Was Christ a Yogi?

[Shabd Mystic]

Was Christ a Yogi?

This is a chapter from a book on yoga (note to moderators: it is copyright free). I thought some people might be interested in what it says, while others will just be interested in ridiculing it.

Either way, it should be of interest to some so I figured I'd post it. (If I was a gambling man I'd bet the ones interested in ridiculing it most likely won't even bother reading it, lol, Or, at least, will only read a few lines of it.)

From the book "How To Be A Yogi" by Swâmi Abhedânanda

IN considering whether or not Christ was a Yogi we should first understand how spiritual and how divine one must be before he can be called a Yogi. A true Yogi must be pure, chaste, spotless, self-sacrificing, and the absolute master of himself. Humility, unostentatiousness, forgiveness, uprightness, and firmness of purpose must adorn his character. A true Yogi's mind should not be attached to sense-objects or sense-pleasures. He should be free from egotism, pride, vanity, and earthly ambition. Seeing the ephemeral nature of the phenomenal world, and reflecting upon the misery, suffering, sorrow, and disease with which our earthly existence is beset, he should renounce his attachment to external things, which produce but fleeting sensations of pleasure, and should overcome all that clinging to worldly life which is so strong in ordinary mortals.

A true Yogi does not feel happy when he is in the company of worldly-minded people who live on the sense plane like animals. He is not bound by family ties. He does not claim that this is his wife and these are his children; but, on the contrary, having realized that each individual soul, being a child of Immortal Bliss, belongs to the Divine Family, he severs all family relations and worldly connections and thus becomes absolutely free. A true Yogi must always preserve his equanimity in the face of the unpleasant as well as of the pleasant experiences of life; and rising above good and evil he should remain undisturbed by the success or failure, the victory or defeat, which may come to him as the result of the actions of his body and mind.

A true Yogi, again, must have unswerving devotion to the Supreme Spirit, the Almighty and Omniscient Soul of our souls; and realizing that his body and mind are the playground of the omnipotent Cosmic will, be should resign his individual will to the universal, and should be ever ready to work for others, to live for others, and to die for others. All his works, so long as he is in the society of people, should be a free offering to the world for the good of humanity; but at other times he should resort to secluded places and live alone, constantly applying his mind to the highest spiritual wisdom that can be obtained in the state of superconsciousness, through meditation on the oneness of the individual soul with God, the Universal Spirit.

A true Yogi must see the same Divinity dwelling in all living creatures. He should also love all human beings equally. He should have neither friend nor foe in the ordinary sense of those terms. A true Yogi is illumined by the light of Divine Wisdom, therefore nothing remains unknown to him. Time and space cannot limit the knowledge and wisdom of a true Yogi. Past and future events will appear to him like things happening before his eyes. For him the light of divine wisdom has dispelled the darkness of ignorance, which prevents one from realizing the true nature of the soul, and which makes one selfish, wicked, and sinful. All psychic and spiritual powers serve him as their real master. Whatever he says is sure to come to pass. He never utters a word in vain. If he says to a distressed or suffering person, "Be thou whole," instantly that person will become whole.

The powers of a true Yogi are unlimited, there is nothing in the world that he cannot do. Indeed, he alone has free access to the storehouse of infinite powers; but he never draws therefrom any force merely to satisfy idle curiosity, or to gratify selfish motives, or to gain wealth and fame, or to get any return whatsoever. He does not seek worldly prosperity, and always remains unconcerned about the result of his works. Praise or censure does not disturb the peace of his mind. Angels or bright spirits and the spirits of ancestors rejoice in his company and adore him. A true Yogi is worshipped by all. Having neither home nor possessions of his own, he wanders from place to place, realizing that the canopy of heaven is the roof of his world-wide home. He is easily pleased by everybody irrespective of his caste, creed, or nationality, and with a loving heart he blesses those who rebuke or curse him. If his body be tortured or cut in pieces, he takes no revenge, but, on the contrary, prays for the welfare of his persecutor. Such is the character of a true Yogi.

From ancient times there have been many such true Yogis in India and other countries. The descriptions of their lives and deeds are furthermore as wonderful and as authentic as the life and acts of that illustrious Son of Man who preached in Galilee nearly two thousand years ago. The powers and works of this meek, gentle, and self-sacrificing Divine man, who is worshipped throughout Christendom as the ideal Incarnation of God and the Saviour of mankind, have proved that he was a perfect type of one who is called in India a true Yogi. Jesus the Christ has been recognized by his disciples and followers not only as an exceptionally unique character but as the only-begotten Son of God; and it is quite natural for those who know nothing about the lives and deeds of similar ideal characters of great Yogis and Incarnations of God who have flourished at different times both before and after the Christian era, to believe that no one ever reached such spiritual heights or attained to such realization of oneness with the Heavenly Father as did Jesus of Nazareth.

The greater portion of the life of Jesus is absolutely unknown to us; and as He did not leave behind Him any systematic teaching regarding the method by which one may attain to that state of God-consciousness which He Himself reached, there is no way of finding out what He did or practiced during the eighteen years that elapsed before His appearance in public. It is, therefore, extremely difficult to form a clear conception of what path He adopted. But we can imagine that, being born with unusually developed spiritual inclinations, He must have devoted his life and time to such practices as led Him to the realization of absolute Truth and to the attainment of divine consciousness, which ultimately gave Him a place among the greatest spiritual leaders of the world as well as among the disinterested Saviours of mankind.

India is the only country where not only a complete system of practices is to be found, but also a perfect method, by following which well-qualified aspirants can attain to Christhood or to that spiritual unfoldment and divine enlightenment which made Jesus of Nazareth stand before the world as the ideal type of spiritual perfection. By studying the lives, the acts, and the most systematic and scientific teachings of the great Yogis of India, and by faithfully following their example and precepts, an earnest disciple can, through the Yoga practices given in the various branches of the Vedânta philosophy, hope some day to become as perfect as the Son of Man. This assurance must be a comfort and a consolation to the soul that is struggling for the attainment of spiritual perfection in this life. One peculiarity, however, of the teachings of the great Yogis of India is that the acquirement of spiritual perfection is the goal for all, and that each individual soul is bound, sooner or later, to be perfect even as Christ was perfect. They claim that spiritual truths and spiritual laws are as universal as the truths and laws of the material world, and that the realization of these truths cannot be confined to any particular time, place, or personality. Consequently by studying the Science of Yoga anyone can easily understand the higher laws and principles, an application of which will explain the mysteries connected with the lives and deeds of saints, sages, or Incarnations of God, like Krishna, Buddha, or Christ.

A genuine seeker after Truth does not limit his study to one particular example, but looks for similar events in the lives of all the great ones, and does not draw any conclusion until he has discovered the universal law which governs them all. For instance, Jesus the Christ said, "I and my Father are one." Did He alone say it, or did many others who lived before and after Him and who knew nothing of His sayings, utter similar expressions? Krishna declared, "I am the Lord of the universe." Buddha said, "I am the Absolute Truth." A Mahometan Sufi says, "I am He"; while every true Yogi declares, "I am Brahman." So long as we do not understand the principle that underlies such sayings, they seem mysterious to us and we cannot grasp their real meaning; but when we have realized the true nature of the individual soul, and its relation to the universal Spirit, or God, or Father in Heaven, or the Absolute Truth, we have learned the principle and there is no further mystery about it. We are then sure that whosoever reaches this state of spiritual oneness or God-consciousness will express the same thought in a similar manner. Therefore if we wish to understand the character and miraculous deeds of Jesus of Nazareth, the surest way open to us is the study of the Science of Yoga and the practice of its methods.

This Science of Yoga, as has already been stated, explains all mysteries, reveals the causes of all miracles, and describes the laws which govern them. It helps us to unravel the secrets of nature and to discover the origin of such phenomena as are called miraculous. All miracles like "walking on the sea," "feeding a multitude with a small quantity of food," "raising the dead," which we read of in the life of Jesus, are described by the Yogis as manifestations of the powers that are acquired through long practice of Yoga. These powers are not supernatural; on the contrary, they are in nature, are governed by natural though higher laws, and are therefore universal. When these laws are understood, that which is ordinarily called miraculous by ignorant people, appears to be the natural result of finer forces working on a higher plane. There is no such thing as the absolutely supernatural. If a person's conception of nature be very limited, that which exists beyond that limit will seem to him supernatural, while to another, whose idea of nature is broader, the same thing will appear perfectly natural; therefore that miracle, or that particular act which is classed as a miracle by a Christian, can be explained by a Yogi as the result of higher or finer forces of nature. Why? Because his conception of nature is much wider than that of an ordinary man. We must not forget that nature is infinite, and that there are circles within circles, grades beyond grades, planes after planes, arranged in infinite succession; and the desire of a Yogi is to learn all the laws which govern these various planes, and to study every manifestation of force, whether fine or gross. His mind is not satisfied with the knowledge of one particular plane of existence; his aim is to comprehend the whole of nature.

Those who have read the gospel of Buddha, by Paul Carus, will remember that, five hundred years before the birth of Jesus the Christ, Shâriputra, Buddha's illustrious disciple, walked on the surface of the water across a mighty river named Shrâvasti. A similar account of crossing a wide river by walking on the water, we find in the life of Padmapâda, the disciple of Sankarâchârya, the best exponent of the Vedânta philosophy, who lived about 600 A.D. Krishna, the Hindu Christ, whose other name is Lord of the Yogis, raised the dead nearly fourteen hundred years before the advent of Christ. The transfiguration of Krishna is likewise most beautifully described in the tenth and eleventh chapters of the "Song Celestial," and, like Christ, he also fed a vast multitude of people with a small quantity of food. There are other instances of similar powers shown by great Yogis who came later; and these accounts are in every way as historical and as authentic as those of Jesus the Christ. Thus we see that all the miracles performed by Jesus are to be found as well in the lives of Hindu Yogis, who lived both before and after Him.

So long as an event is isolated it appears supernatural and miraculous; but if we see the same thing happening elsewhere under similar conditions, it assumes the aspect of a natural occurrence governed by natural law, and then comes a proper solution of the mystery as well as the rational explanation of that which was called a miracle. It is in this that the Science of Yoga renders especial service to the world, for more than any science it helps to reveal the secrets of nature and to explain the causes of all miraculous deeds.

A true Yogi goes to the source of all power and of all forces, studies the laws behind them, and learns the method of controlling them. He knows that the various forces of nature are but expressions of one universal, living, intelligent energy, which is called in Sanskrit "Prâna." He sees that all the forces of physical nature, like heat, gravitation, electricity, as also all mental forces such as mind, intellect, thought, are nothing but the manifestations of that one living self-existent force, "Prâna." This intelligent energy projects from its bosom innumerable suns, moons, stars, and planets into physical space. It has hurled this earth from the molten furnace of the sun, it has cooled it, bathed it in air and water, and clothed it with vegetable and animal life; it wings the atmosphere with clouds and spans the planes with rivers, it takes a fine minute substance and transforms it into something huge and gross; it moves the body, gives life and motion to every atom and molecule, and at the same time manifests itself as thought and intellect.

Why should it be impossible for one who has realized his oneness with this fountain-head of all power, who has learned the method of controlling all phenomena by comprehending the laws which govern them, and who has become the master of the world as was Jesus the Christ, to perform simple phenomena like walking on the sea, turning water into wine, or raising the dead? According to a true Yogi these acts of Jesus the Christ were only a few expressions of the Yoga powers which have been exercised over and over again by the Yogis in India. Thus we understand that Christ was one of these great Yogis born in a Semitic family.

Jesus was a great Yogi because He realized the transitory and ephemeral nature of the phenomenal world, and, discriminating the real from the unreal, renounced all desire for worldly pleasures and bodily comforts. Like a great Yogi He lived a life of seclusion, cutting off all connections with earthly friends and relatives, and having neither home nor possessions of His own.

Jesus the Christ was a great Karma Yogi, because He never worked for results; He had neither desire for name nor ambition for fame or for earthly prosperity. His works were a free offering to the world. He labored for others, devoted His whole life to help others, and in the end died for others. Being unattached to the fruits of His actions, He worked incessantly for the good of His fellow-men, directing them to the path of righteousness and spiritual realization through unselfish works. He understood the law of action and reaction, which is the fundamental principle of Karma Yoga, and it was for this reason that He declared, "Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."

Jesus of Nazareth proved Himself to be a great Bhakti Yogi, a true lover of God, by His unswerving devotion and His whole-hearted love for the Heavenly Father. His unceasing prayers, incessant supplications, constant meditation, and unflinching self-resignation to the will of the Almighty made Him shine like a glorious morning-star in the horizon of love and devotion of a true Bhakti Yogi. Christ showed wonderful self-control and mastery over His mind throughout the trials and sufferings which were forced upon Him. His sorrow, agony, and self-surrender at the time of His death as well as before His crucifixion, are conclusive proofs that He was a human being with those divine qualities which adorn the soul of a true Bhakti Yogi. It is true that His soul labored for a while under the heavy burden of His trials and sufferings; it is also true that He felt that His pain was becoming wellnigh unbearable when He cried aloud three times, praying to the Lord, "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me."

But He found neither peace nor consolation until He could absolutely resign His will to that of the Father and could say from the bottom of His heart, "Thy will be done." Complete self-surrender and absolute self-resignation are the principal virtues of Bhakti Yoga, and as Christ possessed these to perfection up to the last moment of His life, He was a true Bhakti Yogi.

Like the great Râja Yogis in India, Jesus knew the secret of separating His soul from His physical shell, and He showed this at the time of His death, while His body was suffering from extreme pain, by saying, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." It is quite an unusual event to see one imploring forgiveness for his persecutors while dying on the cross, but from a Yogi's point of view it is both possible and natural. Râmakrishna, the greatest Yogi of the nineteenth century, whose life and sayings have been written by Max Müller, was once asked, "How could Jesus pray for His persecutors when He was in agony on the cross?" Râmakrishna answered by an illustration: "When the shell of an ordinary green coconut is pierced through, the nail enters the kernel of the nut too. But in the case of the dry nut the kernel becomes separate from the shell, and so when the shell is pierced, the kernel is not touched. Jesus was like the dry nut, i.e., His inner soul was separate from His physical shell, and consequently the sufferings of the body did not affect him."

Therefore He could pray for the forgiveness of His persecutors even when His body was suffering; and all true Yogis are able to do the same. There have been many instances of Yogis whose bodies have been cut into pieces, but their souls never for a moment lost that peace and equanimity which enabled Jesus to forgive and bless His persecutors. By this Christ proved that, like other Yogis, His soul was completely emancipated from the bondage of the body and of the feelings. Therefore Christ was a Yogi.

Through the path of devotion and love Jesus attained to the realization of the oneness of the individual soul with the Father or the Universal Spirit, which is the ideal of a Jnâna Yogi as well as the ultimate goal of all religions. A Jnâna Yogi says: "I am He"; "I am Brahman"; "I am the Absolute Truth"; "I am one with the Supreme Deity." By good works, by devotion, love, concentration, contemplation, long fasting, and prayer, Jesus the Christ realized that His soul was one with God, therefore He may be said to have attained the ideal of Jnâna Yoga.

Like Krishna, Buddha, and all other great Yogis of India, Jesus healed the sick, opened the eyes of the blind, made the lame walk, and read the secret thoughts of His disciples. He knew exactly what Judas and Peter were going to do; but there was nothing supernatural in any of His actions, there was nothing that cannot be done again over and over by a true Yogi, and there was nothing in His life that cannot be explained rationally by the Science of Yoga and the Philosophy of Vedânta. Without the help of this science and this philosophy Jesus the Christ cannot be fully understood and appreciated. By studying His character, on the other hand, in the light of the Vedânta Philosophy we shall be able not only to understand Him better, but to have a larger appreciation of His true glory.

Material science now scoffs at His miracles, but they are corroborated by the Science of Yoga and confirmed by the deeds of the great Yogis of India. No devout Christian need for a moment fear that physical science can ever undermine the work of Jesus so long as the Science of Yoga is there to sustain all that He did. Let him study the character of Jesus through the Philosophy of Vedânta and I am sure that he will understand Him better and be a truer Christian, a more genuine disciple of the Son of Man than ever before. Let him follow the teachings of Yoga and he will some day become perfect like Christ.

It is through the teachings of Vedânta that the Hindus have learned how to glorify the character of Jesus; so also it is through Vedânta that a Christian will learn to adore the great Yogis like Krishna, Buddha, Râmakrishna, and others. It is through Vedânta that a Christian will be able to see how Divinity dwells in all animate and inanimate objects, and thus comprehending the true relation of the individual soul to the Supreme Spirit.

.

[Guyver]

Perhaps the better question is...."Are yogi's like God?"

[Habitat]

A yogi is a mystic, Christ was a mystic, they are both similar in that respect.

[keven3]

Jesus is God incarnate. Though he was fully biologically human he was also fully God whilst on this earth, and for eternity. His mother was a spotless human and his Father is the eternal I AM.

Yogi's are humans who, though Christ-like, are not direct descendants of God. They believe that their true nature is God, but they are not God. Even if they think they are God, they are in fact just humans striving to let go of their humanness, but they are not God in that moment.

He did give up all possessions and many worldly comforts, but he did not break ties with his mother who by many accounts was one of his apostles, though not one of the twelve. He also apparently splurged a bit, eating good food and wine with sinners, for example. Even though he apparently did his penance such as starving in the desert and dying on the cross for us, he did not apparently live a life filled with suffering or detachment.

My belief for that was he was spending more time praying and preaching than worrying if he had too much fish for dinner or not.

In summary, no he was not a yogi.

Keven

[Habitat]

Jesus is God incarnate. Though he was fully biologically human he was also fully God whilst on this earth, and for eternity. His mother was a spotless human and his Father is the eternal I AM.

Yogi's are humans who, though Christ-like, are not direct descendants of God. They believe that their true nature is God, but they are not God. Even if they think they are God, they are in fact just humans striving to let go of their humanness, but they are not God in that moment.

He did give up all possessions and many worldly comforts, but he did not break ties with his mother who by many accounts was one of his apostles, though not one of the twelve. He also apparently splurged a bit, eating good food and wine with sinners, for example. Even though he apparently did his penance such as starving in the desert and dying on the cross for us, he did not apparently live a life filled with suffering or detachment.

My belief for that was he was spending more time praying and preaching than worrying if he had too much fish for dinner or not.

In summary, no he was not a yogi.

Keven

Even though he tells a crowd of people that even the least among them could do all he had done and more, we are to classify him as something we are not ? Makes no sense to me, what would be the sense of telling people to follow his example, if they were not essentially of the same stuff ? That would be like Usain Bolt telling a quadraplegic to run like him, cruel and unreasonable.

[keven3]

Even though he tells a crowd of people that even the least among them could do all he had done and more, we are to classify him as something we are not ? Makes no sense to me, what would be the sense of telling people to follow his example, if they were not essentially of the same stuff ? That would be like Usain Bolt telling a quadraplegic to run like him, cruel and unreasonable.

I hear what you are saying but one of the main concepts in Christianity is that God impregnated Mary. Jesus was a biological man whose father was GOD himself. He came here for a reason. He did not come here to become enlightened as a yogi is doing. He came here out of God's eternal compassion for his creation to ask us to all turn our attention to what God wants our attention turned to....whatever that is you can read the new testament for...

Keven

[ambelamba]

Jews in the 1st century Palestine were very xenophobic. There's no way Jesus would have adopted reviled gentile's way.

[keven3]

Jews in the 1st century Palestine were very xenophobic. There's no way Jesus would have adopted reviled gentile's way.

What is logical is not always what is true.

Keven

[Chronii]

Even though he tells a crowd of people that even the least among them could do all he had done and more, we are to classify him as something we are not ? Makes no sense to me, what would be the sense of telling people to follow his example, if they were not essentially of the same stuff ? That would be like Usain Bolt telling a quadraplegic to run like him, cruel and unreasonable.

I'm pretty sure Christ never made the claim that he was God, the way I've heard the story he just told people how to live and to be kind. I have no idea where this idea that he was God comes from. I've always heard two sides of the story; either that he was the son of God (not God himself), or that he was just a very good man who others saw as a divine prophet because of this. In fact, didn't Jesus say when he was brought to the emperor or whoever it was who said "So you claim to be the king of the jews?"; "Those are your words" or something like that?

Note that I'm not an expert on Christianity, so I could be wrong.

Edited February 17, 2012 by Chronii

[keven3]

I'm pretty sure Christ never made the claim that he was God, the way I've heard the story he just told people how to live and to be kind. I have no idea where this idea that he was God comes from. I've always heard two sides of the story; either that he was the son of God (not God himself), or that he was just a very good man who others saw as a divine prophet because of this. In fact, didn't Jesus say when he was brought to the emperor or whoever it was who said "So you claim to be the king of the jews?"; "Those are your words" or something like that?

Note that I'm not an expert on Christianity, so I could be wrong.

http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/book-of-john.htm

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (John 1:1). And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,

[Habitat]

The relatively short period of Christ's "ministry" following his emergence from obscurity as a grown man, gives little credence to the idea of a pre-formed, turn-key saviour, not requiring any enlightenement experience. In his home village, he was thought to be of no particular note, suggesting the charismatic stage came only late in his short life.

[keven3]

The relatively short period of Christ's "ministry" following his emergence from obscurity as a grown man, gives little credence to the idea of a pre-formed, turn-key saviour, not requiring any enlightenement experience. In his home village, he was thought to be of no particular note, suggesting the charismatic stage came only late in his short life.

If your father is God, you are going to be enlightened at a very young age.

Keven

[Habitat]

It begs the question of why God-on-Earth would need to be plying the trade of a carpenter, does it not ? The divinity in Christ was realized, ours still requires work, but in principle it is a level playing field, open to all-comers.

[Shabd Mystic]

http://www.allaboutj...ook-of-john.htm

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (John 1:1). And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,

And the "Word" was the Biblical way of describing the exact same thing as other religions ot Paths or teachings have described as "Shabd, Holy Ghost, Tao, Logos, Music of the Spheres, Sound Current, Audible Life Stream, Living Waters, Lost Word, Voice of the Silence, Naad, Akash Bani (Heavenly utterance), Sruti, Nam, Nada, Nada Brahma, Udgit, Sraosha, Kalma, Kalam-i-Qadim, Akhand Kirtan, Sultan-ul-Azkar (King of the ways), Ism-i-Azam, Kalma, Vadan, Kalam-i-Ilahi" and many other names (which I can't recall offhand).

It is literally a specific "sound" (that is actually 5 distinct sounds that change as you go "higher") that can ONLY be heard via meditation and can ONLY begun to be heard once you have attained a certain level (and there are actually 10 different sounds heard at the very first level, 9 of which are not God). The "Sound" is often compared to earthly sounds (the Sound of the first level is described as a bell) but there is nothing on earth that begins to come close to those celestial Sounds (or the incredible effect they have on you).

That "sound" is God Himself. "He" can only manifest to humans as "Light and Sound." If He could do otherwise He wouldn't need "Sons" like Jesus to teach the way to get back Home. God Himself would just tell us how to get Home. It's the "Sound" that is the true form of God. And it's His "Sons" who come to tell us how to connect to that Sound and how to become absorbed in that Sound (just like Jesus was and so many other Yogis or Mystics or Adepts or Masters, were).

99.99% of all Christians don't have any idea what the "Word' is that the Bible refers to, just as 99.99% of Sikhs have no clue what "Nam" or "Shabd" refers to in their scriptures, and countless others don't know what their own religions are referring to in this respect. They don't know what it means because they have no idea it even exists because they have never heard it. Nor will they ever if they continue to believe their "religions" have anything to do with "getting Home" (all religions have to do with is "religion").

That "Sound" is the way "Home." That "Sound" is what all the scriptures are about. That "Sound" is the "Word" of the Bible. And the Word WAS God. And the Word IS God. And that "Word" cannot be heard any other way than by "going inside." As the Bible clearly states, THAT is where God is. He can't be accessed any other way than by "going inside" and finding Him.

Or so the Mystics whose teachings the religions were founded upon all said before the people who decided to found a religion got hold of their teachings ...

.

[Shabd Mystic]

If your father is God, you are going to be enlightened at a very young age.

He must be a second-rate God since Jesus didn't become "enlightened" until His Master, John the Baptist, "baptized" Him and the "Heavens opened up" to Him.

You'd think the "Son of God" would have been just as much His Son when He was a day old. But Christians like to believe that a "Toddler from heaven" was bouncing around but nobody even noticed. It's just a "coincidence" that Jesus wasn't noticed until He was baptized by John the Baptist.

Maybe Jesus was just clueless about His powers until then. Or maybe He was doing the same "raising the dead" sort of things for many years before then but nobody else noticed.

Of course none of this will ever have a chance of "getting through" because with Christianity all you have to do in order to get "eternity in Paradise" is to BELIEVE. Who on earth is ever going to risk such a sweet deal by questioning anything they are told? It's history's greatest multilevel marketing scheme!

Forget all those Biblical inconsistencies. Forget all those things that don't make sense. Forget the fact that you have to wait until you are dead to find out whether anything you chose to believe is true. That was "God's" way. What sort of God would He be to have anything that makes perfect sense and that you can actually VERIFY is true before you die? I'm too busy trying to make money to bother with all that.

Give me that "believe" deal! Who wants to have to do any sort of "work" in order to get to heaven? What sort of God would ever expect anything like that?

.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

judging by the Loaves and Fishes incident, he was always very fond of pick-a-nick baskets.

My coat? Is it's rather fine isn't it?

[Shabd Mystic]

http://www.allaboutj...ook-of-john.htm

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (John 1:1). And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,

Not that any Christian is ever going to read this, let alone believe it, but I hope there will be others who might care about trying to separate "facts" from "beliefs," so I figured I'd post this. It's from "Path of the Masters" by Dr. Julian P. Johnson.

This explains what the "Word" referred to in the Bible actually is. (And like my earlier post it is also copyright free.)

Dr. Julian P. Johnson - The Audible Stream; The Source Of All Being

THE CENTRAL FACT IN SANTON KI SHIKSHATHE

Audible Life Stream is the cardinal, central fact in the Science of the Masters. It is the keystone of the arch. It is the cornerstone of the structure. It is the structure itself. And it is the Path of the Masters. One might say that the Master and the Life Stream constitute the Path of the Masters. The great spiritual Current is not only the central fact in the Science of the Masters but it is the supreme fact and factor of the entire universe. It is the very essence and life of all things. It is perhaps less known than any other important fact of Nature, yet it is the one determining factor of all Nature. That is indeed a pity.

This great truth or fact is significantly spoken of in the first chapter of the Gospel of John: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. All things were made by him and without him was not anything made that was made." Here it is definitely stated that something which is called "Word" is identical with God, the Creator. Although not at all understood by the Christian church, this statement is an important announcement of the stupendous fact of the Audible Life Stream. It is often called the Sound Current. But that is not a good name for it because it is not sufficiently definitive. The Indian name is simple shabd, meaning sound. But that is not definitely clear.

There are many sounds. Logos was the Greek term used by the Neoplatonic school, whose masters were familiar with portions of the Eastern Wisdom. Logos means the divine Word. It is this divine current, wave or stream going forth from God himself and flowing throughout the universe. It is not only an emanation from God but it is God himself. When any man speaks in this world, he simply sets in motion atmospheric vibrations. But when God speaks, he not only sets in motion etheric vibrations but he himself moves in and through those vibrations. In truth it is God himself that vibrates all through infinite space. God is not static, latent: He is superlatively dynamic. When he speaks, everything in existence vibrates, and that is the Sound, the Shabd; and it can be heard by the inner ear, which has been trained to hear it.

It is the divine energy in process of manifestation which is the holy Shabd. It is in fact the only way in which the Supreme One can be seen and heard-this mighty, luminous and musical wave, creating and enchanting. Now, this great fact of Nature, so little known to either ancient or modern thought, is the vital substance of the Science of the Masters. It is cardinal and central in all their teachings. It is the one thing which distinguishes Santon ki Shiksha from all other sciences or systems.

It is the very foundation of their system of yoga. It is the key to all of their success in unfolding their spiritual powers and controlling their minds. It is the one sign by which a real Master may be known and recognized from all others. No one is or can be a genuine Master unless he teaches and practices the Audible Life Stream; because it is impossible for anyone to become a spiritual Master of the highest order unless he consciously utilizes the Life Stream to gain his development.

NAMES OF THE SUPREME LOGOS.

It is commonly called Sound Current in India, among those who speak English. But the best translation which we have been able to discover is: Audible Life Stream. This appears to carry its deeper meaning and is more comprehensive and inclusive. It is, in fact, a stream, a life-giving, creative stream and it can be heard. The fact that it is audible is extremely important and that idea must be conveyed, if possible, in any name that is applied to it. This current or wave contains the sum of all teaching emanating from God. It is his own Word. It includes everything that God has ever said or done. It is God himself in expression. It is the method of God in making himself known. It is his language. It is his Word.

This Sound sometimes is called Name; in Sanskrit or Hindi, NAM. But in English, we are not accustomed to put so much meaning in the word 'name'. It is only correct if we understand that 'name' or Nam stands for all that the Supreme Being is. It is just another way of saying Word and Word is what God says. It is equally what he does. It is the whole of the divine being in action. To distinguish God in action from God as divine Essence, we call him Shabd or living Word. The name of anything or anybody is the sound symbol which stands for the reality itself. The name conveys to thought everything which belongs to the reality for which it stands. When the Master is said to give "NAM" it means that he gives the Current, the Reality for which Nam stands. He literally gives the Audible Life Stream itself. (Just how the Master can give it is discussed in "Path of the Masters" Chapter XII: 4).

This divine NAM, or Sound, or Word, stands for all that God is or has ever said or done. It includes all of his qualities. As said before, it is the only way in which the universal Spirit can manifest itself to human consciousness. So when the Supreme Being manifests himself as Sat Nam in Sach Khand he there becomes fully personified, embodied, and brings into manifestation all of the qualities of deity. As Sat Nam he becomes personal Creator, Lord, God, and Father. There he becomes the Fountain out of which the Audible Life Stream proceeds. This stream may be perceived and heard by all who participate in it throughout all worlds. It may be seen and heard by such as attain an awakened consciousness under the training of a Master. When a man hears it, he hears God. When he feels it, he feels the power of God. This Shabd is, therefore, the Divine Being expressing himself in something that is both audible and visible. This current must not be understood to be like a river running in one course. It is more like a radio wave flowing out in every direction from the grand central broadcasting station. In fact, it comes from the Supreme Creative center of the universe of universes.

This wave has two aspects, a centrifugal flow and a centripetal flow. It moves outward from the central dynamo of all creation, and it flows back toward that dynamo. Moving upon that current, all power and all life appear to flow outward to the uttermost bounds of creation, and again upon it all life appears to be returning toward its source. It is the latter aspect of it with which we have to deal mostly.

Upon that wave we have to depend for our return to our original home. When the Master makes the connection or as we say in radio, "tunes us in," it is then that we begin our homeward journey leaving all perishable worlds behind us.

This Word is called Nada (pronounced Nad) in the Vedas. In Vedanta, sound is always spoken of as creative. Sound or anything that sounds is the creative energy. It is referred to as the Nada Brahma meaning the primal word of Brahm. By this Nada Brahma all creation was brought into existence. The whole of the visible and invisible universe is the manifestation of this primal Nada. The Nada is the Grand symphony out of which all other symphonies flow. It is the primal music of the universe. Every musical cord of this world is an echo of that primal cord. It is the Vadan of the Sufis, and the Shabd of the Hindus. But all Sufis do not distinguish between the primal Word and the manifest word, between the original music and its echo. They are not able to point out the difference between the dhunyatmak sound and the many varnatmak sounds. While we may truly say that all music in the world is a manifestation of the original symphony of the primal Vadan, yet there is a difference between them, a very important difference. The all-creative Nada is the sound out of which all other sounds arise, while at the same time its heavenly strains linger in all material worlds as echoes of the original melody. It is only these echoes that we hear when we listen to a great orchestra produced by man. Those who love music should remember that they are listening to the distant echoes of the infinite chorus of the universe every time they hear a musical sound upon this plane. But we should always take care to distinguish between the echo and the original. The original cannot, however, be heard by the physical organ of hearing. A finer sense must be developed for that.

This Nada is Shabd in Hindi. It is spoken of as the Shabd Dhun, the melodious sound. Again it is called Akash Bani (Heavenly utterance). Kabir Sahib speaks of it so beautifully as the "pure white music." All Muslim Saints generally refer to it as Sultan-ul-Azkar—King of the ways—or Ism-i-Azam, and Kalma or Kalam-i-Ilahi. It is also called Surat Shabd Toga or Anand Yoga or Anahad Shabd, and Anahad Toga. So it has been called by many names in many languages. It is "The still small voice" and the "Voice of the Silence". It is the same divine sound wave no matter by what name it may be known. Let no one say it is not a sound, because it cannot be heard by the physical ear. The radio electromagnetic waves cannot be heard by the physical ear until they are converted into atmospheric vibrations by the receiving instrument; yet when they are traveling through space they are just as truly sounds. The Shabd is in any case a sound because it can be heard by a finer ear attuned to its higher vibrations.

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Edited February 17, 2012 by Shabd Mystic

[Shabd Mystic]

In case it matters to anyone, the "Dr. Johnson" I quoted above was a doctor and a Baptist minister ...

[ambelamba]

Sometimes I wonder if the Jesus of Bible is actually a composite of several different people.

[karmakazi]

Ron - I was just reading yesterday that there was a council of bible scholars who voted on each saying of Jesus, and determined that about 80% of what he said in the Gospels (including the Gospel of Thomas) was likely made up by the authors.

As to the subject of Jesus as the incarnation of God...

Jesus never said those words, he called himself the Son of Man, and repeatedly told people NOT to worship him but to worship the Father. He said it was his words, that were important, as they came from the Father directly but that he, himself, the man, should not be worshipped. He tried repeatedly to teach us that the kingdom of God is within us and that we must cause it to grow, not unlike the Hindu ideas of Kundalini and chakras, and the Buddhist ideas of meditation and enlightenment. Jesus said we could only come to the kingdom through him, through his words, because the words of nearly everyone else are misleading.

I don't think Christianity is at all what Jesus was trying to start. When Christianity was developing a lot of ideas were added that were not originally there. Some speculate that the virgin birth is one of them.

[J. K.]

"A true Yogi must see the same Divinity dwelling in all living creatures."

That statement alone would disqualify Jesus as a yogi. He would deny that divinity is in all living creatures.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

"A true Yogi must see the same Divinity dwelling in all living creatures."

That statement alone would disqualify Jesus as a yogi. He would deny that divinity is in all living creatures.

How so?

[J. K.]

How so?

In belief system of Christianity, the "divine" is only present, in the form of the Holy Spirit, in those who follow Jesus. Those who are not followers are spiritually dead.

[Habitat]

In belief system of Christianity, the "divine" is only present, in the form of the Holy Spirit, in those who follow Jesus. Those who are not followers are spiritually dead.

How do you interpret "follow" ?

[J. K.]

How do you interpret "follow" ?

Submit your will to Jesus by accepting His lordship over your life, allowing Him to regenerate your dead spirit through the power of the Holy Spirit, and dedicate your life to obey His teachings as a disciple.