12 replies to this topic

[Karlis]

Mr. Morsi has not yet issued the order, but martial law could last at least till February

Struggling to subdue continuing street protests, the government of President Mohamed Morsi has approved legislation reimposing martial law by calling on the armed forces to keep order and authorizing soldiers to arrest civilians, Egypt’s state media reported Saturday.

Even the possibility presents an extraordinary role reversal: an elected president who spent decades opposing Mr. Mubarak’s use of martial law to detain Islamists — a former leader of the Muslim Brotherhood who himself spent months in jail under the “emergency law” — is poised to resort to similar tactics to control unrest and violence from secular groups.
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[meryt-tetisheri]

The article misrepresents the situation in Egypt. It is not a struggle between secularists and Islamists, but between the MB and its junior Salafi partner, and the rest of Egyptians.

Quote

But the battle in Egypt is indeed one between a democracy that reflects the country’s political diversity and a remodeled authoritarianism, led by the Muslim Brothers and their allies, that seeks to circumscribe it.

http://merip.org/why...sters-are-right

The violence has been directed by the MB militias and supporters against unarmed civilians. Just today, three MB members were arrested while transporting arms in Heliopolis, another man was also arrested carrying explosives and guns while heading to join the Salafis besieging the Media Production City. A card carrying FJP member was among those who were arrested attacking one of their own offices. Demonstrators were attacked and tortured by MB...The aggression of Mursi's groups against protestors is documented in the links attached to the following:
https://www.facebook...&type=1

Mursi turned out to be a worst version of Mubarak, but with a beard. Did the emergency law work for Mubarak?

Edited by meryt-tetisheri, 08 December 2012 - 02:42 PM.

[Yamato]

It would seem to me that all the talk of democracy rings hollow when every time there's an election one can't respect the results.

Looks time for someone to remind me that Islam and democracy aren't compatible.   So what, Christianize Egypt?   I think that Muslims should decide for themselves what form of government is best for them.  It's none of the US taxpayer's business and I'd really love to stop chasing bad money with good and wasting it on impossible dreams when there are plenty of better uses in the world to deploy that capital.

Americans are horribly displeased with the results of our elections and our body of elected officials too.   Democracy is overrated.   Two wolves and a lamb voting on who to have for dinner.   Liberty is under-appreciated.  When one is in the business of defending one government to the exclusion of another, there's always a million excuses in the devilish details why liberty should take a back seat.   Lame excuses, but endless ones nevertheless.

[MichaelW]

Democracy isn't at fault here, Yam. Only you would believe such idiocies.

The fault lies with Morsi. He tried to change too much too soon too fast and he's copping the result of his power-grab. Yes, the Egyptian Constitution probably needed a good going over, but Morsi shouldn't have given himself that much power that soon after the revolution. It's looking as if the proud people who sacrificed themselves in Tahrir Square during the revolution died for nothing.

Morsi should talk with the people whom he pissed off to try to sort out a course of where Egypt should go next, not charge blindly into an uncertain future.

[Yamato]

MichaelW, on 08 December 2012 - 11:34 PM, said:

Democracy isn't at fault here, Yam. Only you would believe such idiocies.

The fault lies with Morsi. He tried to change too much too soon too fast and he's copping the result of his power-grab. Yes, the Egyptian Constitution probably needed a good going over, but Morsi shouldn't have given himself that much power that soon after the revolution. It's looking as if the proud people who sacrificed themselves in Tahrir Square during the revolution died for nothing.

Morsi should talk with the people whom he pissed off to try to sort out a course of where Egypt should go next, not charge blindly into an uncertain future.

Of course democracy isn't to blame here.  Never said it was.  It doesn't matter to me what form of government these foreign countries have.  That's an interest of the people I'm disagreeing with on a daily basis regarding US foreign policy.   This liberal Wilsonian nonsense that the US is the beacon of democracy for the world.

[and then]

MichaelW, on 08 December 2012 - 11:34 PM, said:

Democracy isn't at fault here, Yam. Only you would believe such idiocies.

The fault lies with Morsi. He tried to change too much too soon too fast and he's copping the result of his power-grab. Yes, the Egyptian Constitution probably needed a good going over, but Morsi shouldn't have given himself that much power that soon after the revolution. It's looking as if the proud people who sacrificed themselves in Tahrir Square during the revolution died for nothing.

Morsi should talk with the people whom he pissed off to try to sort out a course of where Egypt should go next, not charge blindly into an uncertain future.

I think it might be too early to dismiss the sacrifices of those freedom seekers.  They seem to have come from an unending supply of brethren who want the same thing still.  And I respectfully challenge the idea that Morsi is acting blindly.  I think he rushed, yes, but I think it's exactly because of those freedom seekers that he felt hurried.  He knew that the window for making the kinds of changes he wants was a brief one and would be closed by the light shining on that document his party created.  So he took a chance - and it seems to be blowing up in his face.  I just pray that the MB are not as strong as the rebels of Syria or this could be another bloodbath in a region that desperately needs some breathing space.

[meryt-tetisheri]

and then, on 09 December 2012 - 01:08 AM, said:

I think it might be too early to dismiss the sacrifices of those freedom seekers.  They seem to have come from an unending supply of brethren who want the same thing still.  And I respectfully challenge the idea that Morsi is acting blindly.  I think he rushed, yes, but I think it's exactly because of those freedom seekers that he felt hurried.  He knew that the window for making the kinds of changes he wants was a brief one and would be closed by the light shining on that document his party created.  So he took a chance - and it seems to be blowing up in his face.  I just pray that the MB are not as strong as the rebels of Syria or this could be another bloodbath in a region that desperately needs some breathing space.

I agree with you, Mursi did not rush blindly, he acted with deliberation. However, the constitution draft he is still insisting on pushing through was rushed: more than 200 articles were written in a 17 hours all night marathon session. What came out is malformed and while it expands the powers of the president even more than the previous one, it opens the door for the state to limit individual freedoms. For example, it states that citizens have the right to freedom of belief, but another article limits the exercise of this freedom to Muslims, Christians and Jews, leaving Baha’is, atheists…etc. disenfranchised.  It guarantees freedom of expression, but the state and ‘society’ are to act to protect the morality and traditions of society. This leaves the door open for a morality police like in SA as well giving the state a free hand in defining what falls under the label of acceptable freedom of expression. All citizens are equal, but the only time women were mentioned was in the context of thier role as 'mother and housewife'. The ban on marriage of children which existed in the previous constitution has been cancelled as well as that which banned slavery.

As for the office of president, holders of dual citizenship may run for office. Once leaving office, the president becomes a member of the Senate for life, and he may not be put on trial except in flagrante delicto. He has the right to dissolve Parliament in the event it objects to the formation of the government twice, without restrictions. He may declare the state of emergency with the approval of the cabinet, and then it is submitted to the parliament, not the other way round. There is no mention of the independence of the judiciary. He chooses members of the Constitutional Court as well as the chairmen of all regulatory bodies whose jobs it would be to supervise the government. The judiciary supervision of elections has been cancelled, to be replaced by a commission without specifying the criteria for the choice of its members….

Is it any wonder that there is a general outcry against this constitution?

[ExpandMyMind]

Egypt crisis: President Morsi annuls decree

http://www.bbc.co.uk...e-east-20655412

Anyone else surprised?

[and then]

If the vote is rushed through then I am guessing that the MB are confident in how it will go.  If people boycott then the MB wins.  If people turn out in massive, angry numbers against it then the MB probably STILL "wins" with the right people counting the votes.  Sounds like Iran in '08.  The military doesn't seem to have openly chosen a side yet.  IF the Obama admin would exert even a tiny amount of pressure now, then things might have a chance of remaining democratic there.  I'm not holding my breath.

[MichaelW]

ExpandMyMind, on 09 December 2012 - 03:32 AM, said:

Egypt crisis: President Morsi annuls decree

http://www.bbc.co.uk...e-east-20655412

Anyone else surprised?

A little, but it was inevitable that the pressure would get to him. Baby steps were needed in such a sensitive time. This would hopefully calm everyone down.

[and then]

MichaelW, on 09 December 2012 - 03:59 AM, said:

A little, but it was inevitable that the pressure would get to him. Baby steps were needed in such a sensitive time. This would hopefully calm everyone down.

But his powers were grabbed primarily so that no one could stop this referendum from being rushed through.  That hasn't changed at all.

[meryt-tetisheri]

ExpandMyMind, on 09 December 2012 - 03:32 AM, said:

Egypt crisis: President Morsi annuls decree

http://www.bbc.co.uk...e-east-20655412

Anyone else surprised?

It has been annulled, but not retroactively. The new decree which replaces it has not won over the opposition. The whole thing is becoming like bazaar haggling!
   http://www.egyptinde...ration-replaced

[meryt-tetisheri]

and then, on 09 December 2012 - 03:59 AM, said:

If the vote is rushed through then I am guessing that the MB are confident in how it will go.  If people boycott then the MB wins.  If people turn out in massive, angry numbers against it then the MB probably STILL "wins" with the right people counting the votes.  Sounds like Iran in '08.  The military doesn't seem to have openly chosen a side yet.  IF the Obama admin would exert even a tiny amount of pressure now, then things might have a chance of remaining democratic there.  I'm not holding my breath.

You got it right! Pre 2011 elections were notorious for their 99% results. The last presidential elections were rife with violations. As for the Obama administration, they bought whatever the MB delegation sold them. The point they are missing is that the opposition is largely a 'grassroot movement', not an organized party coalition. If its leaders fail to voice the goals of the youth who are demonstrating, they will simply be left behind.
http://takingnote.bl...on/?ref=opinion