147 replies to this topic

[karmakazi]

[AliveInDeath7]

Wow, this is crazy... I suppose that we dont have to teach actual facts anymore. Anything to prove that the bible is real.

[CRIPTIC CHAMELEON]

Then than there they're know no, wow I'm still stuck on which witch is which. lol

Edited by CRIPTIC CHAMELEON, 30 June 2012 - 11:08 PM.

[ShadowSot]

First I have to say this: Plesiosaurs were not ******* dinosaurs! They were marine reptiles! They were much freaking cooler to.

Ok, getting that off my chest... I went through the ACE program up to third grade. After transferring to a school that was still religious, but followed the standard education program here in the US, I found myself woefully unprepared for what was supposed to be my grade level. This has been a frequent criticism I've seen leveled against the ACE program as well from others, that it doesn't adequately prepare students even on such topics as math that don't run into religious conflicts.
(Unless the fundamentalism goes to the extent of forcing pi to equal 3, I didn't get that far.)

Darkwind, on 30 June 2012 - 01:12 PM, said:

We have this thing called the Bill of Rights. If you want to teach your children BS as part of your religion you can.  It is called free speech and religion. It is the price we pay for a so called free society.

We also have the seperation of powers, establishing that the government can not rule in favor of religion. While this is much ignored in the US, ACE programs are allowed in State schools over standard models.
Admittedly the standard model here in the US isn't the best, but the ACE program is worse.

[Mr Walker]

I only read the first page of this thread and maybe the tone changed but it worries me tha the suggestion is that a belief in creationism correlates to low intelligence or  lack of education.

I am an evolutioist because it is the only logical, scientific possibilty.
However creationism is A BELIEF system, despite how much some of its proponents try to argue it factually.

Beliefs are unrelated to inteligence and constructed from and for entirely differnt reasons and processes, than knowledge. If a belief is held strongly enough, it may displace knowledge. To some this is irrational, but if the belief system offers greater benefits to an individual than knowledge then it is a rational and profitable world view
Hence intelligence has nothing to do with belief. Belief is based on people's needs and priorities. Certainly an education my help someone with no strong beliefs confirm the scientific/evolutionary history of our planet, but it cannot and will not "convert " a person who has other strong reasons for belief no matter how intelligent that person is. For many the cahnace at immortality outweighs how the earth and life began as a priority. If you link a creator figure to eternal life then you have a very powerful motivator for belief in creation.
If a religious belief makes you happy and empowered then who can argue against it on a rational basis.

Edited by Mr Walker, 02 July 2012 - 01:02 AM.

[Englishgent]

Mr Walker, on 02 July 2012 - 01:00 AM, said:

I only read the first page of this thread and maybe the tone changed but it worries me tha the suggestion is that a belief in creationism correlates to low intelligence or  lack of education.

I am an evolutioist because it is the only logical, scientific possibilty.
However creationism is A BELIEF system, despite how much some of its proponents try to argue it factually.

Beliefs are unrelated to inteligence and constructed from and for entirely differnt reasons and processes, than knowledge. If a belief is held strongly enough, it may displace knowledge. To some this is irrational, but if the belief system offers greater benefits to an individual than knowledge then it is a rational and profitable world view
Hence intelligence has nothing to do with belief. Belief is based on people's needs and priorities. Certainly an education my help someone with no strong beliefs confirm the scientific/evolutionary history of our planet, but it cannot and will not "convert " a person who has other strong reasons for belief no matter how intelligent that person is. For many the cahnace at immortality outweighs how the earth and life began as a priority. If you link a creator figure to eternal life then you have a very powerful motivator for belief in creation.
If a religious belief makes you happy and empowered then who can argue against it on a rational basis.

First of all, sorry, I clicked the like button in error.
Secondly, Mr Walker, we are talking here about the education of our children.  Children should be educated with the truth, not some mistaken religous belief.
Children do not have strong religous beliefs. At least not until they are brainwashed into believing by the type of school being discussed in this topic.  Then they grow up and realise that what they were taught at school is incorrect. I would imagine that this would also cause them to reject the particular religion that was rammed down their throats whilst at school!
I agree with you that intelligence, and belief in a particular religion are not connected.  But one has to admit that in the face of all the evidence, to believe in creationism is a tad strange for somebody of intelligence.  In fact, I would go as far as to say it is complete ignorance. Something which should definitely not be taught in any school!

[Beany]

Imaginarynumber1, on 28 June 2012 - 10:49 PM, said:

This may be the funniest thing I've seen all week. Thanks for the post.

[Beany]

Eldorado, on 30 June 2012 - 11:54 AM, said:

It doen't bother me.  It disappoints.  University used to be for the gifted and the rich.  Nowadays it's for the rich and any other pampered brat that can talk.
But fear not, Lightly.  We are in good hands.......

"Is our children learning?" -- A US President (Yale University)

Can I guess who said that? Can I? Can I? This is a great thread, gad, you people are funny.

[Beany]

Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night.

Isaac Asimov

[Arbenol68]

Mr Walker, on 02 July 2012 - 01:00 AM, said:

I only read the first page of this thread and maybe the tone changed but it worries me tha the suggestion is that a belief in creationism correlates to low intelligence or  lack of education.

I am an evolutioist because it is the only logical, scientific possibilty.
However creationism is A BELIEF system, despite how much some of its proponents try to argue it factually.

Beliefs are unrelated to inteligence and constructed from and for entirely differnt reasons and processes, than knowledge. If a belief is held strongly enough, it may displace knowledge. To some this is irrational, but if the belief system offers greater benefits to an individual than knowledge then it is a rational and profitable world view
Hence intelligence has nothing to do with belief. Belief is based on people's needs and priorities. Certainly an education my help someone with no strong beliefs confirm the scientific/evolutionary history of our planet, but it cannot and will not "convert " a person who has other strong reasons for belief no matter how intelligent that person is. For many the cahnace at immortality outweighs how the earth and life began as a priority. If you link a creator figure to eternal life then you have a very powerful motivator for belief in creation.
If a religious belief makes you happy and empowered then who can argue against it on a rational basis.

Maybe you should have read through the posts. It seems to me most people here are commenting on the quality of education rather than calling creationists unintelligent. I referred to it as willful ignorance.

And whilst understand why they cling to such beliefs, I don't agree that there's anything rational about it.

Edited by Arbenol68, 02 July 2012 - 04:40 AM.

[Seeker79]

Well then, they might want to start by disproving carbon dateing. Or how fast top soils accumulate or fossilization occurres. That might be a start.

Edited by Seeker79, 02 July 2012 - 06:35 AM.

[Mr Walker]

Englishgent, on 02 July 2012 - 01:48 AM, said:

First of all, sorry, I clicked the like button in error.
Secondly, Mr Walker, we are talking here about the education of our children.  Children should be educated with the truth, not some mistaken religous belief.
Children do not have strong religous beliefs. At least not until they are brainwashed into believing by the type of school being discussed in this topic.  Then they grow up and realise that what they were taught at school is incorrect. I would imagine that this would also cause them to reject the particular religion that was rammed down their throats whilst at school!
I agree with you that intelligence, and belief in a particular religion are not connected.  But one has to admit that in the face of all the evidence, to believe in creationism is a tad strange for somebody of intelligence.  In fact, I would go as far as to say it is complete ignorance. Something which should definitely not be taught in any school!

Humans have both knowledge bases and beliefs. That is what makles us unique among known beings.

Second, children do not have to be taught beliefs. Once they are taught language they co- evolve their own beliefs as a part of the proces of thought and language development.

Third there is nothing wrong with beliefs per se and often many advantages to holding them.
There is no such thing as a mistaken belief while it remains a belief, merely more productive and less productive beliefs. For example no one can demonstrate that a belief in a god is a mistaken belief, any more than a general belief in extra terrestrial beings, and many people would laugh at anyone who attempted this, for a variety of good reasons.

One can teach a child just one belief, or teach them many beliefs. For examle all moralities and ethicla philosophicla systems are nothing more than humanbelief systems, based on he things we value. Those values are, themselves, only beliefs.

But only an individual can CHOOSE a belief and truly hold it, because that is what a belief is There are numerous articles on the formation and construction of human belief, from the fields of psychology to those of human neurology and speech.

I agree with you that, given the huge preponderance of evidence it  at first seems a bit strange for an intelligent educated individual to believe in a creator god and a created earth. But of course belief is not formulated using the same logic values and data as knowledge bases are.

Take for example a hypothetical university professor of mathematics who loses his/her children and or wife /husband (dont want o be sexist here in an accident or terorist event. A non believer must grieve and accepet the permanent loss of those loved ones.  However a believer may genuinely look forward to reuniting with both spouse and children. Whether this happens is irrelevant. One person has a much happier and improved quality of life. That makes, for tha t person, belief a viable and logical option. It costs nothing in real terms. Of course one can believe in many variants One does not have to connect ressurection with a creator god,it just happens that one of the most common forms of christianty does so. MAny modern christians believe in a literal physiclal after life while believing in the scientific process of evolution. In  that case there is no conflicting knowledge in the two positions.

Humans construct and hold beleif positions for very good and rational reasons/ They will not disappear as long as those reasons hold good and reasonable to the individuals concerned Do you believe in human induced global warming? Do you believe that we can have continued development and growth?  Do you believe that gravity is a universal constant  Do you believe we will ever observe higgs/ boson particles?
Lastly  i would  agree that believing creation science iss the equivalent to evolutionary science is illogical and probably delusional. Certainly it should never be taught as a science in govt schools.

However, one could accept readily every piece of evolutionary evidence, and still believe in creation, simply by rationalising that the creator god created all the evidences for evolution, perhaps as a test of belief in humans.  One can't logically argue against belief, because it is not formed on evidentiary premises. By its nature, it must be formed /created where no evidences exist.

Ps. I am shattered that you hit the like button in error. It's the first one ive had for a couple of weeks, but i will get over it

[Mr Walker]

Arbenol68, on 02 July 2012 - 04:39 AM, said:

Maybe you should have read through the posts. It seems to me most people here are commenting on the quality of education rather than calling creationists unintelligent. I referred to it as willful ignorance.

And whilst understand why they cling to such beliefs, I don't agree that there's anything rational about it.

I wrote that i was commenting on the first page, and there were some quite derogatory comments on that page.

If beliefs did not have a net positive outcome for humans we woud not create them. The constriuction of beliefs is rational for  at least two enduring reasons. First they are inarguable, as beliefs;  One cannot prove/disprove a belief (see my post above) and second, they often provide very real benefits for the believers both psychological/emotional, and physical such as extended and healthier lives. This is also inarguable given the evidences. A rational human being seeks all advantages and benefits they can in their life. If you cant see this, then you do not understand humanity very well or refuse to accept itsr  evolved nature.

Belies grow from our desire to make sense of our world and also from things like pattern recognition, self awareness of our sapience, and  the logical application of such abilities. They have long formed a logical/ protective basis for human behaviour in both prehistoric and historical societies. A religion or other belief may pass its use by date, but it will then evolve or adapt, or another will take its place.
To chose a  beneficial and productive belief system is not ignorant and arguably is less ignorant than refusing to chose one, given that belief exists where knowledge does not. Almost every human who ever lived operates on a complex set, or system, of beliefs about them selves and their world

[Beckys_Mom]

Beany, on 02 July 2012 - 02:44 AM, said:

Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night.

No that was Noah...even with his hangover he insisted on building an ark...

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 02 July 2012 - 10:14 AM.

[karmakazi]

Mr Walker, on 02 July 2012 - 08:49 AM, said:

Humans have both knowledge bases and beliefs. That is what makles us unique among known beings.

Frankly, what makes us appear unique amongst all the creatures of this planet is our inability to communicate with them and their apparent lack of intelligence.  We don't know if they have beliefs or knowledge bases beyond what they outwardly exhibit.

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Second, children do not have to be taught beliefs. Once they are taught language they co- evolve their own beliefs as a part of the proces of thought and language development.

Children who are not taught beliefs by *anyone* will not come up with what religion or creationism says on their own.  The fact is kids are exposed to all kinds of things their parents may not know about or be able to control.  That's why we've had people fight to get prayer out of schools in the US;  people who didn't follow a religion did not want their children exposed to it.

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Third there is nothing wrong with beliefs per se and often many advantages to holding them.

Holding a belief is like holding on to the nicest watermelon in the patch.  As long as you hold that watermelon, generations of watermelons can come and go, but you'll never know if there was a better one because you wouldn't let go of the one you're holding.   In terms of beliefs, as long as you're holding onto an idea and believing in it, you won't be able to see the truth.  For that, you have to let go of everything you think you know.

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Take for example a hypothetical university professor of mathematics who loses his/her children and or wife /husband (dont want o be sexist here in an accident or terorist event. A non believer must grieve and accepet the permanent loss of those loved ones.  However a believer may genuinely look forward to reuniting with both spouse and children. Whether this happens is irrelevant. One person has a much happier and improved quality of life. That makes, for tha t person, belief a viable and logical option. It costs nothing in real terms.

Where you see a person having a happier and improved quality of life, I see a person who is deluding themselves and incapable of truly coping with their grief.  Not coping with grief will ultimately cause unhappiness and may even cause a person to become completely absorbed in a fantasy world in their head, where they don't truly suffer any grief or guilt.

I have a problem with the idea that people shouldn't experience their grief, that they shouldn't work through it and find inner strength despite the adversity they've faced.  I've seen many turn to religion or belief in order to escape their grief, and over time they become shells.  I'm not saying this applies to everyone with belief, but I know it applies to some.  That is why I cannot agree that belief is a good thing across the board, there are many examples where it does great harm.

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Humans construct and hold beleif positions for very good and rational reasons/

Sometimes that may be the case, but much of the time it is not.  Sometimes humans form beliefs as a coping mechanism - in order to avoid or escape pain.  A person who has caused another harm can believe that they had no other choice, or any number of things to aleviate their guilt - but that belief would still be false and unhealthy.  Some people gravitate to religion because they want answers, forgiveness, or a feeling of belonging.

Edited by karmakazi, 02 July 2012 - 10:58 AM.