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Atlantis


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#1981    docyabut2

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 11:55 AM

View PostPanos89, on 05 February 2013 - 01:50 AM, said:

Thera and Crete were parts of a place/empire (mythical?) named as Αιγιής (sound like Hegeys in english).Imagine the Aegean Sea as a valley,with where the islands exist nowdays as a mountains.

Posted Image

This was known from the ancient world so those Egyptians priests that talked to Solon the Athenian and Plato is telling us the Story through Timaios and Critias dialogs, knew the difference between those to places/empires.

Also in the dialogs the egyptian priest is talking about another Athens... not the same as the days of Solon.That Athens were located near nowdays Boitia. Another point is that the location of Atlantis was outside the Hercules pillars... nowdays Gibraltar. Both places were destroyed by mother nature... Atlantis in a night... Hegeys in few years as a cause of the floods during the ice-melting (4 of em in Greek Mythology, historians believe that the 1st one vanished Hegeys).

I know that all these sound as a fairytale but in ancient greek, "mythology" comes from "μυθω/μυω" (=Mytho/Myo, im wispering something to the initiates) and "Λόγος" (=Logos,the way to express our thoughts, speak), so it's a story that only those who are initiates will understand, a code.That's why fairytale in greek is "παραμύθι" wich means Not-a-myth.




I believe the dialogues described Athens as where it is today.

Plato
Now the city in those days was arranged on this wise. In the first place the Acropolis was not as now. For the fact is that a single night of excessive rain washed away the earth and laid bare the rock; at the same time there were earthquakes, and then occurred the extraordinary inundation, which was the third before the great destruction of Deucalion. But in primitive times the hill of the Acropolis extended to the Eridanus and Ilissus, and included the Pnyx on one side, and the Lycabettus as a boundary on the opposite side to the Pnyx, and was all well covered with soil, and level at the top, except in one or two places


#1982    docyabut2

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 12:12 PM

Abramelin qoute-

But how do you explain that Thera and Crete have never sunk?

(to only inflict punishment on them, that they might be chastened and improve)


How do you explain the difference in size with Plato's Atlantis?

(greater in power then than Libya and Asia put together)

Where are your Pillars of Hercules?

(In the Aegean)

How about the timeline?
(The Kings of Athens of the war - the 1500 bc`s


#1983    Abramelin

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 02:44 PM

View Postdocyabut2, on 05 February 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:

Abramelin qoute-

But how do you explain that Thera and Crete have never sunk?

(to only inflict punishment on them, that they might be chastened and improve)


How do you explain the difference in size with Plato's Atlantis?

(greater in power then than Libya and Asia put together)

Where are your Pillars of Hercules?

(In the Aegean)

How about the timeline?
(The Kings of Athens of the war - the 1500 bc`s

In short: no explanation.

Atlantis is said to have sunk below sea level. Exit Thera/Crete.

Atlantis was not greater in power than, but larger than Libya and Asia combined.

And 1500 BCE is NOT 9600 BCE.

Where in the Aegean are those Pillars?

.

Edited by Abramelin, 05 February 2013 - 02:45 PM.


#1984    docyabut2

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 02:28 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 05 February 2013 - 02:44 PM, said:

In short: no explanation.

Atlantis is said to have sunk below sea level. Exit Thera/Crete.

Atlantis was not greater in power than, but larger than Libya and Asia combined.

And 1500 BCE is NOT 9600 BCE.

Where in the Aegean are those Pillars?

.



Amongst others, the two southward-pointing headlands on each side of the Gulf of Laconia were pillars of Heracles. Then, to the Greeks, a large island with one end just outside the pillars of Heracles could only have meant Crete. The exotic civilization of Atlantis could then have been the Minoan civilization, which threatened the mainland Greek and Anatolian cultures not 9,000 but 900 years before Solon. Support for a Peloponnesian location for the pillars comes, unexpectedly, from Egypt. The Medinet Habu texts, dating from 1200 BC, describe the Sea Peoples invading from islands to the north (possibly the Aegean) ‘from the pillars of heaven’, by which the Egyptians probably meant that the invaders came from the end of the world as they knew it.

http://historyofourp...t.blogspot.com/


#1985    Abramelin

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 03:34 AM

View Postdocyabut2, on 06 February 2013 - 02:28 AM, said:

Amongst others, the two southward-pointing headlands on each side of the Gulf of Laconia were pillars of Heracles. Then, to the Greeks, a large island with one end just outside the pillars of Heracles could only have meant Crete. The exotic civilization of Atlantis could then have been the Minoan civilization, which threatened the mainland Greek and Anatolian cultures not 9,000 but 900 years before Solon. Support for a Peloponnesian location for the pillars comes, unexpectedly, from Egypt. The Medinet Habu texts, dating from 1200 BC, describe the Sea Peoples invading from islands to the north (possibly the Aegean) ‘from the pillars of heaven’, by which the Egyptians probably meant that the invaders came from the end of the world as they knew it.

http://historyofourp...t.blogspot.com/

So you just change 9000 years before Solon into 900 years before Solon because then you have some events that you think have to do with Plato's Atlantis.

But however much you twist the story, Crete/Thera will never be larger than Libya and Asia combined, and both are still above sea level.

.


#1986    docyabut2

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 11:35 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 06 February 2013 - 03:34 AM, said:

So you just change 9000 years before Solon into 900 years before Solon because then you have some events that you think have to do with Plato's Atlantis.

But however much you twist the story, Crete/Thera will never be larger than Libya and Asia combined, and both are still above sea level.

.
Plato
But at a later time there occurred portentous earthquakes and floods, and one grievous day and night befell them, when the whole body of your warriors was swallowed up by the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner was swallowed up by the sea and vanished; wherefore also the sea at that spot has now become impassable and unsearchable, being blocked up by the shoal mud which the island created as it settled down.


The tale says the island was swallowed up by the sea and vanished at the time (possiable tsumani)  but now was a shoal of visiable mud as the island setted down.

The priest said now as the mud was also seen in his time 550bc in telling Solon.



They say there was a great harbor off Thera that may have disappear ,where many people may have died.

Edited by docyabut2, 06 February 2013 - 12:34 PM.


#1987    Harte

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 06:26 PM

View Postdocyabut2, on 06 February 2013 - 02:28 AM, said:

Amongst others, the two southward-pointing headlands on each side of the Gulf of Laconia were pillars of Heracles. Then, to the Greeks, a large island with one end just outside the pillars of Heracles could only have meant Crete. The exotic civilization of Atlantis could then have been the Minoan civilization, which threatened the mainland Greek and Anatolian cultures not 9,000 but 900 years before Solon.

No.

Quote

And he named them all; the eldest, who was the first king, he named Atlas, and after him the whole island and the ocean were called Atlantic. To his twin brother, who was born after him, and obtained as his lot the extremity of the island towards the Pillars of Heracles, facing the country which is now called the region of Gades in that part of the world, he gave the name which in the Hellenic language is Eumelus, in the language of the country which is named after him, Gadeirus.
Source: Critias
Find out where Gades is.  (Hint, that was the Greek name for Cadiz.)  Then you'll see they weren't talking about Thera at all.

Believe me.  We've all been all over this a thousand times.

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#1988    Proclus

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 06:34 PM

View PostHarte, on 06 February 2013 - 06:26 PM, said:

Source: Critias
Find out where Gades is.  (Hint, that was the Greek name for Cadiz.)  Then you'll see they weren't talking about Thera at all.

Believe me.  We've all been all over this a thousand times.

You surely agree that the priest in the Atlantis account allegedly said that the sea straits was called Pillars of Hercules in "your" language, resp. in "your" culture. This simply means that the alleged Egyptian account in the eyes of Plato (real or invention) did not contain the word "Pillars of Hercules". If this is an invention, it is a pretty good one because Plato then even thought on cultural differences in naming. If it is not an invention, then this opens the possibility that the Egyptian priest made a mistake in translating an Egyptian location description into a Greek phrase (including Gades, then). You surely agree that we basically have these two possibilities (where you surely will choose the invention).

Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place: www.Atlantis-Scout.de!

#1989    Harte

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 10:19 PM

If you are counting on a mistake, then you are also making one.

Harte

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#1990    docyabut2

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 12:43 AM

View PostHarte, on 06 February 2013 - 06:26 PM, said:

No.


Source: Critias
Find out where Gades is.  (Hint, that was the Greek name for Cadiz.)  Then you'll see they weren't talking about Thera at all.

Believe me.  We've all been all over this a thousand times.

Harte

The old greek writers didn`n t place Hercules out of the Pelopnnese.


Gades was Jowett `s translation, Gades was named by the romans hundreds of years after Solon, it was not Solon`s translation


#1991    docyabut2

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 01:50 AM

Where Were the Pillars of Hercules?
'The reference to the "PILLARS OF HERCULES" (which are always taken to mean the Straits of Gibralta) are, however, a DIFFICULTY and an ANOMALY in this explanation [regarding the location of Atlantis]. Is it possible, then, that the "PILLARS OF HERCULES" are NOT the Straits of Gibralta?
'This has been the subject of some interesting conjectures. Nearly all the labours of Hercules were PERFORMED IN THE PELOPONNESE. The last and hardest of those which Eurytheus imposed on the hero was to descend to Hades and bring back its three-headed dog guardian, Cerberus. According to the most general version Hercules entered Hades through the abyss at CAPE TAENARUN (the modern CAPE MATAPAN), the WESTERN CAPE OF THE GULF OF LACONIA. The EASTERN CAPE of this gulf is CAPE MALEAS, a dangerous promontory, notorious for its rough seas.
'Pausanias records that on EITHER SIDE of this windswept promontory were TEMPLES, that on the west dedicated to POSEIDON, that on the east to APOLLO. It is perhaps therefore not extravagant to suggest that the PILLARS OF HERCULES referred to are THE PROMONTORIES OF TAENARUM AND MALEAS; and it is perhaps significant that the twin brother of ATLAS was allotted the EXTEMITY OF ATLANTIS CLOSEST TO THE PILLARS OF HERCULES. The relevant passage in the Critias (114A-B) states:
'"And the name of his younger twin-brother, who had for his portion the extremity of the island near the pillars of Hercules up to the part of the country now called GADEIRA after the name of that region, was EUMELUS in Greek, but in the native tongue GADEIRUS -- which fact may have given its title to the country."
'Since the region had been named after the second son of Poseidon, whose Greek name was EUMELUS, its Greek title must likewise have been EUMELUS, a name which BRINGS TO MIND THE MOST WESTERLY OF THE CYCLADES, MELOS, which is in fact not far from the notorious CAPE MALEAS. The name EUMELUS was in use in the Cyclades; and the ancient inscription ("EUMELUS an excellent danger") was found on a rock ON THE ISLAND OF THERA.
'In general it can be argued from a number of points in Plato's narrative that PLACING "THE PILLARS OF HERCULES" AT THE SOUTH OF THE PELOPONNESE makes sense, while identifying them with the Straits of Gilbralta DOES NOT.
-- Atlantis: The Truth Behind the Legend, by A.G. Galanopoulos & Edward Bacon. Thomas Nelson & Sons Ltd., N.J. 1969. P.97


#1992    Everdred

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 03:56 AM

View Postdocyabut2, on 07 February 2013 - 12:43 AM, said:

The old greek writers didn`n t place Hercules out of the Pelopnnese.


Gades was Jowett `s translation, Gades was named by the romans hundreds of years after Solon, it was not Solon`s translation

Yes, "Gades" is a translation, but it's a translation of what Plato wrote, ΓΑΔΕΙΡΑ (Gadeira), the Greek name for Cadiz.


View Postdocyabut2, on 07 February 2013 - 01:50 AM, said:

Where Were the Pillars of Hercules?
'The reference to the "PILLARS OF HERCULES" (which are always taken to mean the Straits of Gibralta) are, however, a DIFFICULTY and an ANOMALY in this explanation [regarding the location of Atlantis]. Is it possible, then, that the "PILLARS OF HERCULES" are NOT the Straits of Gibralta?
'This has been the subject of some interesting conjectures. Nearly all the labours of Hercules were PERFORMED IN THE PELOPONNESE. The last and hardest of those which Eurytheus imposed on the hero was to descend to Hades and bring back its three-headed dog guardian, Cerberus. According to the most general version Hercules entered Hades through the abyss at CAPE TAENARUN (the modern CAPE MATAPAN), the WESTERN CAPE OF THE GULF OF LACONIA. The EASTERN CAPE of this gulf is CAPE MALEAS, a dangerous promontory, notorious for its rough seas.
'Pausanias records that on EITHER SIDE of this windswept promontory were TEMPLES, that on the west dedicated to POSEIDON, that on the east to APOLLO. It is perhaps therefore not extravagant to suggest that the PILLARS OF HERCULES referred to are THE PROMONTORIES OF TAENARUM AND MALEAS; and it is perhaps significant that the twin brother of ATLAS was allotted the EXTEMITY OF ATLANTIS CLOSEST TO THE PILLARS OF HERCULES. The relevant passage in the Critias (114A- B) states:
'"And the name of his younger twin-brother, who had for his portion the extremity of the island near the pillars of Hercules up to the part of the country now called GADEIRA after the name of that region, was EUMELUS in Greek, but in the native tongue GADEIRUS -- which fact may have given its title to the country."
'Since the region had been named after the second son of Poseidon, whose Greek name was EUMELUS, its Greek title must likewise have been EUMELUS, a name which BRINGS TO MIND THE MOST WESTERLY OF THE CYCLADES, MELOS, which is in fact not far from the notorious CAPE MALEAS. The name EUMELUS was in use in the Cyclades; and the ancient inscription ("EUMELUS an excellent danger") was found on a rock ON THE ISLAND OF THERA.
'In general it can be argued from a number of points in Plato's narrative that PLACING "THE PILLARS OF HERCULES" AT THE SOUTH OF THE PELOPONNESE makes sense, while identifying them with the Straits of Gilbralta DOES NOT.
-- Atlantis: The Truth Behind the Legend, by A.G. Galanopoulos & Edward Bacon. Thomas Nelson & Sons Ltd., N.J. 1969. P.97

So the idea here is that Plato, an educated Greek, ignored all the previous writers who used the term "Pillars of Herakles" for the Strait of Gibraltar, and instead used tt to denote two capes, neither of which are particularly high, nor at all resembling a pillar, and of which only one has association with Herakles?

That's just ridiculous.


#1993    Proclus

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 09:00 AM

View PostHarte, on 06 February 2013 - 10:19 PM, said:

If you are counting on a mistake, then you are also making one.

Your answer does not satisfy scientific standards. First, you avoided to talk on the statement I made. Then, you denied the possibility of a mistake without any reasons. Could you please realize that a scientific treatment of Plato's Atlantis story requires some more precision and differentation? Thank you. In the end, nobody prevents you from concluding that it is not real, so your behaviour of denial even the least concessions is not understandable. Dogmatism is not science.

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#1994    Abramelin

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 09:13 AM

Docyabut2,

How old is that inscription on Thera? I mean the inscription that was being translated as "EUMELUS an excellent danger".

Is that translation even correct and what does it suggest if it is?


#1995    Verloc

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 11:06 AM

@Qoais:

Very well explained.One thing you omitted though, Plato and other sources, also spoke of great statues guarding the entrance to the mediterranean, which is the Iberian Strait between North Africa and Spain, and that the island of Atlantis was situated not far from these statues in the atlantic ocean.

At the University where I studied I had access to very old maps in the archive.To my amazement several of these maps depicted a large island mass just of the entrance to the Iberian Strait.
Most of these maps were made in the 15th Century ad, however there were Arabic maps made somewhere in the late 8th Century ad that also depicted this island.

I found this to be very interesting and strange, because as you continue onward from the 15th Century, the maps do not show this island anymore.

Personally I think Atlantis did exist, but as for the stories of an extremely advanced civilization, wielding firearms and flying ships, I find that highly doubtfull.





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