78 replies to this topic

[the L]

Anyone who pay attention what I usually wrote know that prefer Kurgan theory when we talk about Indo Europeans. But I found out one interesting theory. Out of India theory which says that Indo European language family originate from Indian  subcontinent. That IE in waves start to migrate to Asia and finally in Europe. Theory dates from 18 century but there are scientists who claim that this might be the case. Many famous people in history belive in it, Kant, Friedrich Schlegel ,Voltaire, Schoppenhauer.OIT said that proto IE lived in Punjab, north India. They migrate to Bactria (Kambojas) and later to Central asia, Caspian coast (Paradas) and to Tarim Basin (Cinas). Which is now known as Tocharians group of IE speakers. Then in 2000 BC IE went further to Anatolia and Balkan and created own dialect of IE language by mixing with local people and their languages. In central Asia IE discovered uses of horse. In the end they migrate in western Europe. In 4th millenium BC Indus Valley civilization rise and Indo Iranians expand in Mesopotamia and Central Asia that way Proto Indo European languages evolved to Proto Indo Iranian languages, leaving behind the Proto Indo Aryans. When Saraswati river dry out in c. 1900BC Indo Aryans migrate and establish Mittani kingdom c 1500 BC in west and they went south in India and mix with Dravidian  people.  I read once that there is evidences  of Iranians in India before they were in Central Asia. OIT say that  there has been no migrations  or invasion into India until 520 BC Darius and Persians conquer India and later Alexander  circa 327 BC leaving Greeks in that area after his death. Theory also said that Vedic texts describe migrations out of India and not describe any migrations into India. And there is no archaeologcial evidence for  Aryan invasion or migration. I will quote wiki here: Thus while the linguistic community stands firm with the Kurgan hypothesis archaeological community tends to be more agnostic.

Also theory that Aryan invasion cause fall of Indus valley civilization is debunked and Aryans didnt cause urbanization of Ganga Yamuna valley.We also know that Tin was used in Mesoptamia  around 3000 BC. And we know that Tin mines are on Balkan, south England and Afghanistan.  From where Tin came in Mesopotamia? Probably from Afghanistan. Or perhaps from Mohenjodaro and Harappa. We know that from 3500 metalcasting was done in IVC. Bronze was in use from 3300 BC in Harappa. Is it possible that Indo Iranians bring artifacts from Tin perhaps?



OIT is often dismissed with just mentioning of Dravidian language. But that can be explained with Proto Elamo Dravidian language originate in Mesopotamia  and spread to south India where can still be found. There are indeed similarites betweeb Elamite and Harappan script. Then existence of Brahui language.
http://en.wikipedia....Brahui_language
Brahui is spoken in the southwestern Pakistan, as well as in regions of Afghanistan and Iran that border Pakistan.


Whats your opinion?

[the L]

When I heard about OIT I instantly start thinking on Gypsies. Here is what wiki said about them:Genetic and linguistic evidence has prooven that Gypsies or Romani people originate from India. According to one theory they migrate about 500 AD in the west. Originally they were in Rajasthan and they moved circa 250 BC to Punjab and Sindh. So do we actually seen OIT in front of our eyes? Did gypsies followed ancient route? Did they search for their lost countrymen and hope that they will be accepted due ancient unity?

[the L]

East Europeans indeed share some things with NW Indians. Im a Croat so I will try to gave you examples of linguistic similarites between Croatian language and Sanskirt.  

Meaning-Croatian-Sanskrit-Meaning
  
to argue-svađati –vadati-dispute about
to ask-prosit-prachhati-to ask
to bake-peći-pacati- bake
to bark-lajati-rayati-to bark
to be-biti-bhavati-to become
to burn-gorjeti-ghаrati- burn
to transport-voziti-vahati-to transport
to catch-loviti-labhate-to catch
to cough-kašljati-kāsate-to cough
to drink-piti –piyate-to drink
to dry-sušiti-śuṣyati-to dry
to fall-padati-padyate-to fall
to fart-prditi-pardati-to break wind downwards
to fear-bojati se– bhyasate-be afraid, tremble
to go, walk-ići/šetati-iṭ /eṭati-to go
to know-znati-jānāti-to know (or zna-jna)
to lick-lizati – lihati-to lick
to live-živjeti-jīvati-to live
to love,to kiss-ljubiti-lubhati-to desire, be interested in
to melt-topiti-tapati-to make hot
to measure-mjeriti-miroti-to measure
to praise-slaviti-śramyati-sound, shout, loud praise
to roll-valjati-valate-to turn
to shake-tresti-trasyati-to tremble
to sit-sjediti-sīdati-to sit upon
to sleep-spavati-svapiti-to sleep
to stay awake-Budan/bdjeti-budhyati-to be awake
to stick-lijepiti-limpyati- to stick
to swim-plivati-plavate-to swim
to turn back-vratiti-vartate-to turn
to wake up-buditi-budhyate-to wake up
to have sexual intercourse-jebati-yabhati-to have sexual intercourse

[the L]

2011 Genetic study :
…we confirmed the existence of a general principal component cline stretching from Europe to south India.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3234374/
Distribution of R1a (purple) and R1b (red)see above
But according to wiki Y DNA haplogroup R2 and is rarely found outside India, Pakistan, Iran, and southern Central Asia.

[the L]

According to wiki Rigveda are vedic sanskirt  ten book with hymns which dates from 1700-1100 BC in west India and its one of oldest text in any IE languages according to philological and linguistic evidences. Cultulary and linguisticly looking there are similarites between Iranian Avesta which we often connect with Andronovo and Sintashta Petrovka cultures  of 2200-1600 BC. Sarasvati river is mentioned in all ten books except 4th. It even outnumber mentioning of Indus. It was worshiped as one of three great goddesses which rides swan. Rigveda dont mention Aryans at all. How come if they recoreded how people migrate from India? That realy support OIT.
Sarasvati river was mentioned in Nadistuti hymn in Rigveda between Yamuna and Sutlej. Interestingly Rigveda 10 and sam hymn glorify river Sindhu and from that scholars concluded that already Sarasvati dry out. But that doesnt have to be case since Rigveda 10 was written later then others. Other documents such as Jaiminiya, Tandya and Mahabharata say that it dried up in desert. I search on Internet and information contradicts when that happened. Some say that Satulaj and Yamuna once fed Sarasvati but due some tectonic events (which?) Satluj gone west into Indus and Yamuna east into Ganges.On wiki it said that French satelite SPOT find Sarasvati and that was pre Harappan and start drying from 3500 BC. Number of archaeological sites near shadow river Sarasvati outnumber sites around Indus river. There are 414 sites around Sarasvati and 80% of them dates from 4000 to 2000 BC. Which tell us that river was still there during that period.
It is possible that Rigveda predates Indus valley civilization. Because Rigveda doesnt mention silver. Only bronze and gold. Although we know that Indus valley civilization used silver. Rigveda doesnt speak about brick either and brick was one of main feature of Indus valley civilization.  Rigveda doesnt mention rice or cotton. And rice was used in Indus Valley civilization such as in Mohenjodaro and Lothal. Cotton was also used by Harappans. Rigveda doesnt mention fire altars, tubed drainages large cities, buildings, and so on.

[the L]

In 6th millennium BC  Mehrgarh culture (todays Pakistan) reached  their zenith. It was precursor to the Indus Valley Civilization.
It was a time when Black sea floods with salt water, time when tsunami from Mt.Etna ruined Med. Coast, time when female sculptures with snakes are produced on Crete,time when Hekla erupted on Iceland, time when , according to Byzantine calendar, (01.09.5509 BC) dates Bible creation.

In 4th millenium BC Indus Valley civilization rise and Indo Iranians expand in Mesopotamia and Central Asia that way Proto Indo European languages evolved to Proto Indo Iranian languages, leaving behind the Proto Indo Aryans.

Who knows what might happend then?vIn 4th millenium BC in Mesopotamia, Egypt civilizations took first steps. In Peru, China, Balkan cultures developed.  Maykop culture  use Bronze, Vinča culture developed, Varna culture use gold.  In 3100 BC Narmer plate was created as sign of united Upper and Lower Egypt and new capital  Memphis. Interestingly in August 11, 3114 BC Mayans start their calendar. Writting is developed in Mesopotamia then in Egypt. Horses are domesticated in Ukraine before cca. 1000 years. Agriculture flourished. Beginnings of urbanisation in Sumer and Egypt. Lyres,flutes, harps were played in Egypt. On Malta Ggantija megalithic temple is built 3600 BC, followd by 3200 BC Tarxien temple and Hagar Qim. Gobekli Tepe was burried. Dog is our friend for long now. Mamooths are long extinct. No signs of Neanderthals. In 3300 BC Otzi Iceman kill himself on border in Italy and Austria.  

So are Europeans (except Basques) originate in India?

Edited by the L, 13 January 2013 - 01:25 PM.

[the L]

Only thing which people use against OIT is that only one branch of Indo-European language is found in India. Which is not true.

Even wiki used that as fact have explaination.


Only one branch of Indo-European, Indo-Aryan, is found in India, whereas the Italic, Venetic, Illyrian, Germanic, Baltic, Slavic, Thracian, and Greek branches of Indo-European are all found in Central-Eastern Europe.However, the existence of the Tocharian language family in Western China would shift the center of gravity eastward. Some scholars argue that the various language families in Central and Eastern Europe evolved fairly recently, which implies that there was less diversity in the western side of the Indo-European language family during the 2nd millennium BCE at a time contemporaneous with Vedic Sanskrit.

But its not true.

In India we have Pali, Magadhi, Sauraseni, Maharashtri /Prakrit languages which shares similarities with Indo European languages and not found in Vedas. For that languages sceptics use theory of multiple migrations in India. Many philologists support that view that they are brench of IE same as Indo Aryan. Usually those who support OIT,

Edited by the L, 13 January 2013 - 01:39 PM.

[the L]

Anyway I always liked diversity of India,Gandhi,Taj Mahal,Zero, Chess, Ayurveda, Vastu, Mahabharata, Ramayana, Kama Sutra, Elephants, Hinduism Islam Jainism Buddhism, Ellora caves, Varansi, Concept of time in cycles-Yuga, Plastic surgery, Mughal empire, Gupta empire, Indian math, Kerala, Ashoka, Tigers, Vimanas, Indus Valley Civilization, Kalaripayattu, Indian rebelion, Indus, Ganges, Saraswati,Submerged city Dwarka, Tamil,...I knew that isnt for nothing.

[the L]

Im not philologist but still...

http://en.wikipedia....-satem_isogloss

Division of language into Centum and Satem

centum (blue, except that Tocharian on the east is grey)




Whats in middle?

Iran and India.

Blue: Centum languages

Edited by the L, 13 January 2013 - 01:48 PM.

[the L]

I think we only need to find more proof that Iranians originate from India.

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

the L, on 13 January 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

So are Europeans (except Basques) originate in India?

Lone Wolf (and cub). No, we are from the area of the Black Sea. I do not go with one precise location, for instance Maikop peninsula, Rostov-on-Don or Krasnodar. The evidence is not so clear on this affair so I think it best to just go with Black Sea area. There is certainly evidence of movements out of that area to far west of Europe and even to northern China. I speak about the Celts, as I believe the mummies found in northern China wore clothes of type used by Celts, in particular a specific type of pattern and weave of their clothes. I use them as example of now far migrations went, and I see no reason why some, not necessarily Celts of course, migrated into northern India. I expect you will soon get very very long and detailed reply, probably out of India......

[the L]

Atentutankh-pasheri, on 13 January 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

Lone Wolf (and cub). No, we are from the area of the Black Sea. I do not go with one precise location, for instance Maikop peninsula, Rostov-on-Don or Krasnodar. The evidence is not so clear on this affair so I think it best to just go with Black Sea area. There is certainly evidence of movements out of that area to far west of Europe and even to northern China. I speak about the Celts, as I believe the mummies found in northern China wore clothes of type used by Celts, in particular a specific type of pattern and weave of their clothes. I use them as example of now far migrations went, and I see no reason why some, not necessarily Celts of course, migrated into northern India. I expect you will soon get very very long and detailed reply, probably out of India......

Hi!
This is my first sentence in post 1.

the L, on 13 January 2013 - 01:05 PM, said:

Anyone who pay attention what I usually wrote know that prefer Kurgan theory when we talk about Indo Europeans.

But I dont want that this thread become finding proof for Kurgan or Anatolia theory. Although that is connected. We search for origin of IE.
I wish that we discuss possibility of OIT. What if is true? Can we find more evidence that support it?
I dont know how Tarim Basin mummies fits into Kurgan, Anatolia or India theory.

I think that if we found more evidence that Iranians originate from India that OIT might realy be true.
Because that explain everything very well.

I knew soon as I seen your name that you will vote for south Russia theory.
Thanks on answer.

Edited by the L, 13 January 2013 - 01:59 PM.

[the L]

1.Rigveda (alternaive view? )mentioned some tribes which we can connect with Iranians.
Prthu-Parthians
Parsu-Persians
Madra-Medes



2.According to the Histories of Herodotus
The Medes were called anciently by all people Aryans; but when Medea, the Colchian, came to them from Athens, they changed their name. Such is the account which they themselves give.

Edited by the L, 13 January 2013 - 03:00 PM.

[the L]

Indians and Iranians have ancient unity, culturaly, lingusticly and geographicly. Rigveda and Avesta are lingusticly similar. Rigveda and Avesta can be use as evidence of their main origin. Was that India?
Ever wonder why we dont have archaeologcial evidence for Anatolia and Kurgan hypothesis in the term of architecture?
What if Out of India theory is true? Does that mean that Harappan civilization is actualy home of Indo Europeans?
Recently  we push back date of Indus Valley civilization site, Bhirrana to 7380 BC.
http://www.hinducurr...urce=newsletter

[the L]

Is Mohenjodaro orgin of Indo European people?




Here is pictures of Bhirrana 7380 BC


http://asi.nic.in/as...rana_images.asp

Edited by the L, 13 January 2013 - 10:38 PM.