JFK (Oswald)

[LucidElement]

For the better part of 12 years since I've been a member on this site, Conspiracy theories have never been a huge interest to me. However, Im reading Greg Iles new book "The Bone Tree" and their is a segment in it which talks about JFK and Oswald. As many may or may not know, i was a history major in college. Moreover, one topic that I never read into much was the assasination of JFK. (Usually history in college is talked about as a whole, WW2, WW1, Ancient Egypt, Middle East ect) that being said, Im curious to know all your thoughts on JFK assasination (those who are interested/read up on it)... You read a lot about Oswald, but no one really talks about Jack Ruby (many people couldnt tell you who killed Oswald, but they could tell you who killed JFK)

I read Ruby may or may not have had ties with the mafia? (Club owner) but many articles say he was just a regular joe....

Some questions i'd like to ask is... Why did Oswald kill Kennedy? (whats the documented/reasoning/belief behind it)

Why did Ruby kill Oswald? (Again, these could be easy answers, im just trying to get a gist on this)

I want to copy a qoute from this book im reading to put things into perspective about the so called "Magic Bullet" the one bullet that Oswald shot that killed Kennedy and Pased through Governor Connally....

One bullet according to the Warren Commison.... (From "The Bone Tree" Greg Iles) "The bullet was fired from the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository passed throuhj President Kenndy's back and out his neck and then through Governor Connally's chest and wrist and embedded itself in the Governor's thigh. If so, this bullet traversed 15 layers of clothing, 7 layers of skin and approximetly 15 inches of tissue, struck a necktie knot, removed 4 inches of rib and shattered a raidus bone"...

After I read that and did a brief google search, the details all checked out.... Obviously all things are possible. We've all heard of freak accidents, but the posture of those two men in the care could have played an effect with the bullet and how it passed..

Im just curious to hear all your thoughts....

I am sure there have been many JFK topics over the years, but this one im just looking for questions/statements ive asked and talked about.

Thanks Guys!

[Lilly]

I've heard all sorts of ideas on the 'who/what/why's' for over 50 years now. I'd just turned 10 when Kennedy was killed so I have memories of the event. Here's what I've concluded from all I've heard over these many years.

1) Oswald was a Communist (he had lived in USSR and had a Russian wife). Mr Oswald was seriously POed at President Kennedy's stance regarding Cuba, his marriage was failing (wasn't even living with his wife), and he was an odd loner (probably what we'd call a personality disorder). This all added up to him wanting to take out the President.

2) Mr Ruby did have connections with organized crime but he was not a 'made man' (ie, card carrying member of the Mafia). Mr Ruby said he wanted to spare the country (and Mrs Kennedy) the agony of having to go through a long court trial.

3) The so-called 'magic bullet' has been a real bone of contention. Some say one bullet could do this, others say it could not. However, witnesses at the scene still claim (to this day) that some gun shots came from the infamous 'grassy knoll' area. If so, this would indicate more than just Mr Oswald shooting at the motorcade.

4) Evidence (including Mr Oswald's gun) was found on the 6th floor of the school book depository building. It's pretty clear (IMO) that Mr Oswald was shooting from there (some witnesses saw the rifle barrel in the window) but it's not clear if Oswald was the only shooter.

Basically, there are some things everyone can agree with and other things many disagree with. I'm not sure we'll ever know for sure 'exactly' what went down that day in Dallas, but I know it did indeed change our country.

[Taun]

I vividly remember that day... Like Lilly I was 10 (1953 was a great year, wasn't it Lilly)... Jack Ruby's part in this is the part that always puzzled me the most... reports (after the fact) were that

he was dying of cancer (which is how he died in prison) and I don't know if that factored into his decision or not...

But a bit of personal rememberance now...

We were living in Limestone, Maine - just outside of Loring Air Force Base (A major Strategic Air Command Base of the day)... My father was in the Army, and he was assigned to an Air Defense Missile base

(Nike Hercules - for those that know abou them) just outside of Loring... We lived in a row of government houses just at the foot of the hill the missile site was on... Living so close to the launcher area, all the kids

(and wives) knew the various sounds of the "klaxxons" (air horns) that signalled a drill, a training exercise, maintenance calls, etc...

That morning I was playing hooky from school, and was playing in the living room with one of pre-school sisters, my mom was waxing the kitchen floor, while dad was on duty as Fire Control Officer (He was enlisted, but they

were on 72 hour "release" (maintenance) status - not an active site) - so he was in charge... Suddenly the sirens went off, but not in any pattern we knew.. .Just one long (over an hour!) blast... We all ran to the

back yard and soon saw the missiles rising up out of their silos... Normally the missiles have red streamers on them that say "Remove before flight", these are marks that the missile is not ready to launch... These

missiles had no streamers - the first time I'd ever seen that execpt at test launchings in the New Mexico desert... Mom ran back inside and turned the TV on, but all we had was Canadian television and some stupid

curling match was on... After a bout half an hour the match was interrupted and the announcer said that kennedy had been shot, but no news as to his status... I just knew we were at war... All very

traumatic for a generation that had been raised on "Duck and Cover" drills, and the specter of global nuclear war...

Edited June 2, 2015 by Taun

[Lilly]

I was living in upstate NY (my Dad was working on the Niagara Power Plant). I was in school and had noticed that the janitor had lowered the flag to half mast. When I asked my teacher about this she literally ran out of the classroom! She returned in a couple of minutes and gave us the horrible news. We were immediately sent home...it was all very unsettled as news did not travel as quickly back then. I remember sitting with my mother in front of the TV set, the tears were running down her face as we watched the manhunt unfolded in Dallas.

Edited June 2, 2015 by Lilly

[LucidElement]

I was living in upstate NY (my Dad was working on the Niagara Power Plant). I was in school and had noticed that the janitor had lowered the flag to half mast. When I asked my teacher about this she literally ran out of the classroom! She returned in a couple of minutes and gave us the horrible news. We were immediately sent home...it was all very unsettled as news did not travel as quickly back then. I remember sitting with my mother in front of the TV set, the tears were running down her face as we watched the manhunt unfolded in Dallas.

I could only imagine how intense that was to watch on TV.

[LucidElement]

My dad believes the Mafia killed him. He thinks there were 2 shooters and the Warren Commission covered it up for political reasons. He thinks LBJ was working with the mafia and Jimmy Hoffa. What do you guys think about that? If that is true, why would LBJ be working with the Mafia?

[LucidElement]

What do you guys think about this article? http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/august2006/300806jfk.htm

[Leo Krupe]

There are numerous good sites on the web for research, two of them are http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm (many, many links there to other pages, and McAdams discusses the single bullet theory, Oswald, the medical evidence, etc.) There's also http://www.jfkfiles.com/ which is Dale Myers site. He used realistic CGI to show Oswald was the lone gunman. I also recommend Bugliosi's Reclaiming History, although it might be a bit pricey, and is more of a reference work than beach reading. I've checked it out of my local library a couple of times. It's massive, and makes an excellent case against Oswald, and delves deeply into the reasons.

Why did Oswald kill Kennedy? (whats the documented/reasoning/belief behind it)

The short answer is Oswald was a nut. He was a nobody, and knew it. He thought he was a Communist, but even the Soviets didn't want him. He was disillusioned with everyone and everything. He wanted to make an important contribution to the "Revolution" (being part of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee), and had previously tried to kill a Major General (Edwin Walker).

But what's the official, no-holds-barred, documented reason? No one knows, since Ruby killed Oswald before any information could be released (such as at a trial). The best reasoning is he was a little man who wanted to be important.

Why did Ruby kill Oswald?

Revenge. Oswald killed the president, and Ruby went after him. It had nothing to do with mob ties (although, IIRC, some mobsters were customers of Ruby's nightclub(s), Ruby wasn't part of the mob).

The "magic bullet" was anything but. The CTers would have you believe that Connally was sitting right in front and at the same height as Kennedy. He wasn't. The jumpseat that Connally was on was slightly to the inside (I think 6 inches toward the center of the car) and slightly lower. Plus, Connally wasn't facing straight ahead as the CTers would say, but was turned. Check out Dale Myer's CGI to see what I mean.

Everything, and I mean every bit of evidence, points to Oswald being the lone gunman.

My dad believes the Mafia killed him. He thinks there were 2 shooters and the Warren Commission covered it up for political reasons. He thinks LBJ was working with the mafia and Jimmy Hoffa. What do you guys think about that? If that is true, why would LBJ be working with the Mafia?

I don't believe it, because there's no evidence. No one saw a second gunman (in spite of the photo of "Badgeman"), and people saw Oswald hold his rifle out the window.

What do you guys think about this article? http://www.prisonpla...6/300806jfk.htm

I think it's a crock. Just words, nothing to back it up.

[flyingswan]

The short answer is Oswald was a nut.

A nut who was unexpectedly presented with a golden opportunity when the presidential motorcade was routed past the building where he worked.

[LucidElement]

A nut who was unexpectedly presented with a golden opportunity when the presidential motorcade was routed past the building where he worked.

swald got randomly, through the friend of a friend of his wife, and only thirty seven days before the assasination. Kennedy's motorcade route was chose by the Secret Service only Seven days before the assassination. And it wasnt made public until three days prior. No one could have placed Oswald in that job in that building with the intent to kill JFK, because no one knew at the time he got the job what the motorcade route would be." (The Bone Tree - Greg IIles) ..

Interesting statement, never realized that.

[SHaYap]

I still don't understand how Oswald, defecting from US to Soviet Russia and then got back again to the US with his wife who is also a daughter of some Military Official during those days at the height of the Cold War ...

~

[Taun]

I still don't understand how Oswald, defecting from US to Soviet Russia and then got back again to the US with his wife who is also a daughter of some Military Official during those days at the height of the Cold War ...

~

Back then you could go to Russia, even marry a Russian... The "penalty" for the average person, was that you could never hold a security clearance... The "Iron Curtain" was a bit more "porous" than most think...

Getting in and out of the US was pretty easy back then as well.. No internet... Data was much harder to check and took much longer - so a person coming back, and not acting suspicious, could almost always

just show their passport, say that they "have nothing to declare (import tax wise)" and then just smile and walk through...

[SHaYap]

Back then you could go to Russia, even marry a Russian... The "penalty" for the average person, was that you could never hold a security clearance... The "Iron Curtain" was a bit more "porous" than most think...

Getting in and out of the US was pretty easy back then as well.. No internet... Data was much harder to check and took much longer - so a person coming back, and not acting suspicious, could almost always

just show their passport, say that they "have nothing to declare (import tax wise)" and then just smile and walk through...

But Taun ... Oswald defected ... he wasn't over there on an extended holiday. In regards to 'security clearance' didn't he got himself a job on some highly sensitive mapping department for the military ?

~

[Aftermath]

swald got randomly, through the friend of a friend of his wife, and only thirty seven days before the assasination. Kennedy's motorcade route was chose by the Secret Service only Seven days before the assassination. And it wasnt made public until three days prior. No one could have placed Oswald in that job in that building with the intent to kill JFK, because no one knew at the time he got the job what the motorcade route would be." (The Bone Tree - Greg IIles) ..

Interesting statement, never realized that.

Yes, quite right, no one could have planted him there after the motorcade route was planned. However, think of it this way: Oswald was planted first then the Secret Service was encouraged to plan the motorcade route so that JFK's car was driven by the SBD where a planted Oswald was waiting.

[Leo Krupe]

Yes, quite right, no one could have planted him there after the motorcade route was planned. However, think of it this way: Oswald was planted first then the Secret Service was encouraged to plan the motorcade route so that JFK's car was driven by the SBD where a planted Oswald was waiting.

Where Oswald shot at him from the sixth floor, another gunman from behind the wooden fence, and another from the sewer grating, and from the railroad overpass....

If the conspiracy were that far inside, why not just poison him in the White House? They made it too complex. Now, if Oswald was the sole gunman, then it's all much simpler.

[Aftermath]

If the conspiracy were that far inside, why not just poison him in the White House?

Well that's just absurd! I mean come on man it's just insane.

It's much better to involve Oswald from the sixth floor of the SBD, another gunman from behind the wooden fence, and another from the sewer grating. Not to mention the Babushka lady. I don't hold any credence to a person near the the railroad overpass.... that's just overkill.

[IamsSon]

4) Evidence (including Mr Oswald's gun) was found on the 6th floor of the school book depository building. It's pretty clear (IMO) that Mr Oswald was shooting from there (some witnesses saw the rifle barrel in the window) but it's not clear if Oswald was the only shooter.

Basically, there are some things everyone can agree with and other things many disagree with. I'm not sure we'll ever know for sure 'exactly' what went down that day in Dallas, but I know it did indeed change our country.

The issue with this is that Oswald was seen by one of the first policemen to rush into the Schoolbook depository on the second floor break room, looking completely fresh. If he had been the one who shot Kennedy, he would have had to travel from the sniper's nest to the staircase, down four floors, and to the break room in a few minutes. Someone who did that would have been out of breath, not the way Oswald did. Article

Edited June 10, 2015 by IamsSon

[Leo Krupe]

Damn, Oops Monkey, I forgot about the Babushka Lady! Well, that makes it an open and shut case right there.

As for Oswald not being out of breath in the lunchroom, he was seen by the policeman 70-90 seconds after the shots. It's not like he ran 100 meter dash.

Oswald was also the only one missing when authorities took a roll call of the TSBD employees. Why did he leave?

[SHaYap]

It always bothered me with what Oswald said to the TV reporters at the Police Station ... 'I am just a patsy' ~

If I understand it right , In those days being ringed as a patsy is a term mainly used among those privy with the crime gangs and mafia circles ... not a commonly used word in general ~

~

[Leo Krupe]

Criminals probably used the term "patsy," but according to dictionary.com and Wiktionary, it was coined before the turn of the 20th century, probably from a vaudeville character named Patsy Bolivar, who got blamed when anything went wrong. In any event, I'm certain it wasn't just used by mobsters and other ne'er-do-wells.

[Aftermath]

Well, it's an interesting choice of words... coupled with not denying the act, it seems very strange.

[Maureen_jacobs]

I've read countless articles, books, dissertations on this subject and I still cannot come to a reasonable explanation. If one were to look at the simplest explanation, it would be Oswald as the shooter.

But that is the easiest answer. Do you think he could have made the shot? Unsure. If this were a "planned" hit, I believe there would not have so many loose ends. I think that when it comes to conspiracies, the word itself so asks for two or more people. The more folks involved, less likely for successful anonymity.

As much as I'd like to believe Oswald was an idiot who couldn't hit the side of the farm from five feet away, it seems that he is the most obvious choice.

People's memories are fallible! When under stress, the most certainly become more cluttered!

As I always say, ask questions.

[Poltergeistnz]

From memory, yes Ruby had mafia ties, but he apparently also had police ties so read into that what you will.

I don't know why or if in fact Oswald DID kill him. (note the wording here, I didn't say didn't shoot)

I believe Ruby shot Oswald either to silence him (for his own agenda) or to silence him (for someone elses agenda) or he was just doing it for the "glory"

I don't believe that one bullet (the magic bullet) did all of that and I do believe there was more than one shooter.

[Poltergeistnz]

Where Oswald shot at him from the sixth floor, another gunman from behind the wooden fence, and another from the sewer grating, and from the railroad overpass....

If the conspiracy were that far inside, why not just poison him in the White House? They made it too complex. Now, if Oswald was the sole gunman, then it's all much simpler.

I don't believe there was one on the railroad overpass as there were people there and they claimed to see smoke or something coming from the grassy knoll. So unless they were in on it... nah I believe them and don't think they were in on it. As for the sewer... it's possible but I doubt anyone was there.

TSBD and the grassy knoll are the best options as to where the shooters were.

[Poltergeistnz]

It always bothered me with what Oswald said to the TV reporters at the Police Station ... 'I am just a patsy' ~

If I understand it right , In those days being ringed as a patsy is a term mainly used among those privy with the crime gangs and mafia circles ... not a commonly used word in general ~

~

That's why I believe he didn't act alone, I think he was double crossed/set up by someone else. I think he pulled the trigger but expected to be whisked away to safety but was left high and dry. Either that or he was just trying to save his own butt.