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Where Did God Come From?


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#1    AquilaChrysaetos

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 12:54 AM

Please forgive me for the brain strain, I'll try to keep this as simple as I can...
  • Logic tells us that in order for something to exist, it must have at least one verifiable property. Otherwise it is nothing. It does not exist.
  • We know for a fact that Nothingness exists. (Remember, nothingness is not a matter of time, since nothingness is the complete absence of time, space, matter, and energy; as well as all of the laws that govern the universe itself. A good way of thinking about it is, nothing is what rocks think about.)
  • However, Nothingness has one singularly exclusive property: It is infinate.
  • Therefore, ironically, even nothingnes itself is something.
  • What is that something? Because it has one lone property, that property in which it has is nothingness. (Ex. One lone quark from inside an atom has only one property: It is a quark. You cannot simplify it or give any further discription of what it is since it only has that property, therefore it simply is a quark.)
  • Therefore, infinty is nothingness. (Ex. I have one pencil, one paper, one desk, one chair; and yet all of these are singularly individual and seperate of one another. Collectively I would have a group of individual objects, each of which I just mentioned. However if I had zero pencils, zero papers, zero desks, zero chairs; and if I were to mention each object individually, I would collectively have the same thing: Nothing. However, the point is, there are an infinate number of possibilities for which to be nothing of. You could name me anything that is real or fantasy, big or small; unimaginably complex or unimaginably simple, in any order you like. If I have zero of it, all solutions remain the same, yet all possibilities remain open. Therefore there are an infinate number of possibilities, and yet there is nothing. Nothingness and infinity go hand in hand.)
  • Another way to describe infinity is everything, or every possibility. Therefore infinity can be taken to mean everything is possible.
  • Therefore, if everything is possible, then that must mean that infinate power, infinate wisdom, and infinate conscousness must be possible as well.
  • If nothingness possesses a property, then it is in fact, something. That something being everything. The term everything includes consciousness.
  • Therefore nothingness is conscious.
  • Since nothingness is also infinate, it must also possess infinate knowledge, wisdom, and power.
  • Therefore Nothing's consciousness possesses infinate knowledge, wisdom, and power.
  • In other words, Nothingness itself is what most of us would refer to as the typical depiction of a "Theistic God."
  • Due to many hard evidences supporting the Big Bang Theory, this theory states that the entire known universe (space, time, matter, and energy, as well as the perfectly fine-tuned intricate laws of physics that makes life possible) sprang into being literally out of nothing, with no apparent explanation at all.
  • Therefore simple logic and reasoning, coupled by several pieces of hard physiological evidences (Cosmological Argument, Teleological Argument / Anthropic Principle, Moral Argument), appear to strongly support not only the existance of a Theistic God, but of the Creation of the universe and divine design of life.
To me, the Theistic God is not only logical, but can be supported by evidence. Please keep in mind that it can't possibly be Polytheistic, because in order for that there must be individuality, and to be individual of another you must lack something the other has. Since God is infinate, he not only has everything, he is everything. This does not suggest Pantheism either, for despite the lack of time existance "before" the Big Bang, This God was not born out of or as a part of this physical universe, but was in fact never born at all, he simply was.

I don't have enough time or energy right now to go extensively into detail concerning each physiological argument (parenthesis in the last bullet) however I assure you they are quite compelling. Compelling enough for me at least to accept it as practically undeniable evidence. So hopefully this will settle the debate over "Where did God come from?"

Jesus Christ - Matthew 28:18-20 said:

"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

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#2    Mystic Crusader

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 12:59 AM

Where did god come from?  Easy, someone's imagination.

Thomas Paine wrote in The Age of Reason that “Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous execution, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God."
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#3    The Id3al Experience

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 02:10 AM

View PostAquilaChrysaetos, on 14 March 2013 - 12:54 AM, said:

Please forgive me for the brain strain, I'll try to keep this as simple as I can...
  • Logic tells us that in order for something to exist, it must have at least one verifiable property. Otherwise it is nothing. It does not exist.
  • We know for a fact that Nothingness exists. (Remember, nothingness is not a matter of time, since nothingness is the complete absence of time, space, matter, and energy; as well as all of the laws that govern the universe itself. A good way of thinking about it is, nothing is what rocks think about.)
  • However, Nothingness has one singularly exclusive property: It is infinate.
  • Therefore, ironically, even nothingnes itself is something.
  • What is that something? Because it has one lone property, that property in which it has is nothingness. (Ex. One lone quark from inside an atom has only one property: It is a quark. You cannot simplify it or give any further discription of what it is since it only has that property, therefore it simply is a quark.)
  • Therefore, infinty is nothingness. (Ex. I have one pencil, one paper, one desk, one chair; and yet all of these are singularly individual and seperate of one another. Collectively I would have a group of individual objects, each of which I just mentioned. However if I had zero pencils, zero papers, zero desks, zero chairs; and if I were to mention each object individually, I would collectively have the same thing: Nothing. However, the point is, there are an infinate number of possibilities for which to be nothing of. You could name me anything that is real or fantasy, big or small; unimaginably complex or unimaginably simple, in any order you like. If I have zero of it, all solutions remain the same, yet all possibilities remain open. Therefore there are an infinate number of possibilities, and yet there is nothing. Nothingness and infinity go hand in hand.)
  • Another way to describe infinity is everything, or every possibility. Therefore infinity can be taken to mean everything is possible.
  • Therefore, if everything is possible, then that must mean that infinate power, infinate wisdom, and infinate conscousness must be possible as well.
  • If nothingness possesses a property, then it is in fact, something. That something being everything. The term everything includes consciousness.
  • Therefore nothingness is conscious.
  • Since nothingness is also infinate, it must also possess infinate knowledge, wisdom, and power.
  • Therefore Nothing's consciousness possesses infinate knowledge, wisdom, and power.
  • In other words, Nothingness itself is what most of us would refer to as the typical depiction of a "Theistic God."
  • Due to many hard evidences supporting the Big Bang Theory, this theory states that the entire known universe (space, time, matter, and energy, as well as the perfectly fine-tuned intricate laws of physics that makes life possible) sprang into being literally out of nothing, with no apparent explanation at all.
  • Therefore simple logic and reasoning, coupled by several pieces of hard physiological evidences (Cosmological Argument, Teleological Argument / Anthropic Principle, Moral Argument), appear to strongly support not only the existance of a Theistic God, but of the Creation of the universe and divine design of life.
To me, the Theistic God is not only logical, but can be supported by evidence. Please keep in mind that it can't possibly be Polytheistic, because in order for that there must be individuality, and to be individual of another you must lack something the other has. Since God is infinate, he not only has everything, he is everything. This does not suggest Pantheism either, for despite the lack of time existance "before" the Big Bang, This God was not born out of or as a part of this physical universe, but was in fact never born at all, he simply was.

I don't have enough time or energy right now to go extensively into detail concerning each physiological argument (parenthesis in the last bullet) however I assure you they are quite compelling. Compelling enough for me at least to accept it as practically undeniable evidence. So hopefully this will settle the debate over "Where did God come from?"

Hate to break your logic but, If you give nothingness a property, it then becomes something, so logic would say, nothingness cannot exsit for giving it a property makes it something.

Also, you make an assertion that infinity means everything. This is also not correct. Infinity means a continum or something without any limit. So you could say there is an infinite amount of possibilities, however you cannot say infinite means everything.

However, there is another flaw - there is only a finite amount of possibillities as a possibility is a ratio. and logicaly you cannot have 1:infinify ratio. It is logically impossiable.

Kind Regards,
Me :)

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#4    Ashotep

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 02:20 AM

Who knows.


#5    Royal

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 03:15 AM

Infinity is the everything of one thing at a time, not the everything of everything," everything is possible" is in and of itself an impossibility. Nothing is only something in that it is devoid of anything,and Nothing can be infinite until it becomes something.Consciouseness can be infinite but it cannot be everything.In the beginning there was infinite nothingness that became something, and thats everything we know.

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#6    StarMountainKid

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 04:44 AM

"Even the God of Spring does not know from where the flowers come." I think this is a Zen or Taoist saying.

If there were a God, it probably wouldn't know its origin either. "I Am," it would say pompously. I guess it would figure that's all you need to know. That God may be hiding some relevant information, however.

We all know how devious and enigmatic Gods like to be. They seem to enjoy keeping their secrets to themselves. Makes them appear more mysterious than they may actually be, and it's always a good marketing strategy for them to keep their worshipers uninformed about such matters.

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#7    White Crane Feather

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 04:58 AM

There is no evidence that the big bang created the vacume. Therefore the potential for the vacuume to carry a signal ( time). This notion that time and space were created at the BB is misunderstood. The "space" between things in that if everything were created then it certainly was, but not the vaccume itself. Nor time. For there to be no time before time, this implies sequencing therefore time certainly has to exist for all time. Or rather time simply dosnt exist at all other than a recognition of change. We don't understand pre big bang conditions so we say "time as we know it" didn't exist. Despite popular belief this does not imply that there was not a before.  My personal belief is that it all started with a rare quantum tunneling event that is fairly simple to understand. This also implies that somewhere else deep in the vaccume it is probably happening again.

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#8    pallidin

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 06:20 AM

Well, I hope there is a God, else I'm in deep doo doo when I die, with no conciousness, no nothing.

I choose to believe in God, though I offer no "proof"

Eases my troubled mind, I guess.


#9    ChloeB

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 09:26 AM

View PostStarMountainKid, on 14 March 2013 - 04:44 AM, said:

"Even the God of Spring does not know from where the flowers come." I think this is a Zen or Taoist saying.

If there were a God, it probably wouldn't know its origin either. "I Am," it would say pompously. I guess it would figure that's all you need to know. That God may be hiding some relevant information, however.

We all know how devious and enigmatic Gods like to be. They seem to enjoy keeping their secrets to themselves. Makes them appear more mysterious than they may actually be, and it's always a good marketing strategy for them to keep their worshipers uninformed about such matters.

Maybe "God" is not the creator of the universe, but it's ultimate outcome, maybe God is not hiding any relevent information or keeping secrets, but realizing and learning them through humanity as the nervous system of an ever evolving global brain developing self-consciousness just as humans evolved to, but on a grander scale.


"The universe may grow like a giant brain, according to a new computer simulation.
The results, published Nov. 16 in the journal Nature's Scientific Reports, suggest that some undiscovered, fundamental laws may govern the growth of systems large and small, from the electrical firing between brain cellsand growth of social networksPosted Image to the expansion of galaxies.
"Natural growth dynamics are the same for different real networks, like the Internet or the brain or social networks," said study co-author Dmitri Krioukov, a physicist at the UniversityPosted Image of California San Diego.
The new study suggests a single fundamental law of nature may govern these networks, said physicist Kevin Bassler of the University of Houston, who was not involved in the study."


When the team compared the universe's history with growth of social networks and brain circuits, they found all the networks expanded in similar ways: They balanced links between similar nodes with ones that already had many connections. For instance, a cat lover surfing the Internet may visit mega-sites such as Google or Yahoo, but will also browse cat fancier websites or YouTube kitten videos. In the same way, neighboring brain cellslike to connect, but neurons also link to such "Google brain cells" that are hooked up to loads of other brain cells.

The eerie similarity between networks large and small is unlikely to be a coincidence, Krioukov said.
"For a physicist it's an immediate signal that there is some missing understanding of how nature works," Krioukov said.
It's more likely that some unknown law governs the way networks grow and change, from the smallest brain cells to the growth of mega-galaxies, Krioukov said.
"This result suggests that maybe we should start looking for it," Krioukov told LiveScience.

http://www.nbcnews.c...e/#.UUGWt1ehyXm

Edited by ChloeB, 14 March 2013 - 09:44 AM.

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#10    Frank Merton

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 11:53 AM

God as we have Him is a Jewish idea used to turn their local jealous tribal deity into someone more important, and they couldn't figure out where to stop magnifying Him and so didn't.

The original idea of deities comes from animist ideas that thinks, "I have a personality, so why shouldn't the universe be populated with things like me, hence rivers and mountains and animals and so on all have personalities, although obviously their personalities are a bit different, and sometimes dangerous."


#11    libstaK

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 12:01 PM

View PostStarMountainKid, on 14 March 2013 - 04:44 AM, said:

"Even the God of Spring does not know from where the flowers come." I think this is a Zen or Taoist saying.

If there were a God, it probably wouldn't know its origin either. "I Am," it would say pompously. I guess it would figure that's all you need to know. That God may be hiding some relevant information, however.

We all know how devious and enigmatic Gods like to be. They seem to enjoy keeping their secrets to themselves. Makes them appear more mysterious than they may actually be, and it's always a good marketing strategy for them to keep their worshipers uninformed about such matters.
Why would God say "I am" pompously.  When did stating a fact in it's most simple form become an act of "pompousness"?  And do we know God is devious and enigmatic?  Or do we know that the "Gods made in mans image (mind) are given devious and enigmatic properties by the men who created them?

To know God is devious and enigmatic would require us to have a personal relationship with God and then come to that conclusion ...... otherwise we are just assuming for the sake of some convenience that what we don't understand about God is due to a deliberate act of deception on his part.

Also if they (or just God) are less mysterious than they/he appear/s to be, it follows they/he are/is regular or known - yet God is not a "known" entity, he is in fact a mystery.  He will be less of a mystery to those who know something of him and more of a mystery to those who know little (but surmise much?).  I fail to see how this constitutes a conscious act of trying to "appear more mysterious" on his part tbh - it remains possible and feasible that he just is a mystery to our current level of conscious awareness/intellect.

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In you is hidden the treasure of treasures, Oh man, know thyself and you shall know the Universe and the Gods."

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#12    spayneuter

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 05:37 PM

I once read that God is a theory that begins at birth.  Parents are Gods to babies.  Then they spend the rest of their lives searching for and believing in a God or Gods.

What a man dwells on, he becomes.

#13    AquilaChrysaetos

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 08:13 PM

View PostThe Id3al Experience, on 14 March 2013 - 02:10 AM, said:

Hate to break your logic but, If you give nothingness a property, it then becomes something, so logic would say, nothingness cannot exsit for giving it a property makes it something.

Also, you make an assertion that infinity means everything. This is also not correct. Infinity means a continum or something without any limit. So you could say there is an infinite amount of possibilities, however you cannot say infinite means everything.

However, there is another flaw - there is only a finite amount of possibillities as a possibility is a ratio. and logicaly you cannot have 1:infinify ratio. It is logically impossiable.

Kind Regards,
Me :)

Actually you didn't break my logic, rather, you supported it. My point exactly is that nothingness doesn't exist. Only God does.

The reason why I say this means nothing is everything, is because based on my logic, due to nothingness possessing a property, it is something. Due to infinity meaning all possibilities, that something of which it is is everything.

As for the finite amount of possibilities argument, I happen to disagree. Things may be finite in this physical universe due to it's empirical laws, however outside the laws of this universe, everything does become possible. Therefore my original stance.

Jesus Christ - Matthew 28:18-20 said:

"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

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#14    Mystic Crusader

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 08:34 PM

View PostAquilaChrysaetos, on 14 March 2013 - 08:13 PM, said:

Actually you didn't break my logic, rather, you supported it. My point exactly is that nothingness doesn't exist. Only God does.

The reason why I say this means nothing is everything, is because based on my logic, due to nothingness possessing a property, it is something. Due to infinity meaning all possibilities, that something of which it is is everything.

As for the finite amount of possibilities argument, I happen to disagree. Things may be finite in this physical universe due to it's empirical laws, however outside the laws of this universe, everything does become possible. Therefore my original stance.

Like black being a color?

Thomas Paine wrote in The Age of Reason that “Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous execution, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God."
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#15    AquilaChrysaetos

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 09:41 PM

View PostHavocWing, on 14 March 2013 - 08:34 PM, said:

Like black being a color?

:huh: ... Not making the connection...

Jesus Christ - Matthew 28:18-20 said:

"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

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