4026 replies to this topic

[Otharus]

De betsjutnis fan Tsjut's namme
(the meaning of Thoth's name)

They go on to discuss what is good or bad in writing. Socrates tells a brief legend, critically commenting on the gift of writing from the Egyptian god Theuth to King Thamus, who was to disperse Theuth's gifts to the people of Egypt. After Theuth remarks on his discovery of writing as a remedy for the memory, Thamus responds that its true effects are likely to be the opposite; it is a remedy for reminding, not remembering, he says, with the appearance but not the reality of wisdom. Future generations will hear much without being properly taught, and will appear wise but not be so, making them difficult to get along with. wikipedia/Phaedrus_dialogue



etymology
The Egyptian pronunciation of ḏḥwty is not fully known, but may be reconstructed as *ḏiḥautī, based on the Ancient Greek borrowing Θώθ Thōth or Theut and the fact that it evolved into Sahidic Coptic variously as Thoout, Thōth, Thoot, Thaut as well as Bohairic Coptic Thōout. wikipedia/Thoth

deuten (german) = duiden (dutch) = point, indicate, denote
bedeuten (g) = beduiden (d) = mean, sigify
Deutsch/ Duits, Dutch/ Diets (languages)

[013/18] Tex Frya's
THÀN SKILUN J HJA HJRA DVMHÉD BITJVTHA
[O+S p.23]
dan zult gij haar hare dwaasheid beduiden
explain to her her folly

[101/27] Andere deel Formleer
THISSA SÉKA MOTON KLÁR ÀND BÁR MÁKAD WRDA BY ALLE WISA.
SÁ HÀT HJAT ANOTHERA BITHJUTA ÀND BIWISA MÜGE
[O+S p.141]
Deze zaken moeten klaar en openbaar gemaakt worden op alle wijzen,
zoodat zij het aan anderen mogen beduiden en bewijzen.
These things must be made clear and manifest in every way,
so that they can be made clear and comprehensible to all.

[104/32] Taal en antwoord
BIFVNDEN HÀVANDE HO SÉR THET DVATH VMB.ALLÉNA TO TOBBANDE
ALSA BITHJUDE HIU HIRA BERN HO AND HWÉRVMBE HJU ALSA HÉDE DÉN
[O+S p.145]
Bevonden hebbende hoe zeer het doet, om alleen te tobben,
zoo beduidde zij hare kinderen, hoe en waarom zij zoo gedaan had.
Having found how hard it is to toil alone,
she showed her children how and why she had done it.

~ ~ ~

Conclusion: Thoth's name can be explained through the Fryan language.

And Diotima is THJUDEMÀM; duidemoeder (zieneres) of volksma...

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 29 November 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

According to Overwijn (1951) he found the next poem in the inheritance of an Emiel van Biervliet in Brugge/Bruges (Belgium) of some years before WWII;

Nice, but Emiel may have made it, inspired by the OLB?

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 29 November 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

Nice, but Emiel may have made it, inspired by the OLB?

That's what I thought too..

Anyway, here is the translation of the poem; it's no beauty, but it will do:


When we were still Frisian Flemings
and acknowledged Wrald and Odin,
came from Eire and Alba
a wonderful saga and a new doctrine.
From the hot deep down south a northern light -
even wider than the Middle Sea
where we settled on the rocky coast
A strange cold seized us:

"Of Od a human 'mirage';
a God spoke a Northern Truth:
of a straight and royal road.

A Son, so they told us, from Od's kin
found by shepherds in a mere manger"

By Thor, at first we were at a loss to know
if this announcement was good or bad
but fly this rumour did blindly,
from North- to East Sea with the wind !

And it did not hurt the Frisians
and it was no cause to repulse,
Surely the fire burned on Walcheren,
boats ("snikken") on the Sincfal scud along boldy,
with Alba and Eire we were united
before the sea separated us asunder.
We loved the cold, freedom's star,
and hearkened for more tidings from afar'.

Wrald and Odin always stand erect,
from before Boom's (**) beginning till the end !



** Boom = tree.
The World Tree or Yggdrasil??


(OK, done editing)


.

Edited by Abramelin, 29 November 2012 - 12:57 PM.

[Abramelin]

About this "Thoth"...

You'll remember Aventinus' Bayerische Chronik (Bavarian Chronicle)?

"Tuitsch"?

http://en.wikipedia....annes_Aventinus

"In his Chronik, Aventinus fabricated a succession of Teutonic kings stretching back to the Great Flood, ruling over vast swathes of Germany and surrounding regions until the 1st century BC, and involving themselves in numerous events from Biblical and Classical history.

These rulers and their exploits are mostly fictitious, though some are derived from mythological, legendary or historical figures. Examples of the latter are Boiger, Kels II and Teutenbuecher, whose joint reign is given as 127–100 BC, and who are based on King Boiorix of the Cimbri, the unnamed king of the Ambrones, and King Teutobod of the Teutons."


Now who would read such a chronicle.... a German perhaps? Like Ernst Stadermann, the friend and neighbour of Cornelis Over de Linden?

Of course, I posted about Aventinus long ago:

http://www.unexplain...5

http://www.unexplain...=184645&st=4215



.

Edited by Abramelin, 29 November 2012 - 01:13 PM.

[Abramelin]

Abramelin, on 29 November 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

That's what I thought too..

Anyway, here is the translation of the poem; it's no beauty, but it will do:


When we were still Frisian Flemings
and acknowledged Wrald and Odin,
came from Eire and Alba
a wonderful saga and a new doctrine.
From the hot deep down south a northern light -
even wider than the Middle Sea
where we settled on the rocky coast
A strange cold seized us:

"Of Od a human 'mirage';
a God spoke a Northern Truth:
of a straight and royal road.

A Son, so they told us, from Od's kin
found by shepherds in a mere manger"

By Thor, at first we were at a loss to know
if this announcement was good or bad
but fly this rumour did blindly,
from North- to East Sea with the wind !

And it did not hurt the Frisians
and it was no cause to repulse,
Surely the fire burned on Walcheren,
boats ("snikken") on the Sincfal scud along boldy,
with Alba and Eire we were united
before the sea separated us asunder.
We loved the cold, freedom's star,
and hearkened for more tidings from afar'.

Wrald and Odin always stand erect,
from before Boom's (**) beginning till the end !



** Boom = tree.
The World Tree or Yggdrasil??


(OK, done editing)


.

Hah, they were discussing the poem on the Nifterlaca (Delahaye) site:

http://www.nifterlac...8,5095#msg-5095

Dutch:
De oorsprong van het gedicht is in nevelen gehuld.
Er is een route die terugvoert naar Guido Gezelle, kenner van het Middelnederlands en het Fries. Hij had het vers in zijn bezit.

Een deel van Gezelle's papieren, inclusief dit vers, heeft hij nagelaten aan een huisknecht en protégé Emiel van Biervliet (een merkwaardig figuur). De inventaris van Van Biervliet is bij een brand verloren gegaan. Maar ...

Een pupil van Van Biervliet, ene Marcel van de Velde mocht ooit eens in die papieren snuffelen. Het gedicht trok kennelijk zijn speciale aandacht want hij pende het over. Aldus is het vers gered gebleven.

Van de Velde kende en correspondeerde met ene prof. G. van Oosterhout die op zijn beurt weer correspondeerde met Delahaye. Zo kwam het vers bij Delahaye terecht.


http://www.nifterlac...php?3,5088,5100

English:
The origin of the poem is shrouded in mystery.
There is a route that goes back to Guido Gezelle, specialst in Middle Dutch and Frisian. He had the verse in his possession.

Part of Gezelle's papers, including this verse, he bequeathed to a servant and protégé, Emiel van Biervliet (a remarkable figure). The inventory of Van Biervliet was lost in a fire. But ...

A pupil of Van Biervliet, one Marcel van de Velde was allowed to rummage around in those papers. Apparently the poem drew his special attention because he copied it. Thus the verse was saved.

Van de Velde knew and corresponded with a professor. G. van Oosterhout who in his turn corresponded with Delahaye. And thus the verse ended up with Delahaye.

[Abramelin]

Who was this Guido Gezelle?


Guido Pieter Theodorus Josephus Gezelle (1 May 1830 – 27 November 1899) was an influential Flemish language writer and poet and a Roman Catholic priest from Belgium.

He was born in Bruges in the province of West Flanders, where he also spent most of his life. He was ordained a priest in 1854, and worked as a teacher and priest in Roeselare. He was always interested in all things in English and was given the prestigious right of being the priest for the 'English Convent' in Bruges. He died there in a small room, where it is still forbidden to enter.

He was the son of Monica Devrieze and Pieter Jan Gezelle, a Flemish gardener in Bruges. Gezelle was the uncle of Flemish writer Stijn Streuvels (Frank Lateur).

He tried to develop an independent Flemish language, more or less separated from the general Dutch language, which had certain more "Hollandic" aspects. The Dutch he used in his poems was heavily influenced by the local West Flemish dialect.

http://en.wikipedia....i/Guido_Gezelle

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 29 November 2012 - 12:51 PM, said:

Now who would read such a chronicle.... a German perhaps? Like Ernst Stadermann, the friend and neighbour of Cornelis Over de Linden?

What are you suggesting?
Even without the OLB, THJUTA is oldfrisian for duiden/ deuten.

M. Philippa e.a. (2003-2009) Etymologisch Woordenboek van het Nederlands:

duiden ww. ‘uitleggen, vertalen; betekenen’
...
ofri. bi-thiuda ‘verklaren’ (nfri. tsjutte);
oe. ge-ðiodan ‘vertalen’;
on. þýða ‘uitleggen, betekenen’ (nzw. tyda ‘duiden’);
< pgm. *þeuþjan- ‘begrijpelijk maken’, bij pgm. *þeuþa- ‘goed’ (EWgP 621-23).

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 29 November 2012 - 04:13 PM, said:

What are you suggesting?
Even without the OLB, THJUTA is oldfrisian for duiden/ deuten.

M. Philippa e.a. (2003-2009) Etymologisch Woordenboek van het Nederlands:

duiden ww. ‘uitleggen, vertalen; betekenen’
...
ofri. bi-thiuda ‘verklaren’ (nfri. tsjutte);
oe. ge-ðiodan ‘vertalen’;
on. þýða ‘uitleggen, betekenen’ (nzw. tyda ‘duiden’);
< pgm. *þeuþjan- ‘begrijpelijk maken’, bij pgm. *þeuþa- ‘goed’ (EWgP 621-23).

As you can read in that post about the Bavarian Chronicle/ Tuitsch (and then click the links to old posts about that topic), Tuitsch was not only the first Germanic king after the Flood or gave the Teutonics their name,  but he was also the inventor of writing.

Same as Thoth one could say, but as those Bavarian Chronicles are filled with the most fantastic claims about history (much like the OLB but with different names), I expect Aventinus to have known about Thoth being the inventor of the Egyptian hieroglyphs and changed Tacitus' Tuisto/Tuisco into a Germanic Thoth.

Doesn't this sound very familiar:

In his Chronik, Aventinus fabricated a succession of Teutonic kings stretching back to the Great Flood, ruling over vast swathes of Germany and surrounding regions until the 1st century BC, and involving themselves in numerous events from Biblical and Classical history.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 29 November 2012 - 05:08 PM.

[Abramelin]

Back to the Phoenicians, my favorites from history, along with the Vikings, or any ancient people sailing the seas.

This is what I posted some minutes ago in another subforum of this site:

http://www.unexplain...0

Abramelin, on 29 November 2012 - 07:11 PM, said:

"Hell" is indeed an actual place, and it was the original name of the North Sea.

"Hell" or the (later?) Hades was the Underworld, a 'hidden place', land hidden in mists, place of the dead, drowned land,  a suitable name for the North Sea, a sea that has killed millions from the time it came into existence (around 6150 BCE).

There are still many names in Germany, the Netherlands and Belgium that have the name 'Hel-' as the first part of their full name.

There are also socalled "Hellwegs", literally, "Roads to Hell", all ancient and all leading to the North Sea.

Much later this ancient name for the North Sea was adopted by the Christians instead of the original Hebrew name "Sheol" :

She'ol ( /ˈʃiːoʊl/ SHEE-ohl or /ˈʃiːəl/ SHEE-əl; Hebrew שְׁאוֹל Šʾôl), translated as "grave", "pit", or "abode of the dead", is the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible's underworld, a place of darkness to which all the dead go, both the righteous and the unrighteous, regardless of the moral choices made in life, a place of stillness and darkness cut off from God.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol

Abramelin, on 29 November 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

I have a bit more...

The Phoenicians, and their Hebrew kin who often traveled along with them, most probably not only visited Cornwall to trade/mine tin, but also sailed up into the North Sea.

They would have had no knowledge or experience of mudflats and may have shipwrecked often on them.

Now what could they have called those mudflats?  "She'ol" maybe? Later to become "shoal" (and many similar names in the Germanic languages around the North Sea)?

And from "She'ol" to "shoal" to "hell"?

This is not just some folk etymology; there is a German linguist, Theo Vennemann,  who is convinced the Phoenicians had a big influence on these Germanic languages.

Plus the fact that there is now some evidence the Minoans did visit the German Bight and southern Scandinavia between 1700 an 1100 BCE (inscriptions and artifacts), and all this doesn't sound that farfetched anymore.


+++

EDIT:

From modern times:

Dogger Bank, North Sea. Also known as the cemetery.

http://www.shipwreck....com/index5.htm

.

Add to that one of the several possible etymologies of the name of the Dutch sea goddess "Nehalennia" - 'guide of ships', or 'nahal annia' in Semitic -  and I am getting more and more convinced the creators of the OLB did not like this one bit, and wanted to turn things around a 180 degrees, and claim it were the ancient Frisians who influenced the languages of people living in the ancient Mediterreanean.

Well, that could be true of course, but proof is in the pudding, and up to now there is no proof of ancient Frisians/Nordics visiting Greece, Crete, Lebanon, Egypt, India, and so on.

[Otharus]

Otharus, on 29 November 2012 - 11:53 AM, said:

... Theuth remarks on his discovery of writing ...
Future generations will hear much without being properly taught,
and will appear wise but not be so,
making them difficult to get along with.

LOL

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 29 November 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

Nice, but Emiel may have made it, inspired by the OLB?

If Guido Gezelle is really the one who wrote that poem I translated into English, then it is possible he was inspired by the OLB because he knew Johan Winkler:

http://fy.wikipedia....i/Johan_Winkler

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 30 November 2012 - 07:43 AM, said:

If Guido Gezelle is really the one who wrote that poem I translated into English, then it is possible he was inspired by the OLB because he knew Johan Winkler

Gezelle lived from 1830-1899.
He was 42 when Ottema published the OLB and had 27 years to read it.
Winkler hated the OLB.

Edited by Otharus, 30 November 2012 - 08:28 AM.

[NO-ID-EA]

Abramelin, on 29 November 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

http://www.marktplaa...r-oud-1940.html



Uit zijn in 1940 verschenen Onze Huis- en Grafteekens bleek trouwens al dat hij het OLB als een historische bron beschouwde.

His "Our House and Grave Symbols" from 1940 already proved that he considered the OLB to be a historical source.

http://www.skepsis.nl/oeralinda.html

++++


EDIT:

And although it contains 119 pages, people still call it a 'booklet' (DU: 'boekje'):

http://www.dordt.net...027overwijn.cfm

.
.

Here is where my British lazyness in learning other languages is such a drawback , i would love to be able to read that book ,

so onze is "our" , and not french 11 , there are 11 signs shown complete , and others partly covered ,or slightly off the page ,

why the letters BB on the swastika , and GB on the sign to its right, ?  the bad boys , and the good boys far too simple ,

i can only read a few words but the 1st world war was just a massive land and resources grab (other countries resources) disguised under the word alliance and treaty, by the Aristocracy of Europe, most of whom were already related by intermarriage.

i dont suppose overwijn's book has been translated anywhere on line has it ??

http://www.firstworl...igins/index.htm

Edited by NO-ID-EA, 30 November 2012 - 09:50 AM.

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 30 November 2012 - 08:22 AM, said:

Gezelle lived from 1830-1899.
He was 42 when Ottema published the OLB and had 27 years to read it.
Winkler hated the OLB.

Yes, I know what Winkler thought of the OLB, but that doesn't mean Gezelle should have felt the same about it.

So he could have learned about he OLB via Winkler, and used it for one of his poems. Well, only the names Wralda and Od because the rest of the poem has not much connection with the OLB.

[Abramelin]

NO-ID-EA, on 30 November 2012 - 09:48 AM, said:

Here is where my British lazyness in learning other languages is such a drawback , i would love to be able to read that book ,

so onze is "our" , and not french 11 , there are 11 signs shown complete , and others partly covered ,or slightly off the page ,

why the letters BB on the swastika , and GB on the sign to its right, ?  the bad boys , and the good boys far too simple ,

i can only read a few words but the 1st world war was just a massive land and resources grab (other countries resources) disguised under the word alliance and treaty, by the Aristocracy of Europe, most of whom were already related by intermarriage.

i dont suppose overwijn's book has been translated anywhere on line has it ??

http://www.firstworl...igins/index.htm

I can't help you with the meaning of BB and GB because I haven't read that book, and it's also not online.

And as far as I know none of Overwijn's books has been translated.


============



About learning Germanic languages, maybe there is hope....



Folkspraak is a conlang being designed as a common Germanic language (an "Intergerman", if you will). Once complete, Folkspraak should be quickly learnable by any native speaker of a Germanic language, a group numbering over 465 million native speakers (with an additional 300 to 900 million speaking English as a second language). After many individual different Folksprak varieties for over a decade, since the end of 2010 there is a kind of Standard Folksprak, members agree about. Until now there are already English to Folksprak and Folksprak to English dictionaries available. Folkspraak is not meant to be designed by any one individual, but is a collective work created by all interested parties, according to the charter guidelines. You can contribute a word to the language just by sending an e-mail listing your proposed word, its meaning and its form in three other Germanic languages (in addition to English). You can provide feedback and help design the language as well. For more information, see Conlang Profiles at Langmaker.com.

http://tech.groups.y...oup/folkspraak/


En Grammatik for Folkspraak

This is the Digisk Grammatik von Folkspraak, my attempt to write a grammar for
Folkspraak. That language aims to be a language that most speakers of other Germanic
languages can read, without learning the language. In this way you can write
something in the language, reaching a large group of potential readers.
A problem under which the language suffered, was that it did not have a complete
grammar. It had a simple draft grammar, which was by no means complete or even
accurate. That is the reason why I chose to start all over again and write a new grammar.
This is what has become of it until now.

http://www.irespa.eu...raak_151109.pdf


Grammar:
http://en.wikibooks....lksprak/Grammar


Folkspraak (FS) is an International Auxiliary Language that is currently in development. It is intended to serve as a lingua-franca for communication with speakers of Germanic languages and it is based on features common to the major modern Germanic languages.

The project is intended to be a co-operative and democratic effort by a group of people who currently meet on a Yahoo group. The project to develop Folkspraak has yet to be completed and it is beset with disagreements over such features as phonology, orthography, vocabulary, grammar and syntax. The failure to reach agreement means that there is currently no "official" form of Folkspraak and there are a number of "dialects", which are individual group members´ versions of how they think the language should be.

The primary source languages used for the development of Folkspraak are English, Dutch, German, Danish, Norwegian Bokmål and Swedish - though some members refer to further languages, such as Frisian, Low German and Norwegian Nynorsk. The divergence of the source languages means it has frequently proven harder than first anticipated to find elements sufficient to operate the language that are truly common to a majority of the source languages.

The Folkspraak described below is the "dialect" of Folkspraak Yahoo member David Parke.


Sample text in Folkspraak

All mensklik wesings âre boren frî on' gelîk in werdigheid on' rejte. Ðê âre begifted mid ferstand on' gewitt on' skulde behandele êlkên in en gêst av brôderhêd.

Translation

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
(Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights)

http://www.omniglot..../folkspraak.htm

Links
http://tech.groups.y...lkspraak/links/

Numbers:
http://en.wikibooks....lksprak/Numbers