69 replies to this topic

[ali smack]

do you believe morallity exists and if so what do you think it is?

[RazielKTB]

?

[ShadowSot]

ali smack, on 14 July 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

do you believe morallity exists and if so what do you think it is?

What do you mean exactly?
Do you mean some explicit objective morality?
If so, then no, not really.
  In human culture you'll find  that the only universal is, I think, murder is bad.
Stealing might be second but the idea of property varies somewhat among cultures, though I'll admit her my in depth knowledge isn't as good as I'd like it to be.

I certainly believe in a subjective morality, and I think that even among those who claim objective morality, like the religious, also follow what is really a subjective morality. (Look at what the Bible forbids, for example, and it's rituals, versus today's Christians as an example.)

Each culture has what they recognize as good and bad, as moral and immoral. The philosophy of the culture lends itself to determining the morality of the culture.

For myself, I subscribe to a humanistic view of morality.
Many people have written about morality,  both from a secular and religious perspective, and so morality as a concept certainly does exist.
However, that it exists separate from human interests I doubt. Rather it is a concept that we give meaning to.

You may want to narrow or refine your post in order to get more and more indepth replies.

[Super-Fly]

Not to any great degree, personally.

i do as i do, regardless of right or wrong.

i suppose.

[and then]

I believe we have an inherent sense of right and wrong called conscience.  When we violate it we suffer consequences.  It expresses itself in different cultures, different ways but it is universally present.

[Leave Britney alone!]

Yes, morality is a built in system of humans but will vary from culture to culture. It is not true that only religion offers morality, even the Bible admits to this in Romans 2 vs 14-15.

ShadowSot, on 14 July 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

What do you mean exactly?
Do you mean some explicit objective morality?
If so, then no, not really.
  In human culture you'll find  that the only universal is, I think, murder is bad.
Stealing might be second but the idea of property varies somewhat among cultures, though I'll admit her my in depth knowledge isn't as good as I'd like it to be.

I certainly believe in a subjective morality, and I think that even among those who claim objective morality, like the religious, also follow what is really a subjective morality. (Look at what the Bible forbids, for example, and it's rituals, versus today's Christians as an example.)

Each culture has what they recognize as good and bad, as moral and immoral. The philosophy of the culture lends itself to determining the morality of the culture.

For myself, I subscribe to a humanistic view of morality.
Many people have written about morality,  both from a secular and religious perspective, and so morality as a concept certainly does exist.
However, that it exists separate from human interests I doubt. Rather it is a concept that we give meaning to.

You may want to narrow or refine your post in order to get more and more indepth replies.

Well unsure if it would contradict your statement regarding the universality of murder being bad. Some cultures had murder built into their judicial systems in the form of the duel or combat to the death to settle disputes. The Franks were one and only turned to Roman law as they moved out of the forests and into the vacuum that Rome left behind then taking up many of Rome's former offices and practices including laws.

Edited by Lookitisoneofthosepeople, 14 July 2012 - 07:48 PM.

[Biff Wellington]

It's all aesthetics if you ask me.

[ShadowSot]

and then, on 14 July 2012 - 07:41 PM, said:

I believe we have an inherent sense of right and wrong called conscience.  When we violate it we suffer consequences.  It expresses itself in different cultures, different ways but it is universally present.

I disagree. I can't think of a single proscription, except against murder, that is universal amongst all cultures. Even in the case of murder that could simply be due to my own ignorance.

It also depends on how you define murder. Does it only count if you recognize  the person being killed as equal unto yourself?
If that's the case, then as LookitisOneofThosePeople pointed out, does institutionalized duels, death penalties, and similar count? If it does, then this is not a universal morality.



In the case of murder only being the case only if you do not recognize the person being killed as equal, then it does count as a universal morality. It's present in the Old Testament, in Ancient Egypt, and is still present in the mentality of modern warfare.

[and then]

ShadowSot, on 14 July 2012 - 07:57 PM, said:

I disagree. I can't think of a single proscription, except against murder, that is universal amongst all cultures. Even in the case of murder that could simply be due to my own ignorance.

It also depends on how you define murder. Does it only count if you recognize  the person being killed as equal unto yourself?
If that's the case, then as LookitisOneofThosePeople pointed out, does institutionalized duels, death penalties, and similar count? If it does, then this is not a universal morality.



In the case of murder only being the case only if you do not recognize the person being killed as equal, then it does count as a universal morality. It's present in the Old Testament, in Ancient Egypt, and is still present in the mentality of modern warfare.

This is where we diverge.  It is this aspect of written condemnation of a behavior.  I believe that morality is an inherent part of our minds that need never be written down or enforced.  We choose freely if we will go against it but we will suffer consequences if we do.  The more often one goes against this inner voice the easier it becomes until that voice will not be heard any longer.  I believe there are absolutes of right and wrong behavior that primarily involve our treatment of others.  The trend today seems to be for people to do anything they like and no one else has a right to judge them but what they don't believe (and I do) is that breaking with this part of ourselves brings inescapable harm to us.  I can argue that gravity doesn't exist all that I like but if I jump from a high place, certain events will inevitably take place unless they are mitigated somehow.

[Junior Chubb]

ali smack, on 14 July 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

do you believe morallity exists and if so what do you think it is?

I believe morality exists, without it we would not be where we are now and the future would be bleak. Morality has shaped our direction and help build the societies we live in today, where would we if we had no distinction between right and wrong?

I think the question should be whether we learn our morality or is within us all from birth? I would say the majority of our morality is taught to us (but this is always tainted by a persons perspective), and that is built on a natural feeling for what's 'right' (good).

[ShadowSot]

and then, on 14 July 2012 - 09:58 PM, said:

This is where we diverge.  It is this aspect of written condemnation of a behavior.  I believe that morality is an inherent part of our minds that need never be written down or enforced.  We choose freely if we will go against it but we will suffer consequences if we do.  The more often one goes against this inner voice the easier it becomes until that voice will not be heard any longer.  I believe there are absolutes of right and wrong behavior that primarily involve our treatment of others.  The trend today seems to be for people to do anything they like and no one else has a right to judge them but what they don't believe (and I do) is that breaking with this part of ourselves brings inescapable harm to us.  I can argue that gravity doesn't exist all that I like but if I jump from a high place, certain events will inevitably take place unless they are mitigated somehow.

  So instead of saying that separate cultures have developed separate moralities, do you feel that your personal cultural upbringing is the most correct one?


The only thing I can say that definitely drives morality is the sense of being a part of a culture. If you act outside of that cultures norm, you'll likely face shunning or be outright banned from it.

[Hilander]

I think morality comes from inside of each of us.  My definition of morality may be different from someone else.  I think most can agree murder, cheating, telling lies about or to someone is immoral.

[ShadowSot]

Hilander, on 14 July 2012 - 10:17 PM, said:

I think morality comes from inside of each of us.  My definition of morality may be different from someone else.  I think most can agree murder, cheating, telling lies about or to someone is immoral.

  Depends on the circumstances.

Also, it's worth noting that most here would agree and were raised on morality from their community which was spread (though not intrinsic to) the Catholic Church. We all agree because we all received the same or similar teaching as children.

[hetrodoxly]

It depends on what you mean by morality? if it's the religious thou shall cover all parts of the body etc, no that's man made  perverse and should be resisted at all costs, helping each other out being kind and such like is an evolutionary trait inherent in humankind.

[and then]

ShadowSot, on 14 July 2012 - 10:06 PM, said:

  So instead of saying that separate cultures have developed separate moralities, do you feel that your personal cultural upbringing is the most correct one?


The only thing I can say that definitely drives morality is the sense of being a part of a culture. If you act outside of that cultures norm, you'll likely face shunning or be outright banned from it.

I definitely do not think that western, in my case US, mores are superior to any other part of the planet.  I'm simply saying that I believe what we all call morality is an "inside" job.  Once it has been codified and placed as some demand on people it becomes a negative rather than a positive force.