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When Is It Excessive Force Anymore?


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#61    lightly

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 12:47 PM

http://vitals.nbcnew...medomain=usnews

^This NBC news version of the story  doesn't definitely state that the kid was 'ON'  anything.

His mother said this : "He was wearing no clothes and he was obviously not in his right mind," Bonnie Collar said.

A university spokesman declined to say (LOL)  Saturday whether Collar was under the influence of alcohol or drugs.


" a naked student at the University of South Alabama was fatally shot in the chest by a campus security guard"

........... Campus security guards, as is the case at our local community college, are usually students pursuing a law enforcement degree... it's possible he was not a real "COP"   yet.

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#62    Rafterman

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 01:10 PM

View PostProfessor Buzzkill, on 09 October 2012 - 06:43 PM, said:

Oh, i missed the bit in the article where is said he was eating another human. As far as i can tell he was threatening a police officer by "charging" naked at him. I am pretty sure that shouldn't be a crime punishable by death, but i don't live in that society. Each to their own.

I was simply countering the previous point that being nude somehow implies that you aren't dangerous.  Try to keep up in the future.

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#63    Jack Griffin

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 01:13 PM

View Postlightly, on 10 October 2012 - 12:47 PM, said:

........... Campus security guards, as is the case at our local community college, are usually students pursuing a law enforcement degree... it's possible he was not a real "COP"   yet.

Wrong. Do you really think they are just giving untrained kids guns and telling them to go serve the public trust? C'mon, let's use a little critical thinking here.


#64    Rafterman

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 01:17 PM

View Postlightly, on 10 October 2012 - 12:47 PM, said:

http://vitals.nbcnew...medomain=usnews

^This NBC news version of the story  doesn't definitely state that the kid was 'ON'  anything.

His mother said this : "He was wearing no clothes and he was obviously not in his right mind," Bonnie Collar said.

A university spokesman declined to say (LOL)  Saturday whether Collar was under the influence of alcohol or drugs.


" a naked student at the University of South Alabama was fatally shot in the chest by a campus security guard"

........... Campus security guards, as is the case at our local community college, are usually students pursuing a law enforcement degree... it's possible he was not a real "COP"   yet.

That's couldn't be further from the truth - I seriously doubt the guards are you local community college are armed.

In every case I'm familiar with, an armed university police officer is a duly sworned police officer - no different than a county sheriff, local LEO, etc.  And certainly if they are armed, they have completed the same firearms training as any other LEO in that jurisdiction.  Here in New York State, state university officers are essentially state police with limited jurisdiction.

From the USA website:

All sworn officers have completed the Minimum Standards of Peace Officers for the State of Alabama (A.P.O.S.T. certification). University Police have full arrest powers granted by the State of Alabama (Title 16-22-1 and 16-22-2). The department offers community services including patrol functions, investigations, event security, and training.

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#65    Stellar

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 04:09 PM

View PostMaestro, on 09 October 2012 - 04:21 PM, said:

Why is that? This coming from your numerous years employed as an LEO conducting felony arrests on violent suspects?

This is coming from my numerous years of experience as a soldier who has to obey something called Rules of Engagement.

A police officer's job is to serve and protect the people. It's to maintain life, not take it away unnecessarily. A police officer should be capable of handling an unarmed and naked individual without the need to kill them. A police officer should have enough training with his less than lethal weapons to not have to use lethal force against an unarmed person.

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#66    Stellar

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 04:29 PM

Quote

I think you are missing the plot here.... This guy came to the campus Police department banging on windows... the officer came out... He charged the officer several times and the officer retreated, with weapon drawn, several times... the suspect was warned.. told to stop... he was non compliant and beligerant. Drugs or not, this person was a threat to life or limb. Some one who was not a threat, would have stopped when seeing a police officer telling him to STOP while he had his weapon drawn...


Anyone can be a threat, unarmed, with their bare hands. A police officer should be capable of dealing with this unarmed threat without resorting to the use of lethal force.

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#67    Jack Griffin

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 06:20 PM

View PostStellar, on 10 October 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

This is coming from my numerous years of experience as a soldier who has to obey something called Rules of Engagement.

A police officer's job is to serve and protect the people. It's to maintain life, not take it away unnecessarily. A police officer should be capable of handling an unarmed and naked individual without the need to kill them. A police officer should have enough training with his less than lethal weapons to not have to use lethal force against an unarmed person.

So no then. A combat soldier is as close to a police officer as is a garbage man. A peace officer is in no way, shape or form akin to a forward theater operator, and you know that. The ROE do not apply in this circumstance.

I understand your outrage at an unarmed American catching a bullet in the chest from a public servant, but this situation is not combat. It's a drugged up former wrestler who had already committed three felony assaults in the act of committing a fourth. It's terrible, but could have been much worse.


#68    Dredimus

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 06:49 PM

View PostStellar, on 10 October 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

This is coming from my numerous years of experience as a soldier who has to obey something called Rules of Engagement.

A police officer's job is to serve and protect the people. It's to maintain life, not take it away unnecessarily. A police officer should be capable of handling an unarmed and naked individual without the need to kill them. A police officer should have enough training with his less than lethal weapons to not have to use lethal force against an unarmed person.

So.. you bring up RoE... but forget what you are taught in combat training from day one of BRM... If you are working a gate in Iraq of Afghanistan and you tell some one to stop.. and they keep moving... they suddenly go from target to threat, no matter what they are wearing/driving or if they are walking... and you utilitze what ever force needed to STOP that threat....


It kills me how people are demonizing the cop for doing his job yet leaving out the fact that this whacked out guy on LSD attacked two couples, tried to bite and eat them.. and then attacked a Police Officer... blows my mind.

Oh... and as far as The Arms training goes.. doesnt matter if the guy was a cop or a security officer, they have the same training in the State of Alabama as far as fire arms go... the training requirements are put down and strictly enforced by State Security Regulatory Board. As an officer or guard you have to maintain your training annually and be down range often. I currently hold a license and certification from the regulatory board in Alabama.


#69    glorybebe

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 07:41 PM

I agree.  None of us were there in the officer's shoes.  It was a split desicion that he had to make.  And IMO, the innocent citizens not only have a need for protection, but a right to be protected.  If a guy is going to be out of control enough to attack an armed officer, then in the safety of the public he needs to be stopped by any means necessary.  I am so tired of perps being the underdogs.  They did something illegal.  We deserve to be protected from them.

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#70    and then

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:03 PM

Local public opinion in a SOLIDLY CONSERVATIVE community is strongly in support of the young man's family on this.  A former Lieutenant Governor of the State of Alabama is acting as attorney for the family.  I find it ironic that I'm seem to be on the wrong side on this.  In nearly 100% of such cases in past I would have immediately and blindly taken the officer's words as gospel.  Not so sure I will again.  This campus police officer responded to a naked, aggressive student with the physique of a young woman by going outdoors without his pepper spray or his baton which are required equipment according to USA police rules.  He had time and space to back away from the threat and had even called for back up before exiting the building.  Some of this is caught on CCTV but the actual shooting is not.  I think the shooting was wrong.  I think the cop was poorly trained and unprofessional.  I think this will be proven upon investigation and many rules will be reviewed and training will be enhanced.  The officer in question made a mistake due to poor training.  I don't think he should be fired or vilified in public.  I think the university should step up and take responsibility.  The officer should be retrained and while that goes on he should not be allowed to carry a weapon or go on patrol.

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#71    Stellar

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 10:16 PM

Quote

So no then. A combat soldier is as close to a police officer as is a garbage man.


Right... there's no similarities whatsoever. Thats why we sometimes train with the police :rolleyes:

Quote


The ROE do not apply in this circumstance.


Clearly ROEs and minimal force does not apply in this circumstance. Obviously a police officer can just shoot an unarmed man. No big deal. :rolleyes:

Quote

So.. you bring up RoE... but forget what you are taught in combat training from day one of BRM... If you are working a gate in Iraq of Afghanistan and you tell some one to stop.. and they keep moving... they suddenly go from target to threat, no matter what they are wearing/driving or if they are walking... and you utilitze what ever force needed to STOP that threat....


Please spare me the lecture on what I "forgot". I have forgotten none of that. The reason we shoot (a warning shot first) and then shoot to kill when someone doesnt stop is BECAUSE we don't know what they are wearing. Suicide vests are a threat overseas. Can you claim this naked man was wearing a bomb vest?

Furthermore, theres a reason we learn hand to hand combat in the military. There are many occasions when an individual is uncooperative and yet we have to restrain them --- NOT shoot and kill them.


Quote


It kills me how people are demonizing the cop for doing his job yet leaving out the fact that this whacked out guy on LSD attacked two couples, tried to bite and eat them.. and then attacked a Police Officer... blows my mind.


I'm not blaming the police officer for shooting. I'm blaming the police department/academy/whoever trains them for turning out police officers that feel that they can't handle an unarmed individual running at them without the need to resort to deadly force.

I guess whoever resists arrest should also be shot, from here on in, right? Clearly they're not listening to the police officer, and thus pose a threat.

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#72    lightly

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:13 AM

View PostRafterman, on 10 October 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:

That's couldn't be further from the truth - I seriously doubt the guards are you local community college are armed.

In every case I'm familiar with, an armed university police officer is a duly sworned police officer - no different than a county sheriff, local LEO, etc.  And certainly if they are armed, they have completed the same firearms training as any other LEO in that jurisdiction.  Here in New York State, state university officers are essentially state police with limited jurisdiction.

From the USA website:

All sworn officers have completed the Minimum Standards of Peace Officers for the State of Alabama (A.P.O.S.T. certification). University Police have full arrest powers granted by the State of Alabama (Title 16-22-1 and 16-22-2). The department offers community services including patrol functions, investigations, event security, and training.

I didn't say the campus security guys (here) were armed.  In fact i know they are not.  I said they were law enforcement students•


but.. ok,   since it is Alabama UNIVERSITY ... i suppose it was stupid of me to wonder if the 'cop' may not have been a real 'cop'.  

    when is it excessive force?   whenever it's more than needed.    Like when we see some guy on the ground unarmed and he's getting the  Put your hands down!  WAP! WAP! WAP!   Put your hands down! WAP! WAP* WAP!  put your hands down!  WAP! KICK!*WAP!   ..treatment.

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#73    Bavarian Raven

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 01:55 AM

I dont think anyone has mentioned the simple fact that if this young man hadn't decided to take those drugs - drugs that do horrible things to you and make you do horrible things - he would not have been shot. ;) People need to take responsibility for their actions - you do stupid things (take drugs, etc), you must be prepared to suffer the consequences.

Edited by Bavarian Raven, 11 October 2012 - 01:57 AM.


#74    and then

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 02:30 AM

View PostBavarian Raven, on 11 October 2012 - 01:55 AM, said:

I dont think anyone has mentioned the simple fact that if this young man hadn't decided to take those drugs - drugs that do horrible things to you and make you do horrible things - he would not have been shot. ;) People need to take responsibility for their actions - you do stupid things (take drugs, etc), you must be prepared to suffer the consequences.
What you say is undeniable but I say if this cop had taken the time to pick up his pepper spray the young man might be alive today.

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#75    Bavarian Raven

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 02:32 AM

Quote

What you say is undeniable but I say if this cop had taken the time to pick up his pepper spray the young man mightbe alive today.

Or, the cop could be dead plus anyone else the young man attacked.  :unsure2:
Bottomline is, the young man put himself into this situation and he suffered the consequences.





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