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Evolution - really?


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#16    Emma_Acid

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 12:35 PM

View PostBatfastard, on 30 August 2012 - 10:12 AM, said:

Now before I start I am in no way a 'Creationist', but neither do I hold the belief that we evolved from primates.

The evolution theory is now being taught in most schools as accepted fact, and that to me is a tad worrying - where is the evidence?

First off, saying "belief in evolution" is meaningless. About as meaningless as saying "belief in gravity". It has nothing to do with belief. You either understand evolution or you don't.

There is more evidence for evolution than almost any other area of science. Read Dawkins' The Greatest Show on Earth for a comprehensive run through of the mountain of evidence we have.


View PostBatfastard, on 30 August 2012 - 10:12 AM, said:

DNA evidence I hear people shout, now the way I see it Scientists who believe in evolution manipulate the data to support evolution, when in reality, DNA data support the obvious and distinctive categorization of life that is commonly observed in the fossil record and in existing life forms. There is, in fact, a clear demarcation between each created kind (humans, chimps, mice, chickens, dogs, etc.), and there is no blending together or observed transition from one kind of animal to another.

You obviously don't understand how genetics works. All living things have a genetic sequence, represented by a string of letters. Over 95% of the genetic sequences of humans and chimps are in exactly the same order. This can only have happened if we shared a common ancestor in the past.


View PostBatfastard, on 30 August 2012 - 10:12 AM, said:

All created kinds exhibit a certain amount of genetic variability within their grouping while still maintaining specific genetic boundaries. In other words, one kind does not change into another, either in the fossil record or in observations of living organisms.

For someone who claims not to be a creationist, you sure as hell sound like you've been reading their websites.


View PostBatfastard, on 30 August 2012 - 10:12 AM, said:

Another thing is that surely for the human species to evolve from a primate then this process must have taken millions of years, and there would be varying degrees of intertwining between the species over this long period of time, but as yet scientists cannot show one set of fossilised remains showing this primate/human crossover species, a species that must have lived and evolved over many millions of years.

They can show this, and they have. Ignoring the evidence doesn't mean it's not there.


View PostBatfastard, on 30 August 2012 - 10:12 AM, said:

If we evolved from primates in a single, linear progression, as is claimed by evolutionists the world over, why is it that it would appear that there were a minimum of FOUR seperate hominids all co-existing in Africa approximately 2 million years ago?

Because evolution isn't a straight line, its a many-branched tree. All you're showing here is that you haven't bothered doing any actual research.


View PostBatfastard, on 30 August 2012 - 10:12 AM, said:

Now I am not saying I know what the alternative theory is, but I am just uncomfortable with my children being taught something as fact, when it appears that this is nothing more than guesswork.

And here we go. You really haven't done your homework have you? Evolution is about as far as science can possibly get from guesswork.

Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's not true.

"Science is the least subjective form of deduction" ~ A. Mulder

#17    Hasina

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 12:40 PM

Guys, I've seen the evidence, you can believe or not believe in gravity, how else does Wile E. Coyote stay up in the air until he looks down? That's evidence! Right?

Each fossil that's discovered is a static image of one animal out of a bajillionmillion (that's a number, right?) that have come and gone. I read somewhere that 99% of all species that existed are extinct. The species we have today are their shadows, kinda. They're what has been building up and surviving, and they'll pass on into the dark of history, some will never be known by the future if we lose records or something like that. Imagine in a million years, if we become a star faring civilization. We'll fragment into a thousand species ourselves, and all them may never know of dinosaurs.

Edited by Hasina, 30 August 2012 - 12:41 PM.

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#18    Doctor manhattan

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 01:08 PM

maybe you should go back to school, i dont think you were paying much attention for some reason.


#19    HerNibs

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 01:30 PM

Time to dust this off again...yeah, it's in German, just follow the lines.

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#20    Anonymous User

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 01:41 PM

Not to pile on to the negative feedback you've already been given, that isn't my intentions here.. but by the looks of it you're inferring a view of "evolution" that can be picked up by viewing the common "ape to human" images (see below [1]) rather than actually having tried to understand what the evidence tells us. The major indication of this is you're viewing the process as liner, i.e one singular animal that constantly morphs into 'another' one. Animals are able to change in that sense, but evolution in the sense you're "arguing" against doesn't actually state a liner process is how new species arise. Where you've got "as evolutionists all around the world state" from, I have absolutely no idea.

[1] http://blogs.sundaym...evolution-1.jpg

Others have already point out your errors so I won't do the same, but I suggest checking out these websites which should answer any of your further questions:

http://www.talkorigi...-evolution.html
http://evolution.ber.../article/evo_01


#21    FurthurBB

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 02:12 PM

View PostBatfastard, on 30 August 2012 - 10:12 AM, said:

Now before I start I am in no way a 'Creationist', but neither do I hold the belief that we evolved from primates.

The evolution theory is now being taught in most schools as accepted fact, and that to me is a tad worrying - where is the evidence?

DNA evidence I hear people shout, now the way I see it Scientists who believe in evolution manipulate the data to support evolution, when in reality, DNA data support the obvious and distinctive categorization of life that is commonly observed in the fossil record and in existing life forms. There is, in fact, a clear demarcation between each created kind (humans, chimps, mice, chickens, dogs, etc.), and there is no blending together or observed transition from one kind of animal to another. All created kinds exhibit a certain amount of genetic variability within their grouping while still maintaining specific genetic boundaries. In other words, one kind does not change into another, either in the fossil record or in observations of living organisms.

Another thing is that surely for the human species to evolve from a primate then this process must have taken millions of years, and there would be varying degrees of intertwining between the species over this long period of time, but as yet scientists cannot show one set of fossilised remains showing this primate/human crossover species, a species that must have lived and evolved over many millions of years.

If we evolved from primates in a single, linear progression, as is claimed by evolutionists the world over, why is it that it would appear that there were a minimum of FOUR seperate hominids all co-existing in Africa approximately 2 million years ago?

Now I am not saying I know what the alternative theory is, but I am just uncomfortable with my children being taught something as fact, when it appears that this is nothing more than guesswork.

Well, there are a lot of things wrong with your ideas.  The first one is that nothing in science is taught as a fact except what we can observe.  So, evolution the natural phenomenon where allele frequencies change over time in a population is taught as a fact because it is an observable fact.  The evolutionary theories, some of which you have a problem with, are not taught as a fact, but the most likely explanation of the phenomenon.

Another thing that you are not understanding is that the evolution of DNA/RNA molecules is an observable natural phenomenon and lends great proof to the theory of evolution.  If DNA/RNA molecules did not evolve in a very similar way as the theory of evolution predicts, then DNA fingerprinting and paternity tests would be completely inaccurate.  Although a lot of experimentation begins with guess work, it is no longer needed when testing evolutionary theory.  Evolutionary theory is one of the most evidenced theories in all of science, has such strong predictions, and is so reliably accurate that it is used in almost every industry today in one way or another.

The last thing is that all of these ideas of cross-over species or transitional species is a misunderstanding.  Every species is in transition at every single point in time.


#22    Imaginarynumber1

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 03:01 PM

Hmm... looks like you all got to it before I could.

If I ever have any children I will happily teach them evolution.

Edited by Imaginarynumber1, 30 August 2012 - 03:02 PM.

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#23    Abramelin

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 09:13 PM

Batfastard, you also think the earth is flat?

Any sailor, thousands of years ago, could have told you that was wrong. The ancient Greeks knew the earth was a globe (they even calculated the circumference of the earth, and made only a minor error), but no, it took us another 1600 (?) years to agree with what anyone could have known if they had just accepted the proof.

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You might want to start with Googling "atavism".


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Edited by Abramelin, 30 August 2012 - 09:19 PM.


#24    Blueogre2

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 09:16 PM

Evolution is a load of crap that was good science back in the day, but now its' pretty much disproven. Creation is the only possible way we could have gotten here, anyone who says otherwise just dosen't want to admit that they owe their life to God. But hey it's alright, God is good enough that he allows us to make our own decisions even if they are the wrong ones, however one day we all have to die and when we do we will stand before Him and have to make an account for our lives. I don't want to be the guy who gets there and says ahh sorry God, I would have believed in you if it was not for all these fake bones people keep putting forward as reality.


#25    Imaginarynumber1

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 09:23 PM

View PostBlueogre2, on 03 September 2012 - 09:16 PM, said:

Evolution is a load of crap that was good science back in the day, but now its' pretty much disproven. Creation is the only possible way we could have gotten here, anyone who says otherwise just dosen't want to admit that they owe their life to God. But hey it's alright, God is good enough that he allows us to make our own decisions even if they are the wrong ones, however one day we all have to die and when we do we will stand before Him and have to make an account for our lives. I don't want to be the guy who gets there and says ahh sorry God, I would have believed in you if it was not for all these fake bones people keep putting forward as reality.

You're just wrong on so many levels. Evolution has never been disproven.
Now I expect you to apologize to those of us that aren't scientifically illiterate.

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#26    Blueogre2

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 09:29 PM

View PostImaginarynumber1, on 03 September 2012 - 09:23 PM, said:

You're just wrong on so many levels. Evolution has never been disproven.
Now I expect you to apologize to those of us that aren't scientifically illiterate.
Ya know what? I hear all these atheists and evolutionists try so hard to disprove God, and creationism, they come with their witty comebacks but in the end they can't prove a single thing about evolution. Because there is nothing to prove thats why. God made the universe, it's painfully obvious.


#27    Supersquatch

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 09:32 PM

View PostBatfastard, on 30 August 2012 - 10:12 AM, said:

Now before I start I am in no way a 'Creationist', but neither do I hold the belief that we evolved from primates.

The evolution theory is now being taught in most schools as accepted fact, and that to me is a tad worrying - where is the evidence?

DNA evidence I hear people shout, now the way I see it Scientists who believe in evolution manipulate the data to support evolution, when in reality, DNA data support the obvious and distinctive categorization of life that is commonly observed in the fossil record and in existing life forms. There is, in fact, a clear demarcation between each created kind (humans, chimps, mice, chickens, dogs, etc.), and there is no blending together or observed transition from one kind of animal to another. All created kinds exhibit a certain amount of genetic variability within their grouping while still maintaining specific genetic boundaries. In other words, one kind does not change into another, either in the fossil record or in observations of living organisms.

These genetic groups were established how exactly? What makes a mammal a mammal or a bird a bird? The least common ancestor of a group makes a genetic group monophyletic. Therefore, without evolution, genetic groups wouldn't exist.

View PostBatfastard, on 30 August 2012 - 10:12 AM, said:

Another thing is that surely for the human species to evolve from a primate then this process must have taken millions of years, and there would be varying degrees of intertwining between the species over this long period of time, but as yet scientists cannot show one set of fossilised remains showing this primate/human crossover species, a species that must have lived and evolved over many millions of years.

Are you referring to the over-used erroneous ideology that there is actually a single missing link? If you want to see a missing link, go down to a museum and look at all of our hominid ancestors--Ardipithecus, Australopithecus, Homo habilis, Homo erectus, Homo heidelbergensis, Homo neanderthalensis and even early Homo.

Have you ever heard of Australopithecus sediba? Some cannot even agree if it belongs in Homo or Australopithecus. Confusion in taxonomy would be expected, as some fossils look like one taxon in some respects, while it looks like another in others.

View PostBatfastard, on 30 August 2012 - 10:12 AM, said:

If we evolved from primates in a single, linear progression, as is claimed by evolutionists the world over, why is it that it would appear that there were a minimum of FOUR seperate hominids all co-existing in Africa approximately 2 million years ago?

We evolved in one linear progression, which suggests that three of those hominids we didn't evolve from.

View PostBatfastard, on 30 August 2012 - 10:12 AM, said:

Now I am not saying I know what the alternative theory is, but I am just uncomfortable with my children being taught something as fact, when it appears that this is nothing more than guesswork.

Guesswork? Are you familiar with the theory of evolution at all? It is way more than guesswork. I suppose you also find it uncomfortable that your children are being taught about other religions in History class or about the big bang theory.

Quite frankly, your children can believe whatever they want. I don't know why you would find that uncomfortable.

View PostBlueogre2, on 03 September 2012 - 09:16 PM, said:

Evolution is a load of crap that was good science back in the day, but now its' pretty much disproven. Creation is the only possible way we could have gotten here, anyone who says otherwise just dosen't want to admit that they owe their life to God. But hey it's alright, God is good enough that he allows us to make our own decisions even if they are the wrong ones, however one day we all have to die and when we do we will stand before Him and have to make an account for our lives. I don't want to be the guy who gets there and says ahh sorry God, I would have believed in you if it was not for all these fake bones people keep putting forward as reality.

HA HA HA HA LMAO!!! Fake bones? What? :lol:

Edited by Taylor Reints, 03 September 2012 - 09:35 PM.

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#28    Imaginarynumber1

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 09:33 PM

View PostBlueogre2, on 03 September 2012 - 09:29 PM, said:

Ya know what? I hear all these atheists and evolutionists try so hard to disprove God, and creationism, they come with their witty comebacks but in the end they can't prove a single thing about evolution. Because there is nothing to prove thats why. God made the universe, it's painfully obvious.

Actually, everything about evolution can be proven. Here is a simple example;

Quote

1. The universal genetic code.  All cells on Earth, from our white blood cells, to simple bacteria, to cells in the leaves of trees, are capable of reading any piece of DNA from any life form on Earth.  This is very strong evidence for a common ancestor from which all life descended.

2. The fossil record.  The fossil record shows that the simplest fossils will be found in the oldest rocks, and it can also show a smooth and gradual transition from one form of life to another.

Please watch this video for an excellent demonstration of fossils transitioning from simple life to complex vertebrates.


3. Genetic commonalities.  Human beings have approximately 96% of genes in common with chimpanzees, about 90% of genes in common with cats (source), 80% with cows (source), 75% with mice (source), and so on.  This does not prove that we evolved from chimpanzees or cats, though, only that we shared a common ancestor in the past.  And the amount of difference between our genomes corresponds to how long ago our genetic lines diverged.


4. Common traits in embryos.  Humans, dogs, snakes, fish, monkeys, eels (and many more life forms) are all considered "chordates" because we belong to the phylum Chordata.  One of the features of this phylum is that, as embryos, all these life forms have gill slits, tails, and specific anatomical structures involving the spine.  For humans (and other non-fish) the gill slits reform into the bones of the ear and jaw at a later stage in development.  But, initially, all chordate embryos strongly resemble each other.

In fact, pig embryos are often dissected in biology classes because of how similar they look to human embryos.  These common characteristics could only be possible if all members of the phylum Chordatadescended from a common ancestor.


5. Bacterial resistance to antibiotics.  Bacteria colonies can only build up a resistance to antibiotics through evolution.  It is important to note that in every colony of bacteria, there are a tiny few individuals which are naturally resistant to certain antibiotics.  This is because of the random nature of mutations.

When an antibiotic is applied, the initial innoculation will kill most bacteria, leaving behind only those few cells which happen to have the mutations necessary to resist the antibiotics.  In subsequent generations, the resistant bacteria reproduce, forming a new colony where every member is resistant to the antibiotic.  This is natural selection in action.  The antibiotic is "selecting" for organisms which are resistant, and killing any that are not.


Just because YOU don't understand it doesn't mean it isn't true.


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#29    White Crane Feather

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 09:43 PM

View PostImaginarynumber1, on 03 September 2012 - 09:33 PM, said:



Actually, everything about evolution can be proven. Here is a simple example;

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Just because YOU don't understand it doesn't mean it isn't true.

so true on so many levels.

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#30    Blueogre2

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 09:46 PM

Okay, a good response, at least you know how to defend your position. But every piece of evidence you have presented could also be explained by God creating all living things with a degree of similarity. As for the bacteria thing, that is an example of micro evolution, which does happen. Thats why there are different breeds of dogs and other such things. But evolution does not account for the origin of life.





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