now.

I would not want a'cure'. I would fight against it. Before we attempted to 'cure' gay people... by force. I have no desire to see that happening again. No way. Not in my lifetime.

Interesting response, do you know that religious people are in fact considered to have a disease, not merely psychological but physical as well, something to do with the brain chemistry.

There are many right now, even on this board who advocate curing the religious.

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It sounds like you are to me.

As I once said before, stating a fact is not promoting it.


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They had it in for anyone that was against them. The reich had ideas on 'genetic perfection' which meant anyone outside that was considered aberrant worthy of destruction. (I always found it odd that their idea of perfection was blonde hair etc and Hitler himself well...)

The point being that religion did not play any role whatsoever and homosexuals still got clobbered.

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#48    Sherapy

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 04:42 PM

View PostStarMountainKid, on 02 June 2013 - 04:26 PM, said:

I think condemning people for their harmless behavior is a sin. Some, I suppose, gain satisfaction from deciding some population of society are sinners, and therefore should be excluded from their exclusive club and tortured for eternity. I consider this a rather harsh punishment for anyone. This attitude is expected of vicious dictators, of course, but it worries me that this stance exists in the general population.

I think this is a rather extremest attitude and egomaniacle, which I consider a mental health issue.  I consider these kinds of extremists to be much more dangerous to society than homosexuals.

I consider sexuality to be biological in nature, and therefore condemning people for the structure of their genes amounts to eugenics, which any rational person understands is vile and despicable in any form.

For the life of me I cannot fathom anyone saying that any of the 4 sexual expressions are vile and that somehow one is better/normal over another. It is a clear case of misinformation and if an ideology is teaching this I'd get away from the ideology or dismiss it as ignorant.

Edited by Sherapy, 02 June 2013 - 04:43 PM.




#49    shadowhive

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 04:44 PM

View PostJor-el, on 02 June 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

Interesting response, do you know that religious people are in fact considered to have a disease, not merely psychological but physical as well, something to do with the brain chemistry.

There are many right now, even on this board who advocate curing the religious.

And if a cure fr that was found would you not be as much against it as I am for a similar thing?

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As I once said before, stating a fact is not promoting it.

You seem to be doing more than that though.

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The point being that religion did not play any role whatsoever and homosexuals still got clobbered.

And? Just by pointing out instances where religion was not involved does not change the instances where religions do.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
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#50    Sherapy

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 04:48 PM

View PostJor-el, on 02 June 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

Interesting response, do you know that religious people are in fact considered to have a disease, not merely psychological but physical as well, something to do with the brain chemistry.

There are many right now, even on this board who advocate curing the religious.



As I once said before, stating a fact is not promoting it.




The point being that religion did not play any role whatsoever and homosexuals still got clobbered.

Jor el what is your point?




#51    Jor-el

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 04:49 PM

View PostSherapy, on 02 June 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

Jor el, this is current data on the subject.
http://en.wikipedia....ual_orientation

The relationship between biology and sexual orientation is a subject of research. A simple and singular determinant for sexual orientation has not been conclusively demonstrated—various studies point to different, even conflicting positions—but research suggests that a combination of genetic, hormonal and social factors determine sexual orientation.[1][2] Biological theories for explaining the causes of sexual orientation are more popular,[1] and biological factors may involve a complex interplay of genetic factors and the early uterine environment.[3] These factors, which may be related to the development of a heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual or asexual orientation, include genes, prenatal hormones, and brain structure.

Yes I know, before I started this thread I did some studying on the issue and I was at that wiki page myself. The point is that there is something that is not mentioned anywhere..

Prevalence.

If the norm is heterosexuality and not merely one of many different sexual orientations then it can equally be classified as a deviance from the norm, which suggests a genetic or hormonal imbalance or mutation, which could then be curable by genetic therapy, which will be soon available to many with a wider selection of possible alterations we can will on our offspring. from eye colour to sexual orientation.

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#52    White Crane Feather

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 04:51 PM

View PostJor-el, on 02 June 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:



Yes I know, before I started this thread I did some studying on the issue and I was at that wiki page myself. The point is that there is something that is not mentioned anywhere..

Prevalence.

If the norm is heterosexuality and not merely one of many different sexual orientations then it can equally be classified as a deviance from the norm, which suggests a genetic or hormonal imbalance or mutation, which could then be curable by genetic therapy, which will be soon available to many with a wider selection of possible alterations we can will on our offspring. from eye colour to sexual orientation.
You havnt answered my question. If intolerance of differences is a deviation from the norm and damages people, shouldn't we isolate those factors and come up with a therepy for it? After it has caused much if the misery and death in the world right?

Edited by Seeker79, 02 June 2013 - 04:53 PM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
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#53    Jor-el

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 04:52 PM

View PostSherapy, on 02 June 2013 - 04:48 PM, said:

Jor el what is your point?

That religion is merely the patsy for a much wider human feeling against homosexuality. When religion is removed as in the case of Nazis and Communism, the homosexual community was still treated badly or even worse than badly.

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#54    Jor-el

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 04:55 PM

View Postfreetoroam, on 02 June 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

You need to read about them fully before you make such stupid statements like this. As so rightly pointed out, they had it in for everyone who were not one of them!.
How can you possibly bring in Hitler on this when the main thing he wanted to destroy were the Jews? bringing in Hitler into that is very low and a big disrespect for ALL those who died!

Bull.

Contrary to what many people may think, those two societies killed more non Jews than they did Jews. So imagine if you please just how many people they did kill.

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#55    Jor-el

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 04:57 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 02 June 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

You havnt answered my question. If intolerance of differences is a deviation from the norm and damages people, shouldn't we isolate those factors and come up with a therepy for it? After it has caused much if the misery and death in the world right?

Absolutely, if it were genetic deviation, instead of human nature.

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#56    White Crane Feather

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 04:59 PM

View PostJor-el, on 02 June 2013 - 04:52 PM, said:



That religion is merely the patsy for a much wider human feeling against homosexuality. When religion is removed as in the case of Nazis and Communism, the homosexual community was still treated badly or even worse than badly.
Nazies targeted Christians churches aswell and only tolerated them during the war, but there was a plan to deal with church afterward.

You need to step up On your history there jorel. Homosexual behavior was not an issue before abrahamic religions. Not in many native American societies not in ancient Greece. If intolerances existed it was not the norm.

Edited by Seeker79, 02 June 2013 - 05:00 PM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#57    White Crane Feather

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 05:01 PM

View PostJor-el, on 02 June 2013 - 04:57 PM, said:



Absolutely, if it were genetic deviation, instead of human nature.
Hmm I hope you realize that If we are going with the gene theme, then all of human nature is genetic.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#58    Jor-el

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 05:02 PM

View Postshadowhive, on 02 June 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

And if a cure fr that was found would you not be as much against it as I am for a similar thing?

Absolutely, it still won't change the fact that it will be attempted.

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You seem to be doing more than that though.

Yeah, I can remember seeing Gattaca and saying wow, that would be so nice!! (not :no:)

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And? Just by pointing out instances where religion was not involved does not change the instances where religions do.

What it does show is that you are not fighting the correct enemy, you are merely fighting one of its effects.

Edited by Jor-el, 02 June 2013 - 05:02 PM.

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#59    shadowhive

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 05:05 PM

View PostJor-el, on 02 June 2013 - 05:02 PM, said:

Absolutely, it still won't change the fact that it will be attempted.

Not necessarily if people are vigilant and against such attempts.

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Yeah, I can remember seeing Gattaca and saying wow, that would be so nice!! (not :no:)

The reason you come off as sounding for it is because you're givin exciuses a to why it would be attempted and you sound pretty on board with them.


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What it does show is that you are not fighting the correct enemy, you are merely fighting one of its effects.

Since a religious belief is against homosexuality yeah, it is the enemy not just a 'effect'

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
"There's the trouble with fanatics. They're easy to manipulate, but somehow they take everything five steps too far."
"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."

#60    Jor-el

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 05:05 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 02 June 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

Nazies targeted Christians churches aswell and only tolerated them during the war, but there was a plan to deal with church afterward.

You need to step up On your history there jorel. Homosexual behavior was not an issue before abrahamic religions. Not in many native American societies not in ancient Greece. If intolerances existed it was not the norm.

Absolutely, but then again so was pedophilia. look how things change and stay the same even then.

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-C. S. Lewis