Frisland – not mythical but submarine?

[lightly]

(click to enlarge)

Yes, rivers, 25 or more millions of years old...

hi Abramelin.. i was thinkin... was New Zealand far enough south to be affected by the Pleistocene ??

Probably was affected? You say the rivers in the above image were formed 25 M+ years ago ... i am wondering.. would 25 million year old riverbeds still be as distinct? see what i'm trying to say??

sorry to wander off Frisland topic.. but this river/ravine thing is interesting too?

[Abramelin]

Hello Abramelin,

I was just wondering,as most references to the ice age seem to follow what occured after the last one.When I was reading an article a few years ago at the doctors office about the extinction of the mega-beasts in N.America.The article indicated that there have been 13-16?ice ages in history.It would be interesting to see if they all happened in the same geographical areas or if there were other areas of the planet were affected due to the status of the earths condition at that time.jmccr8

Hi Jmccr8, I know there were many before, but, lol, I could only find detailed info on the last one, so that's why I talked about it. There may have been more ancient ice ages when the ice sheets covered even more of teh area of the Celtic Shelf.

[Abramelin]

Boy, it's an AWFULLY close match, isn't it? Supposedly there's an ancient map of Antarctica showing the actual coastline beneath all the ice. I guess if someone actually had access to that information they could also have access to this information. The sea was a lot lower during the Ice Age but this part of the world would have been under miles of glacial ice at that time.

In some was the western coast of Frisland matches Iceland so closely it's difficult to believe it isn't two depictions of the same coast with and without ice. The bay marked Sanefiol (or whatever that says) is pretty near the bay between Akranes and Reykjavik.

I wonder if the 14th century maps could be a composite of several different maps including an ancient traditional maps from that part of the world? How fascinating.

Hi Siara,

Iceland was already on the maps during Zeno's time; Friesland island and a couple of other 'mythical' islands were placed near Iceland and Greenland on those maps.

I hope you read what was written before; personally I am convinced it was nothing but the Faroe Islands. And that's because of the place names and because the Faroer were inhabited by Frisian pirates.

[Abramelin]

(click to enlarge)

hi Abramelin.. i was thinkin... was New Zealand far enough south to be affected by the Pleistocene ??

Probably was affected? You say the rivers in the above image were formed 25 M+ years ago ... i am wondering.. would 25 million year old riverbeds still be as distinct? see what i'm trying to say??

sorry to wander off Frisland topic.. but this river/ravine thing is interesting too?

I don't know if it was far enough south then, and I don't know how far the ice sheets reached during more ancient ice ages, millions of years ago. They researched that area, and know it sank like 26 or more millions of years ago.

Yes, I know what you are trying to say, but I noticed those rivers almost touch the coast of present day New Zealand. You would have to check if there is a river on NZ that is almost close to the beginning of that submarine river. The outflow of that river onland could keep the ancient riverbed on the sea floor in existence.

--

Found something about New Zealand, not Zealandia:

The map below shows the approximate coastline during the lowest sea level of the last ice age, about 30,000 years ago. Sea level began to rise towards present about 20,000 years ago but rose in stages. Some of the more recent rise is possibly the source of flood myths around the world. However, NZ was not inhabited at that time.

http://ncealevel2sci.wikispaces.com/file/view/nzpleistocene2.png/92554072/nzpleistocene2.png

From:

http://ncealevel2sci.wikispaces.com/Geology

It could be that your rivers were carved out by glaciers.

.

Edited July 28, 2010 by Abramelin

[lightly]

Abramelin , Thanks a lot for the info ... according to that image of the last glacial max, it looks like N.Z. was affected only on the higher altitudes by snow/ice accumulation, rather than being plowed over repeatedly by ice sheets , as here in the Great Lakes... But .. who knows.. the Ice ages waxed and waned for some 200 million years?) i'll have to read most of the 2nd link later... (too bad most of the images turn into question marks with this slow dial up connection! ! ).... i'll see if i can find a present day river that matches up with the submerged one. Sort of doubt it tho.. because of the many smaller branches flowing together to form the larger river .. in typical river fashion.

* ( Sorry for the detour again Riaan, just interested in the river/ravine question)

Edited July 28, 2010 by lightly

[Abramelin]

Abramelin , Thanks a lot for the info ... according to that image of the last glacial max, it looks like N.Z. was affected only on the higher altitudes by snow/ice accumulation, rather than being plowed over repeatedly by ice sheets , as here in the Great Lakes... But .. who knows.. the Ice ages waxed and waned for some 200 million years?) i'll have to read most of the 2nd link later... (too bad most of the images turn into question marks with this slow dial up connection! ! ).... i'll see if i can find a present day river that matches up with the submerged one. Sort of doubt it tho.. because of the many smaller branches flowing together to form the larger river .. in typical river fashion.

* ( Sorry for the detour again Riaan, just interested in the river/ravine question)

Omg, you're on dial up??

Can you even see all the images posted inthis thread?

--

Well they surveyed the area, took samples, analyzed it, and came to the conclusion Zealandia submerged many millions of years ago. But the area with the rivers doesn't appear to be that far down (not as those 'rivers' in the Porcupine Seabight), so maybe they were indeed shaped by real rivers, many thousands of years ago.

.

Edited July 28, 2010 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Hurray!!

Sorry, off topic again, but I found the animation of the Porcupine Seabight:

http://www.awi.de/no_cache/en/research/research_divisions/geosciences/marine_geology_and_paleontology/research_themes/bathymetry_and_geodesy/porcupine_seabight_geomound/?cid=12771&did=13595&sechash=e424a57b

And I opened it with Windows Media Player.

It's from this site:

http://www.awi.de/en/research/research_divisions/geosciences/marine_geology_and_paleontology/research_themes/bathymetry_and_geodesy/porcupine_seabight_geomound/

.

Edited July 28, 2010 by Abramelin

[Siara]

Iceland was already on the maps during Zeno's time; Friesland island and a couple of other 'mythical' islands were placed near Iceland and Greenland on those maps.

I hope you read what was written before; personally I am convinced it was nothing but the Faroe Islands. And that's because of the place names and because the Faroer were inhabited by Frisian pirates.

It strikes me as possible that a coastline could be counted twice if someone's celestial navigation were off. Say... their exploratory voyage was a loop. They could have encountered Iceland during the first part of the loop, then when they were returning seen it again under different conditions, misread their sextants and thought, "Hey, here's another island shaped a bit like Iceland".

From the little I read about this yesterday (I did read the entire thread- I'm just not very sharp on this interesting topic) I gather that the Faroe Islands are considered a good bet for Frisland.

[Abramelin]

It strikes me as possible that a coastline could be counted twice if someone's celestial navigation were off. Say... their exploratory voyage was a loop. They could have encountered Iceland during the first part of the loop, then when they were returning seen it again under different conditions, misread their sextants and thought, "Hey, here's another island shaped a bit like Iceland".

From the little I read about this yesterday (I did read the entire thread- I'm just not very sharp on this interesting topic) I gather that the Faroe Islands are considered a good bet for Frisland.

There appear to be like 3 options;

-1- The Zeno brothers fabricated it all;

-2- They made a mistake, much like you suggested;

-3- They gave it the name under which the island was known for many: Friesland Island, and all that because of those Frisian pirates that lived on it.

I just found this:

It is now known that the narrative was manufactured by the younger Zeno himself not long before the publication of the book, and the same is true of the map. So it does in no way reflect geographical knowledge in the 14th century. We now know that Zeno´s principal sources were Olaus Magnus´ map of the North, the Caerte van Oostland of Cornelis Anthoniszoon, and old maps of the North of the Claudius Clavus type with elements taken from southern sea charts of the 15th and 16th centuries. Zeno probably put the book and map together for the purpose of giving Venice, the author´s native city, the credit for discovering America more than a century ahead of Columbus. In the bottom left hand corner we see two lands (Estotiland and Drogeo) that perhaps represent the eastern coast of America.

As for Zeno´s Iceland, we need not look far to its sources, it is obviously taken from Carta Marina. The mountains, rivers and all the pictures are gone and the ice floes off the east coast on Olaus´ map have become islands.

In spite of its discreditable parentage, the Zeno map was to have a remarkable career. For the next 40 years it influenced most maps that were made of Iceland.

Edited Appletons Encyclopedia, by John Looby Copyright © 2001 StanKlos.comTM

http://www.famousamericans.net/nicolozen0/

[Riaan]

What did I ask?

"(Riaan) Why is it that only you think that these 'rivers' must have been created when our ancestors were there to watch it happen??"

[Riaan]

And I opened it with Windows Media Player.

I downloaded the file, but WMP tells me that my current settings "do not allow this action". Any idea what the problem could be?

[Abramelin]

I downloaded the file, but WMP tells me that my current settings "do not allow this action". Any idea what the problem could be?

You have the latest version?

[Riaan]

You have the latest version?

Yes, indeed. Confirmed it again.

[Abramelin]

Yes, indeed. Confirmed it again.

I have a better idea than go through all this Windows headache.

I will copy the video, post it on YouTube, and then you can watch it.

How about that?

--

EDIT:

OK, done.

I have to add, though, that this is not the animation I originally watched. The original one was like flying over the surface of Mars.

But anyway, here it is:

Edited July 28, 2010 by Abramelin

[Riaan]

I have a better idea than go through all this Windows headache.

I will copy the video, post it on YouTube, and then you can watch it.

How about that?

Great!

[Abramelin]

Heh, to you and everybody responding to my posts: WAIT till I am finished editing. I edit almost every post of mine.

Did you read my edit??

[Riaan]

Heh, to you and everybody responding to my posts: WAIT till I am finished editing. I edit almost every post of mine.

Did you read my edit??

Yes, I did now. Very interesting video. Still convinced the river bed is just that!

[Abramelin]

Yes, I did now. Very interesting video. Still convinced the river bed is just that!

Well yeah, maybe you are right... a river bed... a many millions of years old river bed.

[Riaan]

Well yeah, maybe you are right... a river bed... a many millions of years old river bed.

Yes, you are absolutely right. Two points,

1) When did the Porcupine Seabight become submerged? There is no proof that this happened millions of years ago. It could have happened 12 000 years ago.

2) The formation of the submarine canyons through turbidity currents is nonsense.

[Abramelin]

Yes, you are absolutely right. Two points,

1) When did the Porcupine Seabight become submerged? There is no proof that this happened millions of years ago. It could have happened 12 000 years ago.

2) The formation of the submarine canyons through turbidity currents is nonsense.

No, I quit now.

I am not going to do your work again, YOU claim something, now YOU prove it.

And you won´t prove anything with fancy and distorted maps.

Prove your claims with scientific documents, or continue living in dreamland.

I already have to deal with lots of people here who are too lazy or too stupid to Google or to read books.

I am getting quite fed up with that.

I am not your teacher, and certainly not your counseler.

Prove what you believe in, have some balls, search and find, or fail.

That's it.

.

Edited July 28, 2010 by Abramelin

[Qoais]

THAT looks like THIS

[Swede]

Abramelin , Thanks a lot for the info ... according to that image of the last glacial max, it looks like N.Z. was affected only on the higher altitudes by snow/ice accumulation, rather than being plowed over repeatedly by ice sheets , as here in the Great Lakes... But .. who knows.. the Ice ages waxed and waned for some 200 million years?) i'll have to read most of the 2nd link later... (too bad most of the images turn into question marks with this slow dial up connection! ! ).... i'll see if i can find a present day river that matches up with the submerged one. Sort of doubt it tho.. because of the many smaller branches flowing together to form the larger river .. in typical river fashion.

* ( Sorry for the detour again Riaan, just interested in the river/ravine question)

Hi lightly,

Apologies for interjecting, but just a humble correction. The Pleistocene (the "ice ages") date back to circa 2.6 million. 200 million would place you at about the beginning of the Jurassic.

.

[lightly]

Hi lightly,

Apologies for interjecting, but just a humble correction. The Pleistocene (the "ice ages") date back to circa 2.6 million. 200 million would place you at about the beginning of the Jurassic.

.

oooops! sorry. Thank You Swede.

[Abramelin]

New Zealand’s coastline in the ice age

In the last major glacial period some 20,000 years ago, New Zealand’s land area was much larger, as the sea was 120–30 metres lower than its present level. The three main islands were joined together as a single island. During this period, rivers such as the Clutha, Rakaia and Waimakariri carried huge loads of sediment all the way to the edge of the continental shelf. The Waikato River (dashed line) originally flowed north and entered the sea on the eastern side of the North Island. About 20,000 years ago it changed to its present course.

http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/sea-floor-geology/3/1

>>> http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/sea-floor-geology/4

"Great South Basin"

http://www.gns.cri.nz/hydrocarbons/hc_nzsedbasins_4.html

"Head of Bounty Trough"

http://baby.indstate.edu/gomez/graphics/MarginsBounty5.jpg

http://baby.indstate.edu/gomez/margins.html

In the Eastern South Island Sedimentary System there is a rich record of contiguous sedimentary deposits contained in fluvial terraces, lakes, shelf edge clinoforms, canyon and fans throughout an entire glacioeustatic sea-level cycle. Under highstand conditions sediment shed from the actively rising New Zealand Alps is stored in lakes, terrestrial gravel fans, and on the shelf, where the sediment cover is a mixture of modern, relict and palimpsest deposits. Under lowstand conditions the rivers extend to canyon heads and discharge directly into the Bounty Trough. In the Waipaoa Sedimentary System sediment generated/mobilized from primary hillslope source areas by large magnitude, low frequency storm events is primarily sequestered on the floodplain and shelf.

The Eastern South Island Sedimentary System, comprising the Clutha, Waitaki and Rangitata river basins discharges onto a passive margin with a broad continental shelf. The major rivers constitute a line source and northward flowing, along-strike, currents influence sediment dispersal patterns offshore. Both onshore and offshore, the system is more complex than that of the Waipaoa. Thus, balancing the modern highstand sediment budgets is more difficult, but still feasible. At lowstand the system discharges into the Bounty Trough and Fan, and is virtually closed. The strength of this subarea lies in the rich record of terrestrial events (preserved in contiguous sedimentary deposits contained in terraces, lakes, shelf edge clinoforms, canyons and fans) for an entire glacioeustatic sea-level cycle, or longer. The focus here is, therefore, on larger scales, both spatial (~35 000 km2 source, ~250 000 km2 sink) and temporal (~105 kyr).

Although within sight of the transcurrent Alpine Fault section of the Australian/Pacific plate boundary, the eastern South Island margin to the south of Banks Peninsula, is a stable passive margin. The broad shelf experiences high sediment input from the actively rising New Zealand Alps, a strong imprint from eustatic changes in sea level, and a moderately vigorous along-shelf circulation system. The shelf between the Clutha and Rangitata is typically 30 to 80 km wide but reduces to 10 km off Otago Peninsula. The shelf break is at 125 to 165 m water depth and is locally indented by the heads of submarine canyons feeding the channel system in Bounty Trough. Shelf morphology is variable with zones of featureless seabed interspersed with ridge and swale topography, terraces and changes in slope that represent palaeoshorelines formed at previous stillstands of sea level.

Within the Waipaoa Sedimentary System, hinterland to shelf transport may be accomplished in tens to hundreds of hours. This permits attention to be focused on the conditions under which specific erosion events in the hinterland are translated to depositional sites on the floodplain and shelf. The major rivers of the Eastern South Island Sedimentary System constitute a line source and northward flowing, along-strike, currents influence sediment dispersal patterns offshore (sands are deposited on the inner shelf, muds move northward, and the Bounty Fan is inactive), though lakes now trap much of the sediment load of the Clutha and Waitaki rivers. The situation changes at lowstand, when the lakes are effaced by glaciation, the rivers discharge close to the head of Bounty Trough and sediment captured by submarine channels is transported by turbidity currents 900 km eastward to the Bounty Fan.

http://baby.indstate.edu/gomez/margins.html

http://baby.indstate.edu/gomez/graphics/MarginsBounty4.jpg

http://clasticdetritus.com/2009/04/12/sea-floor-sunday-44-bounty-trough-offshore-new-zealand/

http://bulletin.geoscienceworld.org/cgi/content/abstract/121/1-2/134

The bounty channel system: A 55-million-year-old sediment conduit to the deep sea, Southwest Pacific Ocean

Abstract The Bounty Channel system is located within the Bounty Trough, a Cretaceous rift on the eastern edge of the New Zealand microcontinent. Today, the system is fed with sediment from the eastern South Island shelf, through the Otago Fan complex. The main Bounty Channel is about 800 km long and forms a sediment transport link between the continental margin and the distal Bounty Fan, located at the mouth of the Bounty Trough and onlapping onto abyssal oceanic crust. The Bounty Channel system has existed in its present setting since the inception of the Alpine Fault plate boundary in the mid-Cenozoic, while ancestral marine channel systems occur back to the Paleocene.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/y73174n48777n702/

Evolution of Pliocene to Recent abyssal sediment waves on Bounty Channel levees, New Zealand

Abstract

Levees bordering Bounty Channel 900 km east of New Zealand accommodate a 400 m-thick sequence (maximum) of sediment waves that have formed since Pliocene times. These bedforms, with amplitudes of 2–17 m and wavelengths of 0.6–6 km occur in 4100–4900 m of water and were formed by turbidity currents, as indicated by their restriction to levee backslopes, the frequent occurrence of turbidites in cores and the preferential but not exclusive development of waves on the left-bank levee in accord with the Southern Hemisphere coriolis deflection.

The wave field was instigated in the Late Pliocene when glacially lowered sea level allowed rivers draining the Southern Alps of South Island to discharge directly into Bounty Channel and its attendant canyons. The field grew vertically through the coalescence of small waves into larger bedforms that continually migrated across and up levee backslopes at an average rate of 5.6m/100 yrs. Wave growth decreased into the Late Pleistocene probably in response to progressive containment of turbidity currents as the relief of Bounty Channel increased to 200 m or more.

The glacial periods of wave growth were interrupted by interglacial interludes of quiescence when the field was draped mainly by pelagic calcareous ooze.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V6M-489RKNN-2&_user=10&_coverDate=11%2F30%2F1990&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1415507929&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=9435101e5de8facdb0d2e0bf5c704c1d

[lightly]

Wow! Abramelin, Great detective work! ... you were right... the 'feature' located in (Bounty Trough) i supposed to be a river system is what your information calls a "deep-marine sedimentary system" What looks like stream tributaries joining a larger river is described as "tributary submarine canyons/channels coalescing into a single axial conduit down-system."

Anyway, good work bud! .. thanks for clearing up the mystery.

http://clasticdetritus.com/2009/04/12/sea-floor-sunday-44-bounty-trough-offshore-new-zealand/

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

... You asked about my dial up connection? Ya! it makes it hard for me to search... many images turn into question marks... and sites load VERY S l o w l y. I can see almost all images posted in the threads. Higher speed is simply not available here in " Frog Holler " .. a fairly deep wooded valley just past the middle of nowhere .

Edited July 30, 2010 by lightly