4026 replies to this topic

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 17 May 2012 - 11:47 AM, said:

Caesar considered (part of) the Belgii (sp??) tribe as Celts, yes, and they lived south of the mouth of the Rhine.

The Frisians were a Germanic tribe.

On the other hand, Celts and Germans lived criss cross all over Northern Europe

I added this as a late edit which you may have missed:

R1b (U106) is from what they think is a Proto-Celtic people, which is exactly centred in Frisia. Imo this indicates that it could be the Fryans who were R1b (U106) and also the Proto-CEltic people who were at Hallstatt.

The spread of iron-working led to the development of the Hallstatt culture directly from the Urnfield (ca. 700 to 500 BC). Proto-Celtic, the latest common ancestor of all known Celtic languages, is considered by this school of thought to have been spoken at the time of the late Urnfield or early Hallstatt cultures, in the early 1st millennium BC. The spread of the Celtic languages to Iberia, Ireland and Britain would have occurred during the first half of the 1st millennium BC, the earliest chariot burials in Britain dating to c. 500 BC. Other scholars see Celtic languages as covering Britain and Ireland, and parts of the Continent, long before any evidence of "Celtic" culture is found in archaeology. Over the centuries the language(s) developed into the separate Celtiberian, Goidelic and Brythonic languages.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts

The interesting thing with the OLB is the word barn for child, not Germanic/English child/kinder - this to me, has always indicated an earlier than Germanic language - and a different language than Germanic as well - a proto-Celtic language - which from all indications, is what the OLB language might even be. Note 'Celtic language' in Britain before so called Celtic culture - possibly became the Fryans were not Celtic as such until the developments from Central Europe were part of their realm - prior to that, they spoke the language, travelled to Britain and were a Fryan Proto-Celtic people.


At Caesars time they might have merged into Germanic, he's a Johnny Come Lately compared to Ephoros. By his time things had massively changed from the 4th millenium. This holds water imo - the Celts were Fryans/Frisians.

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OK, Baltic in reality 350BC and mountains spouted fire to the clouds.

Edited by The Puzzler, 17 May 2012 - 12:00 PM.

[Abramelin]

You make the common mistake: Germanic is NOT German, but German IS Germanic.

Call it "Nordic" if you like. The Norse, Danish and Swedes (not sure of them) also use barn.

And BARN is GE_BORENE in Dutch, or offspring, someone who is 'born'. It's a normal Germanic/Nordic word. One Germanic language uses it as noun, another uses it as verb. That happens often.

But we now use 'kind', you use 'child', the Germans use 'Kind'.

It's not a big mystery, it's simply that some countries prefer to use one word, other countries the other word.

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EDIT:

I have also read here and there that the Cimbri, who fled out of Denmark, were Celts.

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Edited by Abramelin, 17 May 2012 - 12:30 PM.

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 17 May 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

I don't think that's what OLB suggests.
It only says "BALDA JEFTA KWÁDE SÉ" = Balda or bad/ evil/ angry sea.
This can mean two things:
The sea was known both as BALDA SÉ and as KWÁDE SÉ, or that BALDA and KWÁDE have the same meaning.

Yes, and you are very right.

For god knows what reason I have been connecting things that are not (necessarily) connected.

It's because Konered refers to the flood (306 BC) as described by his father Frethorik when he starts talking about how the Juts and Lets came from the Baltic Sea or Angry ("Kwade") Sea.

I think some neurons mis-fired in my brains, lol.

It started when I wondered why the Baltic would be called the 'angry sea' when all the scheise had happened in the North Sea area. And that the North Sea doesn't even have a name in the OLB, unless I am right about it being Wralda's Sea.

Or maybe the North Sea is another candidate for the Middle Sea. Then we have 4 of them, heh.

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Edited by Abramelin, 17 May 2012 - 12:25 PM.

[Abramelin]

I am not done with the OLB 306 BC event yet.

If there were volcanoes erupting, then I think it were volcanoes in Iceland.

Only a century before the OLB was published, the Laki volcano erupted and caused the death of many millions of people


Atmospheric and environmental effects of the 1783–1784 Laki eruption: A review and reassessment

Thorvaldur Thordarson and Stephen Self

http://seismo.berkel...hordarson03.pdf

And enter "Holland": there was massive ice formation in the North Sea as an effect of this eruption. People could skate on sea ice from Noordwijk to Scheveningen, that's about 25 kilometers (17 miles)


The Laki eruption and its aftermath has been estimated to have killed over six million people[5] globally, making it the deadliest volcanic eruption in historical times. The drop in temperatures, due to the sulphuric dioxide gases spewed into the northern hemisphere, caused crop failures in Europe, droughts in India, and Japan's worst famine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laki


Death toll:

Unknown precisely: perhaps 6 million,[1] including a million in Japan,[2] a similar number in France,[2] many in the rest of northern Europe and in Egypt. Killed 9,350 people in Iceland, about 25% of the island's population.

http://en.wikipedia....s_by_death_toll
:

[Otharus]

There have been many examples where the Westfrisian dialect (sometimes that of Texel) offers better explanations for OLB-words than known (Old-) Frisian. It might also be one of the reasons why some proud nationalist Frisians did not like the OLB, because it suggested that their dialect was actually not older than Dutch, just another variety of Old-'Frisian'. I have suggested before (like in my Frisones video), that the 'Fryan' Old-Frisian might actually more be Old-Westfrisian.

This map has been in my mind for a while.
Now I finally made it (using a reconstucted map of Roman times):

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 17 May 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

You make the common mistake: Germanic is NOT German, but German IS Germanic.

Call it "Nordic" if you like. The Norse, Danish and Swedes (not sure of them) also use barn.

And BARN is GE_BORENE in Dutch, or offspring, someone who is 'born'. It's a normal Germanic/Nordic word. One Germanic language uses it as noun, another uses it as verb. That happens often.

But we now use 'kind', you use 'child', the Germans use 'Kind'.

It's not a big mystery, it's simply that some countries prefer to use one word, other countries the other word.

++++++++

EDIT:

I have also read here and there that the Cimbri, who fled out of Denmark, were Celts.

.

I just need to edit this post.

Edited by The Puzzler, 17 May 2012 - 01:03 PM.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 17 May 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

I am not done with the OLB 306 BC event yet.

If there were volcanoes erupting, then I think it were volcanoes in Iceland.

Only a century before the OLB was published, the Laki volcano erupted and caused the death of many millions of people


Atmospheric and environmental effects of the 1783–1784 Laki eruption: A review and reassessment

Thorvaldur Thordarson and Stephen Self

http://seismo.berkel...hordarson03.pdf

And enter "Holland": there was massive ice formation in the North Sea as an effect of this eruption. People could skate on sea ice from Noordwijk to Scheveningen, that's about 25 kilometers (17 miles)


The Laki eruption and its aftermath has been estimated to have killed over six million people[5] globally, making it the deadliest volcanic eruption in historical times. The drop in temperatures, due to the sulphuric dioxide gases spewed into the northern hemisphere, caused crop failures in Europe, droughts in India, and Japan's worst famine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laki


Death toll:

Unknown precisely: perhaps 6 million,[1] including a million in Japan,[2] a similar number in France,[2] many in the rest of northern Europe and in Egypt. Killed 9,350 people in Iceland, about 25% of the island's population.

http://en.wikipedia....s_by_death_toll
:

I'm doing the volcano thing as well, here's what I have:

OK, this doesn't say 350BC but that date is very interesting, as the timeframe for the Sea Peoples and Bronze Age collapse.

One of the largest Holocene eruptions in Iceland was the Hekla 3 (or H3) eruption of (950 BC[15]) (1159 BC[16]) which threw about 7.3 km3[9] of volcanic rock into the atmosphere, placing its Volcanic Explosivity Index (VEI) at 5. This would have cooled temperatures in the northern parts of the globe for a few years afterwards. Traces of this eruption have been identified in Scottish peat bogs, and in Ireland a study of tree rings dating from this period has shown negligible tree ring growth for a decade.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hekla

Average?: The earliest recorded eruption of Hekla took place in 1104, since then there have been between twenty and thirty considerable eruptions,

In 1000 years Hekla has erupted around 30 times, so from 1100BC to 1000BC, it would not be improbable for Helka to have erupted at least another 20-30 times, of which an eruption at 350BC may not be recorded or known but could have easily occurred.

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Earlier writers seem to have glowing reports of Fryan type Celts Hellanicus of Lesbos, an historian of the fifth century B.C., describes the Celts as practising justice and righteousness. Ephorus, about 350 B.C., has three lines of verse about the Celts in which they are described as using" the same customs as the Greeks " - whatever that may mean - and being on the friendliest terms with that people, who established guest friend-ships among them.
http://www.sacred-te...mlcr/mlcr01.htm

But then they seem to degenerate into the 'barbaric warrior' type.

[Otharus]

The Puzzler, on 17 May 2012 - 12:56 PM, said:

Frisian has no cild or child, they say ancient barn, a Celtic word

'Bern' is still very common in modern Frisian (singular and plural).
I think it is related to past perfect of the verb 'to bear' (to carry).

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 17 May 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:

'Bern' is still very common in modern Frisian (singular and plural).
I think it is related to past perfect of the verb 'to bear' (to carry).

It is:

http://www.etymonlin...owed_in_frame=0

>>> http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/geboren

[The Puzzler]

Otharus, on 17 May 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:

'Bern' is still very common in modern Frisian (singular and plural).
I think it is related to past perfect of the verb 'to bear' (to carry).

I would think it is.

Frisian does have kind as child, but it's not used in the OLB indicating it could be a newer word, not actually an original word of Fryan.

The etymologies are very complex with bear and hard to work out there is so many offshoots they mostly relate to bear, both verb and noun, also barn, as in seed house - the whole structure of farming is based in the seed inside the pod, which is a baby born in a barn.

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OK Abe, I think I see what you mean with child as kind - but I know what I mean too  - I'll think about it some more.

Edited by The Puzzler, 17 May 2012 - 01:23 PM.

[Abramelin]

The info you posted about Hekla, Puzz, is peanuts compared to what the Laki volcano was capable of.

But no traces of an (Icelandic) volcanic eruption has been found for the 306 BC date that equals the 18th century eruption of the Laki volcano.

And the OLB talks in plural, btw, so it wasn't just one volcano having the hiccups. That would have been noticable for geologists.

[The Puzzler]

Exactly what I just said about the Cimbrian Flood being too late as a flooding and migration from the Rhine mouth is mentioned much earlier.

In many texts, the so-called "Cymbrian (or Kymbrian) flood" of the coasts around the German Bight is reputed to be responsible for setting off a migration of Celtic tribes. [23] (This is quoted by Lamb with the date range given at the head of this paragraph; but there's something odd here: the source is the Greek writer Strabo (living in what was at the time part of the Roman Empire), who lived ~63/64BC to 24AD, who in turn was quoting earlier writers (also Greek). In particular, Strabo comments upon the writings of Clitarchus (or Cleitarchus), who tells the tale of horsemen not being able to outrun an incoming (?flood?) tide and who is credited with living in the 'last quarter of the third century BC', or before 300BC. This means that this so-called 'flood' must have been some two or more centuries before the date given here! The idea of a single flood event setting off a wholesale migration is also difficult to comprehend - more likely a series of damaging floods / storm events, in the area that we now know as the Dutch polder-lands. This timing [ i.e. latter part of the fourth century BC ] would also tie in well with the suspected downturn in climate fortunes, with increased storminess across NW Europe and general cooling [ see 650BC - 200BC comments above.)
http://booty.org.uk/.../4000_100BC.htm

But it is hard to find anything like the conditions mentioned geologically around 300BC. I don't see it impossible though that Icelandic volcanoes were erupting and are not recorded or known about properly to be dated. What we do know is that from 400-100BC heavy, damaging flooding is present but nothing too dramatic like volcanic eruptions are mentioned.

[Abramelin]

I don't get what you say about the Cimbrian Flood being too late: the Frisian historian Schotanus  assumed it had occurred in either 360 or 350 BC.

And you know how I think by now, lol: 360 >> 306??

The Laki eruption caused all that mayhem, not directly by the eruption itself, but by what the incredible amount of ashes did to crops, live stock, and the weather.

And it started and ended its activity at about the same time the OLB 306 BC event started and ended.

Would anyone in the 19th century have remembered the Laki eruption and its effects? I am sure of it: they may not have been direct witnesses, but they must have heard from their parents and grandparents.


The eruption began on June 8, 1783. Until July 29 activity was confined to the fissure southwest of Mount Laki. On July 29 the fissure northeast of the mountain became active, and from that time almost all activity was confined to that half of the fissure. The eruption lasted until early February 1784, and it is considered to be the greatest lava eruption on Earth in historical times. The commonly accepted figure for the volume of lava extruded is about 2.95 cubic miles (12.3 cubic km); that for the area covered, about 220 square miles (565 square km). The enormous quantity of volcanic gases that was released caused a conspicuous haze over most of continental Europe; haze was even reported in Syria, in the Altai Mountains in western Siberia, and in North Africa. The vast quantities of sulfurous gases stunted crops and grasses and killed most of the domestic animals in Iceland; the resulting Haze Famine eventually killed about one-fifth of Iceland’s population (and 6 million in the rest of the world).

http://www.britannic...pic/328272/Laki

[Abramelin]

Puzz, I found something especially for you:

The OERA LINDA SOCIETY is open to any woman who seeks perfection and keeps her body, mind and spirit pure by:

1. Abstaining from sex, orgasm, meat and intoxicants.
2. Only wearing the short white tohnekka (pictured).
3. Performing 1,200 knee-bend exercises every day.

To join, simply register on this site as a member, or contact us for more details. There is no membership fee, and all trainees are given an instructor.

The knee-bending exercise is known as the Sachsengruss, and is demonstrated on this 1930s newsreel (at 2:30 minutes into the clip). Our members perform the Sachsengruss 1,200 times a day in 2 shifts, or 600 times per shift. The shifts last 3 hours each, AM and PM.

We derive our philosophy from the Oera Linda Book, an ancient Frisian manuscript that tells us of a lost civilisation in the North Sea, destroyed in 2194 BC. The people of this civilisation, and their descendants, the Frisians, were ruled over by an elite order of perfected women, known as fâmna, priestesses of the Goddess Frya. Our aim is to recreate this order for the modern age.

http://oeralinda.web...ralindabook.htm

Kind regards, Tony Steele

LOL.

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EDIT:

Petronella Bais, 1897–1971
(Founder of the Society)

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That's interesting: wasn't there someone with the name Bais member of the Over de Linden family??

I checked Knul's site, but couldn't find thsi Petronella.

III-d ‎ ‏Petronella Bais
Geb. ‎± 1897 te Den Helder‎. Dochter van Thomas Bais en Jannetje de Boer‏

Thomas Bais‏‎
Geb. ‎± 1865 te Enkhuizen‎. Beroep(en): visscher. Zoon van Pieter Bais en Jantje over de Linden‏

http://www.genealogi...240&parenteel=1

http://www.genealogi...nen_weergeven=1

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Edited by Abramelin, 17 May 2012 - 04:53 PM.

[Van Gorp]

Abramelin, on 17 May 2012 - 06:01 AM, said:

From what I read "Vlaanderen" has a totally different etymology (see Wiki), and nothing like "Flielanden". I found "Flielanden" on exactly one site which has some other weird theories too.

And it strikes you you didn't read  about "makia"??

Well, then you read too fast lol. It's either the Frisian "makia" meaning "to make" or it means "sword" (see Vimose, Fyn island, Denmark, close to Odense, the traditional birthplace of Odin/Wodan).

And Lemmer, which I think is Lumka-makia, means 'worker who helps with the slaughter of whales" / "part of a knife"/  "part of a sword" / "bare blade" / "wick of a lamp or candle".

I also posted about both a Danish and Frisian word "Lumsk" which means sly, cunning, treacherous.

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OK thnx.

Below my and seemingly also other's idea's about the word 'Vlaanderen'.

WIKI gives the right description: "overstroomd gebied" (flooded area)
but as usual coming with a Latin origin "Flandrensis", deducted from "flâm", which on his turn is described as
“een Ingveoonse vorm van het Germaanse flauma, dat "overstroomd gebied" betekent”

So, what WIKI actually says is "Vlaanderen" -> coming from the Latinised version of  "flooded area"
But, as we know: Latin was not the original language spoken here.

Latin actually, is not that old as pretended and tend to use local names and make a Latinised version of it
(-> more Latin texts are found in France and Germany than in Italy sic!, same with Greek in Greece)

"Phleu/Fleu" (nowadays Vloeien, Vloeden, Vlied, Vlieden) -> flood of the sea ('t Vleut, 't VLied) -> Fleu-Landern (or Flie-Landern) -> pronounced Fl-Landern
The 'Vlemschen' (Phleu-menschen, Phlemschen, Flemschen,Pleumosii in Latin) are people living around the estuarium  -> or now mostly called the 'Vlamschen' (Vlam-inghen)

Below just for reference (and the relevant parts are translated above ;-)