cladking Posted November 4, 2011 #1 Share Posted November 4, 2011 At last someone has come up with a good idea about great pyramids. http://www.youtube.com/user/patrickgiles22 This is superbly evidenced and can even explain what the units of measurements on the Palermo Stone mean. The Palermo Stone is hugely important because it con- tains most of the very very little we know about the great pyramid builders. Up till now we didn't know what these numbers were but maybe it was the total amount of water that was caught in the Lake of the Year. The Pyramid Texts said this number was calculated so perhaps they had to add up all the events and subtract out what was used for other purposes. The equations could get pretty complicated with a pyramid sitting in the middle of the lake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Englishgent Posted November 4, 2011 #2 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Interesting thoery but seems an awful lot of trouble to go to just to collect water, which was generally in plentiful supply in that area due to the annual flooding of the NIle. Also, if this was the reason for the pyramids being built, why the complex interior? In my humble opinion it just doesnt hold water (scuse the pun) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cladking Posted November 4, 2011 Author #3 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Interesting thoery but seems an awful lot of trouble to go to just to collect water, which was generally in plentiful supply in that area due to the annual flooding of the NIle. Also, if this was the reason for the pyramids being built, why the complex interior? In my humble opinion it just doesnt hold water (scuse the pun) Sure, I agree, but the fact is this theory doesn't depend on assumptions like orthodoxy and most others do. The first thing they built was always the water catchment device and then they built the pyramids. There is even water erosion described by Petrie in the canals leading away from the water catchment. So this theory is demonstrably true on some levels. Obviousaly it's illogical to build a huge pyramid in the middle of your "rain bucket" but this doesn't change the fact that they actually caught water. It doesn't change the fact that this water was so important that they named their years after the amount that was caught. Don't forget the water in the Nile was warm, muddy, and loaded with para- sites and crocodiles. The builders spoke of cool effervescent water that was violent and caused abundance and rainbows. They also even had a God of rain which harnessed the kas of the Gods who was named Nehebkau. His multitudinous coils were the clouds. There would never be rainbows in the river yet they described rainbows in detail. Rain is infrequent in this desert and probably wasn't much more common in the pyramid building age but it does come nearly every year. They probably got about 5" per year in the pyramid building age. There's also a cistern in Khentkawes Town which is directly downhill from the water catchment device surrounding G2. This cistern can not be filled by a downpour which very strongly suggests that water was retained at the pyramid and slowly released. This particular water catchment device even gets mentioned in the Pyramid Texts (how's that for proof). I'd say his theory is pure genius even if he is overlooking a few obvious facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aus Der Box Skeptisch Posted November 4, 2011 #4 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Where's the ramp? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Englishgent Posted November 4, 2011 #5 Share Posted November 4, 2011 You say ''I'd say his theory is pure genius even if he is overlooking a few obvious facts. His theory might well be pure genius, but anyone giving a theory cannot possibly overlook obvious facts as surely this would leave his theory open to question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cladking Posted November 4, 2011 Author #6 Share Posted November 4, 2011 You say ''I'd say his theory is pure genius even if he is overlooking a few obvious facts. His theory might well be pure genius, but anyone giving a theory cannot possibly overlook obvious facts as surely this would leave his theory open to question? As I see it we're all just a bunch of blind men trying to identify an elephant. We all have different knowledge sets and unique perspectives. As a rule Egyptologists have the greatest amount of information and have done the permutations of the positions of the hairs on the tail. But somehow they've managed to get every single thing wrong. They started with a few absurd assumptions and then never went back and looked at them in light of new evidence. Ratgher than identifying an elephant they think it's a herd of mice pulling a pumpkin shaped carriage. But where Egyptologists started with something that never existed this guy is starting with something that is factual. This is real. It's concrete. It's not an assumption. This makes a sound foundation upon which to build. Ramps could and must have literally been built atop these water catchment devices if they actually existed. Of course ramps might interfere with water flow so again ramps might be ruled out. We need to chuck out the mice and carriage and get back to the data. Start construction on water catchment devices and go from there. Perhaps this is the point of the guy who came up with this. Perhaps this is a philosopi- cal statement more than a proposed usage for the pyramid. Everybody knows that building a 6 1/2 million ton obstruction in a catchment would be a lot of work. Perhaps he's even implying that the catchment might be related to the means to build the big obstruction. But whatever the actual case this is a sound foundation for the new Egyptology. This is a foundation for an egyptology striving toward answers rather than starting with answers that lead nowhere at all. The old Egyptology is stuck in a twilight zone where the sun never sets nor rises. All the Giza pyramids lie between them and the light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted November 4, 2011 #7 Share Posted November 4, 2011 It's not such a bad idea I think. Not much to say but it could also mean the pyramid was used for for than one purpose. Not only was it for shooting your soul out to Orion but it could also collect water. How about this too, because of the thought of little rain - I hear the natural covering was limestone, which usually has water dripping from it, maybe it caught the water that dripped, seeped out of the limestone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harte Posted November 4, 2011 #8 Share Posted November 4, 2011 I hear the natural covering was limestone, which usually has water dripping from it, maybe it caught the water that dripped, seeped out of the limestone. What the...?? That is even more absurd than the "water collection" idea. Harte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted November 4, 2011 #9 Share Posted November 4, 2011 What the...?? That is even more absurd than the "water collection" idea. Harte lol fair enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rusting Posted November 4, 2011 #10 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Obviousaly it's illogical to build a huge pyramid in the middle of your "rain bucket" It is illogical to build huge pyramids in the middle of anywhere just to collect water. It took thousands of workers a number of years and huge cost to build those pyramids and a civilization that was mathematically advanced enough to build such huge marvels would have been aware that it was a lot simpler and cheaper to build two cisterns and connect them rather than one pyramid and one cistern. p.s: Wasn't Egyptian calender more centered around the Nile rather than the amount of water that the pyramids caught? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cladking Posted November 4, 2011 Author #11 Share Posted November 4, 2011 What the...?? That is even more absurd than the "water collection" idea. Surely you aren't suggesting Petrie was absurd. You'd be excommunicated you know. "From this remarkable forking, it [p. 50] is evident that the trench cannot have been made with any ideas of sighting along it, or of its marking out a direction or azimuth; and, starting as it does, from the basalt pavement (or from any building which stood there), and running with a steady fall to the nearest point of the cliff edge, it seems exactly as if intended for a drain; the more so as there is plainly a good deal of water-weanng at a point where it falls sharply, at its enlargement." He went to a lot of effort to hide the most important fact about G1 in a 92 word sentence but you still aren't allowed to doubt its veracity. There was water at all the great pyramids that was collected. Even Djoser's Pyramid is surrounded by a moat. They used water to level the site and there is extensive evidence for water on site. It's thirsty work building ramps. This even applies to ramps sitting in catchment basins. My guess is they couldn't have both so they went without ramps. Ramps are an absurd idea for building pyramids anyway. Of course if you merely meant that the pyramid's function was intended solely to catch rain water coming from clouds then I'd be forced to agree it really is absurd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harte Posted November 4, 2011 #12 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Of course if you merely meant that the pyramid's function was intended solely to catch rain water coming from clouds then I'd be forced to agree it really is absurd. I can't view your vid at work. Any large construction project has to take drainage into account. I don't see anywhere in Petrie's writings on this where he implies water was to be collected by the pyramid. Obviously, in the case of rain, water would be collected in the interior (and on the pavement surrounding) the unfinished G.P. This rainwater would need to be drained to continue operations. This is what Petrie said the trenches were for. Harte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cladking Posted November 4, 2011 Author #13 Share Posted November 4, 2011 It is illogical to build huge pyramids in the middle of anywhere just to collect water. Yes and no. I tend to agree and definitely agree it's very safe to rule out building a 6 1/2 million ton pyramid that would be of no benefit in collecting rain water. There is a remote chance that the pyramid was in- tended largely as a plug on water seeping up out of the ground in order to gain control over this water but, this too is doubtful. It would make sense if pyramids could collect water but they can't. It took thousands of workers a number of years and huge cost to build those pyramids... It's not known how the pyramids were built. Depending on the methods em- ployed it might have required anywhere between 3% and 120% of GDP. The builders clearly said that the Gods built them so I tend to favor the lower estimates. (the Gods didn't supply their Own rope) This is a critical consideration. It's never even been shown that the ex- tremely labor intensive means to build coulsd actually work. There may be no way to build the entire pyramid using ramps since the ramps would have to be removed and then rebuilt to apply the cladding. The ramps would already require more effort than the pyramid and applying cladding would double this work. The evidence seems to suggest that working on the pyramid was a highly prized job that was awarded by lottery to the cities where men came from who made major ad- vancements in the past. This implies there were very few jobs on the pyramid which is supported by the fact that there are almost no graves anywhere in Egypt of pyramid builders. Gods neither drip corpse secretions nor occupy graves when they die so there's is no reason to expect big pyramid building towns or big graveyards full of builders. All the evidence fits a specific pattern which suggests the builders weren't mad and meant what they said. ...and a civilization that was mathematically advanced enough to build such huge marvels would have been aware that it was a lot simpler and cheaper to build two cisterns and connect them rather than one pyramid and one cistern. There's really no question that the argument as presented is wrong. The reason for building great pyramids was not as rain catchment. p.s: Wasn't Egyptian calender more centered around the Nile rather than the amount of water that the pyramids caught? It's a virtual certainty that the Egyptian calender was centered around the stars and astronomical observation. Their math was probably largely observation of the interaction of numbers and philosophical truisms. The Nile tended to flood on schedule each year since the monsoons were fairly regular. High Nile was important tothe Egyptians and its effects were the most important thing each year to the overall economy. However, every indicatiuon is the inundation came to Giza and it was the inundation that was recorded on the Palermo Stone. The amount listed in the records was far to little to be the height of the Nile. But the height of the inundation was of extreme importance because this water was used for numerous critical purposes and was the manifestation of the entire earthly ennead. This cool effervescent inundation was the Gods on earth. It was at the very root of this pyra- mid building culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cladking Posted November 4, 2011 Author #14 Share Posted November 4, 2011 I can't view your vid at work. Any large construction project has to take drainage into account. I don't see anywhere in Petrie's writings on this where he implies water was to be collected by the pyramid. Obviously, in the case of rain, water would be collected in the interior (and on the pavement surrounding) the unfinished G.P. This rainwater would need to be drained to continue operations. This is what Petrie said the trenches were for. Petrie believed in a large straight on ramp which would leave the water catchment device wide open and draining water in a rain. Today this belief has been utterly rejected by almost everyone. The water catchment device wouldn't work and would be unnecessary with other systems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cladking Posted November 4, 2011 Author #15 Share Posted November 4, 2011 There may be no way to build the entire pyramid using ramps since the ramps would have to be removed and then rebuilt to apply the cladding. The ramps would already require more effort than the pyramid and applying cladding would double this work. I misspoke a little bit here. This is actually more of an argument which disproves all the fly by night, integral, or attached to the side ramping systems that people invent. I don't know why it never occured to me before but all these systems are ruled out by the need to apply cladding on the way down which is an impossibility. This simply rules out virtually every single ramping idea but especially im- portant is it rules out most of the contra-evidenced spiral ramps. Only Leh- ner's theory survives since the ramps rest on the ground. Internal ramps sur- vive as well. Petrie's ramp survives. None of these ideas are consistent with the vertical lines however and all the other arguments and evidence against them still stand. This argument wasn't appropriate here but was on my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilthor Posted November 4, 2011 #16 Share Posted November 4, 2011 It would make sense if pyramids could collect water but they can't. Good video. This is along the lines of what I've always felt GP1 was initially intended for: water resource management. Keep in mind that the surface area of GP's 4 sides is vastly immense and reaches up into the air off the floor of the plateau. Also, due to the thermal mass of the structure, as well as its white tura cladding, it's surface temperature would remain fairly constant through day and night. This would allow the pyramid to literally pull moisture from the atmosphere via condensation every day, regardless of season, and in potentially significant amounts. So you have rain, condensation, and ground water all being directed by the pyramid into the relatively small volume enclosure that surrounds its base. Pretty smart folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilthor Posted November 4, 2011 #17 Share Posted November 4, 2011 To put things into perspective, Assuming the GP has an exposed surface area of about 925,000 sq ft.; If each square YARD could produce a single cup of water per day via condensation, Over 6,000 new gallons of fresh water would be seen in the enclosure every morning. I bet somebody got laid for this idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cladking Posted November 4, 2011 Author #18 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Good video. This is along the lines of what I've always felt GP1 was initially intended for: water resource management. Keep in mind that the surface area of GP's 4 sides is vastly immense and reaches up into the air off the floor of the plateau. Also, due to the thermal mass of the structure, as well as its white tura cladding, it's surface temperature would remain fairly constant through day and night. This would allow the pyramid to literally pull moisture from the atmosphere via condensation every day, regardless of season, and in potentially significant amounts. So you have rain, condensation, and ground water all being directed by the pyramid into the relatively small volume enclosure that surrounds its base. Pretty smart folks. Thank you. Very good points. The idea of condensation has occured to me before but I was forced to reject it because of the low humidity conditions of the desert. Perhaps I dismissed it too quickly since humidity goes up in the middle of the summer when the wind switches to the north. There are conditions under which significant amounts of condensation would have occured but I believe as a source of water alone these condi- tions were far too infrequent to warrant construction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cladking Posted November 4, 2011 Author #19 Share Posted November 4, 2011 To put things into perspective, Assuming the GP has an exposed surface area of about 925,000 sq ft.; If each square YARD could produce a single cup of water per day via condensation, Over 6,000 new gallons of fresh water would be seen in the enclosure every morning. I bet somebody got laid for this idea. I've always said the white and red pyramids were to denote hot and cold running water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilthor Posted November 4, 2011 #20 Share Posted November 4, 2011 There are conditions under which significant amounts of condensation would have occured but I believe as a source of water alone these condi- tions were far too infrequent to warrant construction. Agreed...which is why I said this: So you have rain, condensation, and ground water all being directed by the pyramid into the relatively small volume enclosure that surrounds its base Sorry you missed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cladking Posted November 4, 2011 Author #21 Share Posted November 4, 2011 To put things into perspective, Assuming the GP has an exposed surface area of about 925,000 sq ft.; If each square YARD could produce a single cup of water per day via condensation, Over 6,000 new gallons of fresh water would be seen in the enclosure every morning. I bet somebody got laid for this idea. I see some problems with this. I doubt that you could get so much water on a regular basis. Over the summer the pyramid will warm up near the surface and condensation will decrease. You might actually get so much initially but when the wind is wrong and as the season wears on the amount decreases. A bigger problem is that this catchment device is designed to handle far larger amounts of water than a mere 6000 gallons. If intended for a small amount of water it would be much narrower around the pyramid (G2's water catchment is several times the size of the pyramid) and it would be very carefully sloped so all the water ran to a specific location. While the G1 catchment does funnel the water to the so called mortuary temple it is not carefully sloped. There are low and high spots so much of the water would sit in low spots where it would be difficult to collect and would tend to evaporate away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cladking Posted November 4, 2011 Author #22 Share Posted November 4, 2011 (edited) Sorry you missed it. I'm certainly in agreement that they had sources of water on the plateau which orthodoxy refuses to even consider. I'm certainly in agreement that condensation would be one of these sources. I merely can't agree that condensation could be sufficient reason to build a great pyramid. Edited to add that they might have built and designed the pyramid the way they did to maximize condensation but not that it was a machine to generate condensate. Edited November 4, 2011 by cladking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hortie Posted November 4, 2011 #23 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Where's the ramp? Hahahahahaha nice one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harte Posted November 4, 2011 #24 Share Posted November 4, 2011 To put things into perspective, Assuming the GP has an exposed surface area of about 925,000 sq ft.; If each square YARD could produce a single cup of water per day via condensation, Over 6,000 new gallons of fresh water would be seen in the enclosure every morning. I bet somebody got laid for this idea. 6000 gallons is considerably less than one-one hundredth of the amount of water rolling by in a single second in the Nile, at the time only a few hundred meters away. Bet nobody got laid for an idea that didn't exist. If it did, it was a solution to a problem that didn't exist. Harte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hortie Posted November 4, 2011 #25 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Interesting thoery but seems an awful lot of trouble to go to just to collect water, which was generally in plentiful supply in that area due to the annual flooding of the NIle. Also, if this was the reason for the pyramids being built, why the complex interior? In my humble opinion it just doesnt hold water (scuse the pun) This was my initial reaction when I seen this as well. However what if the water collection aspect was made after the pyramids were completed and someone thought hmmmm, we can collect this water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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