198 replies to this topic

[scowl]

Mr Walker, on 18 January 2013 - 12:02 AM, said:

Ps  also see the example in 2 Kings chapter 19, where an angel destroys 185,000 Assyrians in one night. God often manifests as an angel, and there are many different descrition of angels, including a number which appear to float or levitate. One appeared to daniel as a man dressed in linen but his face was like lightning and his eyes like torches of fire.

In fact I also forgot another famous angel sent by Our Loving God before that at the end of 2 Samuel. Since it involved God killing thousands of innocent people naturally it slipped my mind.

God told David to take a census, so he did. Then God was furious that David took the census (hey, you try to make sense out of it!) and wants to punish David. Now when God talks about punishments to special people like David, He's not talking about punishing them. God has an interesting sense of justice. So God gives David the choice of three things that will cause unimaginable suffering to the innocent Chosen People of Israel who God loves more than anything and had no part in David's sin. See, you gotta dig how God thinks. Naturally David selects what sounds like the least severe which is exactly how devious God tricks people.

What David thought would be a mere three days of pestilence turned out to be three days of a murderous angel of death flying around and killing every person it sees. The toll after three days was 70,000 innocent lives killed. Of course we readers aren't supposed to dwell on these 70,000 human lives who were killed by the Lord because, hey. who cares about them? No, we're supposed to feel sorry for David because he feels bad about how large this number is.

An angel more like the kind we would imagine is in the beginning of 1 Kings. When Elijah is hiding out in the woods, God sends birds to feed him. When he had to hide out a second time (or third time, I've lost track), apparently the birds are too busy so God sends an angel to feed him instead.

[Mr Walker]

scowl, on 20 January 2013 - 05:07 AM, said:

In fact I also forgot another famous angel sent by Our Loving God before that at the end of 2 Samuel. Since it involved God killing thousands of innocent people naturally it slipped my mind.

God told David to take a census, so he did. Then God was furious that David took the census (hey, you try to make sense out of it!) and wants to punish David. Now when God talks about punishments to special people like David, He's not talking about punishing them. God has an interesting sense of justice. So God gives David the choice of three things that will cause unimaginable suffering to the innocent Chosen People of Israel who God loves more than anything and had no part in David's sin. See, you gotta dig how God thinks. Naturally David selects what sounds like the least severe which is exactly how devious God tricks people.

What David thought would be a mere three days of pestilence turned out to be three days of a murderous angel of death flying around and killing every person it sees. The toll after three days was 70,000 innocent lives killed. Of course we readers aren't supposed to dwell on these 70,000 human lives who were killed by the Lord because, hey. who cares about them? No, we're supposed to feel sorry for David because he feels bad about how large this number is.

An angel more like the kind we would imagine is in the beginning of 1 Kings. When Elijah is hiding out in the woods, God sends birds to feed him. When he had to hide out a second time (or third time, I've lost track), apparently the birds are too busy so God sends an angel to feed him instead.

I am pleased that you know the mind of god so well and are so certain of the "innocence" of people. This simply doesnt even resemble my reading and understanding of this case, nor of the way it fits into the "historical" context of gods relationship with the hebrews and with  David in particular. It is one of the most blatant examples of allowing your prejudices to inform your view of something, that I have ever read. Although there are few other posters on UM who have come close, so you are not alone in this.


Now, even allowing for a desire to instill shock fear and awe, into the people of the time, why would writers portray their god as a monster. No something is not right. The story will contain logical rationales for god's actions and responses which would have been clear and understandable to any reader/listener of the time, and would have shown god to be just and moral, in their understandings.

[Kludge808]

joc, on 20 January 2013 - 02:35 AM, said:

Well, actually yes...it does.  I'm sure she is quite angelic,

Well, most of the time but have you ever raised a daughter as a single parent? It can get nerve wracking at times. :-)  At the same time, I wouldn't trade having done so for anything because the rewards far outweigh the occasional frustrations.

Quote

but Angel angels are not Human angels...they are immortal beings with Fourth Dimensional bodies.   Your beautiful angelic daughter is a human with a three dimensional body.  

We talk about people being possessed by demons but I've come to the belief that possession can be by more benign beings such as angels.  I have no particular theological basis for that other than a strong belief in balance and by observation but, to me, it makes a lot of sense.

[Helen of Annoy]

Crikey, on 19 January 2013 - 10:17 PM, said:

But you started a debate by mistakenly saying Christians think Jesus was God, and I simply corrected you by pointing out that they don't (apart from a few hardcore fundies maybe).
Jesus himself said he wasn't  God, so there's nothing to debate anyway..

No, I didn’t.
I have extremely clearly stated that Christians believe Jesus was God. I have also explained it to you twice that neither I’m Christian, nor I’m here for theological debate (bearing in mind that the nature of Christ is not viewed exactly the same in all churches).

This has nothing to do with phenomenon of angels or angel-like beings, in my opinion, as I also made clear few times, and the moderator also reminded you of the same.

I don’t know what you’re trying to do here, but you obviously are not interested in the topic.
Aren’t there enough of other threads where you can discuss the Holy Trinity issue?



On topic, the angel-like beings from our folk tales have no wings, but they are capable of flying and materialising at desired spot. In some stories they transport humans the same way, either by hugging a human and flying away with them, either by allowing humans to cross the border between the worlds (dimensions as we say today).
Humans were always returned unharmed, but any abuse of knowledge given by vile would result with harsh punishment: gifts would be taken away, crippling and killing could follow. Vile were benevolent and generous, but also very strict about following the few simple requests they'd make.
That too sounds like angels, who appear to help and guide, but can also appear to stop and punish any misuse of their assistance.

[Crikey]

Helen of Annoy, on 20 January 2013 - 09:46 AM, said:

.
I have extremely clearly stated that Christians believe Jesus was God..

That's offtopic, so why post it in this Angels thread?

PS- actually I think I'll research the question "do Christians think Jesus was God?" and try to find out what percentage believe it, and post my findings here, I can't believe the majority of Christians *snip* believe he was God..

edit: removed objectionable content

Edited by Paranoid Android, 21 January 2013 - 04:37 AM.

[Helen of Annoy]

The worst constant of human behaviour is destructiveness.
The appeal of angels is their constructive role, they usually come as guides or rescuers. Sometimes there is destruction required to help, but I know of no old story about angel-like beings where they would bring harm for no reason.

That's the most appealing, but the most intriguing constant in old stories about angel-like beings was, for me personally, their ability to move their material bodies in and out of our world, or the world that we are able to perceive.
Again, this is not an issue for religious person, simply because God is not limited by material.
For me that is an issue, also the issue that prevents me from concluding that angel-like beings from my nation’s history were simply people from more advanced tribes. Advanced more or less, no one known to official history could have levitated and teleported around like that.

[Mr Walker]

Helen of Annoy, on 20 January 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

The worst constant of human behaviour is destructiveness.
The appeal of angels is their constructive role, they usually come as guides or rescuers. Sometimes there is destruction required to help, but I know of no old story about angel-like beings where they would bring harm for no reason.

That's the most appealing, but the most intriguing constant in old stories about angel-like beings was, for me personally, their ability to move their material bodies in and out of our world, or the world that we are able to perceive.
Again, this is not an issue for religious person, simply because God is not limited by material.
For me that is an issue, also the issue that prevents me from concluding that angel-like beings from my nation’s history were simply people from more advanced tribes. Advanced more or less, no one known to official history could have levitated and teleported around like that.

And yet, inside 100 years time we will be doing it, based on current science. I agree that such beings are not native to earth in the past or present, unless they are very ancient and well hidden from us, but that  is unlikely. So we have to look at the other logical alternatives. Human visitors from our future? Technically possible, at least in theory, but also unlikely.

Aliens more advanced and evolved than us, and hence with much more advanced technolgies than any past human beings? The most likely scenario, in my opinion.

The first time i saw an angel materialise as a pillar of light , my immediate reaction was. "Oh wow, A transmat beam. What is going to emerge?".(That was in 1973, and i was only 22 and had no experience with angels, let alone ones  materialising in front of me, before then) But I had watched a lot of startrek, and the angel looked very much like a transmat beam arrival, only much brighter and more solid. It lit up hundreds of square feet of garden, as bright as day.

Edited by Mr Walker, 20 January 2013 - 11:56 PM.

[SubjectDigamma]

Gummug, on 09 January 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

"If you are ashamed of me before men, I will be ashamed of you before the holy angels" - Jesus

AMEN

[Helen of Annoy]

Mr Walker, on 20 January 2013 - 11:55 PM, said:

And yet, inside 100 years time we will be doing it, based on current science. I agree that such beings are not native to earth in the past or present, unless they are very ancient and well hidden from us, but that  is unlikely. So we have to look at the other logical alternatives. Human visitors from our future? Technically possible, at least in theory, but also unlikely.

Aliens more advanced and evolved than us, and hence with much more advanced technolgies than any past human beings? The most likely scenario, in my opinion.

The first time i saw an angel materialise as a pillar of light , my immediate reaction was. "Oh wow, A transmat beam. What is going to emerge?".(That was in 1973, and i was only 22 and had no experience with angels, let alone ones  materialising in front of me, before then) But I had watched a lot of startrek, and the angel looked very much like a transmat beam arrival, only much brighter and more solid. It lit up hundreds of square feet of garden, as bright as day.

I always thought – if only I saw one with my own eyes, I’d know who they are... at least now I know I still wouldn’t know (My mind is still too startreky so I’d probably lean to the alien side.)

The pillar of light, you say. That’s interesting because both my great-grandmother and my grandmother had experiences with what great-grandma thought were vile and grandma thought were the angels.
In both events first the pillar of very bright light appeared. Then angel-like beings materialised out of it and communicated with my great-grandma. In grandma’s case, the pillar never produced any visible beings, but it led my grandma and other refugees to safety.
Good outcome of both events made me sure of one thing: whatever materializes from time to time in front of members of my family, it is not evil.
Angels or someone else, but demons definitely not.
(I don't know why I felt the need to mention that, probably someone was mentioning demons too earlier in the thread.)

Edited by Helen of Annoy, 21 January 2013 - 03:26 PM.

[Etu Malku]

SubjectDigamma, on 21 January 2013 - 12:59 AM, said:

AMEN

Don't you mean Amon?

[scowl]

Mr Walker, on 20 January 2013 - 05:40 AM, said:

I am pleased that you know the mind of god so well and are so certain of the "innocence" of people. This simply doesnt even resemble my reading and understanding of this case, nor of the way it fits into the "historical" context of gods relationship with the hebrews and with  David in particular. It is one of the most blatant examples of allowing your prejudices to inform your view of something, that I have ever read. Although there are few other posters on UM who have come close, so you are not alone in this.

So you believe these 70,000 people deserved to die.

Then why was David upset?

Edited by scowl, 21 January 2013 - 06:06 PM.

[White Unicorn]

Helen of Annoy, on 20 January 2013 - 09:46 AM, said:

On topic, the angel-like beings from our folk tales have no wings, but they are capable of flying and materialising at desired spot. In some stories they transport humans the same way, either by hugging a human and flying away with them, either by allowing humans to cross the border between the worlds (dimensions as we say today).
Humans were always returned unharmed, but any abuse of knowledge given by vile would result with harsh punishment: gifts would be taken away, crippling and killing could follow. Vile were benevolent and generous, but also very strict about following the few simple requests they'd make.
That too sounds like angels, who appear to help and guide, but can also appear to stop and punish any misuse of their assistance.

I agree with you about no wings. When they do appear that way it is probably to let you know , "I'm an angel" since that's how most people now days would interpret them to appear if they were a nice messenger with mission.

[Crikey]

Helen of Annoy, on 20 January 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

..I know of no old story about angel-like beings where they would bring harm for no reason..

Right,for example  there's the well-known Sodom/Gomorrah incident where God sent two angels to wipe out those cesspits of perversion, and I don't think any of us would object to that.
Likewise there were ancient nasty violent tribes and peoples who had to be removed from the gene pool for the general good of humankind, and I don't think we have any objection to that either..
"They will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath" (Revelation 14:10)

[Paranoid Android]

To bring this back to the poll question, it's interesting that believers in angels seem to outnumber non-believers by more than two-to-one.  I'm surprised at that figure.  Just thought I'd mention that

~ Regards, PA

[Mr Walker]

Helen of Annoy, on 21 January 2013 - 03:24 PM, said:

I always thought – if only I saw one with my own eyes, I’d know who they are... at least now I know I still wouldn’t know (My mind is still too startreky so I’d probably lean to the alien side.)

The pillar of light, you say. That’s interesting because both my great-grandmother and my grandmother had experiences with what great-grandma thought were vile and grandma thought were the angels.
In both events first the pillar of very bright light appeared. Then angel-like beings materialised out of it and communicated with my great-grandma. In grandma’s case, the pillar never produced any visible beings, but it led my grandma and other refugees to safety.
Good outcome of both events made me sure of one thing: whatever materializes from time to time in front of members of my family, it is not evil.
Angels or someone else, but demons definitely not.
(I don't know why I felt the need to mention that, probably someone was mentioning demons too earlier in the thread.)

I can identify with your grandparents experiences,  fully. In my first angelic experience /case, the "being" stayed 'within" the large and very bright column of light, but communicated verbally (not in my head but in the air around me) what it was going to do. Then it did it. It removed several years addiction to nicotine immediately,  permanently, and without any side effects, or withdrawal symtoms. I went from 30 cigarettes a day to none, without any negative effects on my metabolism, because the nicotine was physically  withdrawn from my body.

I have often had a talking, but invisible, presence lead me to safety in deadly situations, while "chatting away" offering guidance, comfort, and physical geographical directions to find a safe  conclusion. Other times angels have appeared looking like humans, only to dematerialise after dropping off a physical  object or a message, or physically guiding me out of danger.

As you point out, these "creatures of light" are known to humans throughout history, and are NOT limited to christian times or people.