Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


* * * * * 2 votes

As A Christian, When Is It Ok to Fight/Kill?


  • Please log in to reply
97 replies to this topic

#46    Yamato

Yamato

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,604 posts
  • Joined:08 Aug 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 29 October 2012 - 08:47 PM

View PostEtu Malku, on 26 October 2012 - 12:13 AM, said:

Then he's following his own bastardized version of the Gospels then, isn't he?

Wait a minute . . . isn't that exactly what Constantine did when he edited all the Gospels into what HE considered Christianity? :innocent:
Who doesn't follow their own interpretation of something?   That's what everyone does.   Unless it's the law and it's from the gobmint, and then you don't have a choice.  Interpreting that is the court's job.  Go tell the magic man in the black robe up on the wooden pedestal looking down at his room full of little people and hope he believes you.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#47    Yamato

Yamato

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,604 posts
  • Joined:08 Aug 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 29 October 2012 - 08:49 PM

This thread's question was closed in four words:  Christian Just War Theory.

http://en.wikipedia....Just_War_theory

Just War Theory has two sets of criteria. The first establishing jus ad bellum, the right to go to war; the second establishing jus in bello, right conduct within war.[19]
Jus ad bellum

Main article: Jus ad bellum Just cause The reason for going to war needs to be just and cannot therefore be solely for recapturing things taken or punishing people who have done wrong; innocent life must be in imminent danger and intervention must be to protect life. A contemporary view of just cause was expressed in 1993 when the US Catholic Conference said: "Force may be used only to correct a grave, public evil, i.e., aggression or massive violation of the basic human rights of whole populations." Comparative justice While there may be rights and wrongs on all sides of a conflict, to overcome the presumption against the use of force, the injustice suffered by one party must significantly outweigh that suffered by the other. Some theorists such as Brian Orend omit this term, seeing it as fertile ground for exploitation by bellicose regimes. Competent authority Only duly constituted public authorities may wage war. "A just war must be initiated by a political authority within a political system that allows distinctions of justice. Dictatorships (e.g. Hitler's Regime) or deceptive military actions (e.g. the 1968 US bombing of Cambodia) are typically considered as violations of this criterion. The importance of this condition is key. Plainly, we cannot have a genuine process of judging a just war within a system that represses the process of genuine justice. A just war must be initiated by a political authority within a political system that allows distinctions of justice".[20] Right intention Force may be used only in a truly just cause and solely for that purpose—correcting a suffered wrong is considered a right intention, while material gain or maintaining economies is not. Probability of success Arms may not be used in a futile cause or in a case where disproportionate measures are required to achieve success; Last resort Force may be used only after all peaceful and viable alternatives have been seriously tried and exhausted or are clearly not practical. It may be clear that the other side is using negotiations as a delaying tactic and will not make meaningful concessions. Proportionality The anticipated benefits of waging a war must be proportionate to its expected evils or harms. This principle is also known as the principle of macro-proportionality, so as to distinguish it from the jus in bello principle of proportionality.
In modern terms, just war is waged in terms of self-defense, or in defense of another (with sufficient evidence).
Jus in bello

Once war has begun, just war theory (Jus in bello) also directs how combatants are to act or should act: Distinction Just war conduct should be governed by the principle of distinction. The acts of war should be directed towards enemy combatants, and not towards non-combatants caught in circumstances they did not create. The prohibited acts include bombing civilian residential areas that include no military targets and committing acts of terrorism or reprisal against civilians. Moreover, combatants are not permitted to target with violence enemy combatants who have surrendered or who have been captured or who are injured and not presenting an immediate lethal threat. Proportionality Just war conduct should be governed by the principle of proportionality. An attack cannot be launched on a military objective in the knowledge that the incidental civilian injuries would be clearly excessive in relation to the anticipated military advantage (principle of proportionality). Military necessity Just war conduct should be governed by the principle of minimum force. An attack or action must be intended to help in the military defeat of the enemy, it must be an attack on a military objective, and the harm caused to civilians or civilian property must be proportional and not excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated. This principle is meant to limit excessive and unnecessary death and destruction. Fair treatment of prisoners of war Enemy soldiers who surrendered or who are captured no longer pose a threat. It is therefore wrong to torture them or otherwise mistreat them. No means malum in se Soldiers may not use weapons or other methods of warfare which are considered evil, such as mass rape, forcing soldiers to fight against their own side or using weapons whose effects cannot be controlled (e.g. nuclear weapons).

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#48    Etu Malku

Etu Malku

    Paranormal Investigator

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 823 posts
  • Joined:03 Aug 2012
  • Gender:Male

  • Mercuræn

Posted 29 October 2012 - 10:45 PM

View PostYamato, on 29 October 2012 - 08:47 PM, said:

Who doesn't follow their own interpretation of something?   That's what everyone does.
Isn't that the point of religion though? It isn't open to interpretation because God is omniscient & omnipotent and perfect, so obviously his Laws are perfect :innocent:

Tarkhem Productions
   IAMTHATIAMNOT

#49    Mr Walker

Mr Walker

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 15,448 posts
  • Joined:09 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Not Selected
  • Location:Australia

  • Sometimes the Phantom leaves the jungle, and walks the streets of the city like an ordinary man.

Posted 30 October 2012 - 11:46 AM

View PostEtu Malku, on 29 October 2012 - 10:45 PM, said:

Isn't that the point of religion though? It isn't open to interpretation because God is omniscient & omnipotent and perfect, so obviously his Laws are perfect :innocent:
Who told you god was any of those things? And why on earth did you believe them ?

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#50    Yamato

Yamato

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,604 posts
  • Joined:08 Aug 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 30 October 2012 - 10:42 PM

View PostEtu Malku, on 29 October 2012 - 10:45 PM, said:

Isn't that the point of religion though? It isn't open to interpretation because God is omniscient & omnipotent and perfect, so obviously his Laws are perfect :innocent:
Is God?  That's just an interpretation.   God didn't promise us parking spaces, and sports teams victories, and that promotion at work we've been pining for, or for our young men and women to come home safe from the ridiculous foreign wars our government sends our young people to get maimed and killed over.   It's interpretations like that which might cause people to reject spirituality and resign themselves to believe in only what they've been told has been proven, which is the most anti-scientific mindset of all.   The choice isn't between Santa Claus in the Sky for Adults, and Nothing.  It's an infinite field of possibilities that the blind in denial will never allow themselves the chance to find.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#51    Amalthe

Amalthe

    Apparition

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 265 posts
  • Joined:07 Feb 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Croaton

Posted 31 October 2012 - 10:54 AM

It is a simple question of "Justice" and "Mercy".
It is a "Just" thing to defend yourself against enemy attacking you, so you have right to stop the attacker. However is is more spiritually perfect to turn other cheek and allow to be hurt by attacker. By showing him "Mercy" in a way that you allow yourself to get hurt, although you could defend, you might make enough impression on him to convert him to Christianity. such things happened in history. And turning enemy into a fellow believer is greatest achievement a Christian can do. However, if attacker is trying to take your life, consider that by dying you might be passing future opportunities to do good and convert more unbelievers into Christians, so you should protect your life.

In short, it is acceptable to defend yourself, but it's more perfect not to defend.


#52    Beckys_Mom

Beckys_Mom

    Sarcastic Muppet..!

  • Member
  • 51,196 posts
  • Joined:01 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Ireland

  • "I hate pretentious people. I mean, what is the point in applying exorbitantly extensive vocabulary, it is just straightforwardly unnecessary".

Posted 31 October 2012 - 08:06 PM

View PostAmalthe, on 31 October 2012 - 10:54 AM, said:

However, if attacker is trying to take your life, consider that by dying you might be passing future opportunities to do good and convert more unbelievers into Christians, so you should protect your life.

In short, it is acceptable to defend yourself, but it's more perfect not to defend.

Only defend yourself so you can go around converting  non believers ?  Yea because there is nothing more to life  !! ...Now I have read everything lol

Posted ImageRAW Berris... Dare you enter?

If there's a heaven...I hope to hell I get there !

#53    Amalthe

Amalthe

    Apparition

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 265 posts
  • Joined:07 Feb 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Croaton

Posted 05 November 2012 - 08:10 AM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 31 October 2012 - 08:06 PM, said:

Only defend yourself so you can go around converting  non believers ?  Yea because there is nothing more to life  !! ...Now I have read everything lol

For a true CHRISTIAN believer, there IS nothing more to life than to turn your enemies into friends. Sometimes you can do it by living an examplar life, but sometimes whene enemies coma upon you, keeping life is not possible. You have to make a choice for yourself, but I believe that you will know what to do when in such situation.

Edited by Amalthe, 05 November 2012 - 08:21 AM.


#54    Amalthe

Amalthe

    Apparition

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 265 posts
  • Joined:07 Feb 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Croaton

Posted 05 November 2012 - 08:17 AM

Just to make sure, basis of answer to the question "As a christian, when is ok to fight/ kill" should be based on teachings and doctrine of christianity. By no means if should apply to other religions, for they have different principles and teachings.

Edited by Amalthe, 05 November 2012 - 08:25 AM.


#55    Beckys_Mom

Beckys_Mom

    Sarcastic Muppet..!

  • Member
  • 51,196 posts
  • Joined:01 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Ireland

  • "I hate pretentious people. I mean, what is the point in applying exorbitantly extensive vocabulary, it is just straightforwardly unnecessary".

Posted 06 November 2012 - 01:48 PM

View PostAmalthe, on 05 November 2012 - 08:10 AM, said:

For a true CHRISTIAN believer, there IS nothing more to life than to turn your enemies into friends.

That is sad ... If a person will only defend themselves  just so they can go around converting.. then they have nothing more in their lives to live for..  

I would hate to think that my life was that empty..  I am glad I have a lot more in my life to fight and live for..

Posted ImageRAW Berris... Dare you enter?

If there's a heaven...I hope to hell I get there !

#56    Amalthe

Amalthe

    Apparition

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 265 posts
  • Joined:07 Feb 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Croaton

Posted 06 November 2012 - 03:10 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 06 November 2012 - 01:48 PM, said:

That is sad ... If a person will only defend themselves  just so they can go around converting.. then they have nothing more in their lives to live for..  

I would hate to think that my life was that empty..  I am glad I have a lot more in my life to fight and live for..

I understand your perspective, since I was also once outside of christianity. However, have in mind that developing personal relationship with God fills that empiness completely, and then you can understand why early christians gladly gave their life for their beliefs. I believe that every christian hopes for normal life and that he doesn't  want to get into opportunity to sacrifice his life for fellow human, but history shows us that when times come, people show their true heart.


#57    Etu Malku

Etu Malku

    Paranormal Investigator

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 823 posts
  • Joined:03 Aug 2012
  • Gender:Male

  • Mercuræn

Posted 06 November 2012 - 03:33 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 30 October 2012 - 11:46 AM, said:

Who told you god was any of those things? And why on earth did you believe them ?
That best seller the Christian bible says so . . . jeez, read your own scripture will ya :whistle:


Matthew 19:26
But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Genesis 17:1
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Job 42:2
I know that thou canst do everything, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.

Jeremiah 32:17,27
Ah Lord God! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee:
Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?

Luke 1:37
For with God nothing shall be impossible.

Revelation 19:6
And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.



Tarkhem Productions
   IAMTHATIAMNOT

#58    Beckys_Mom

Beckys_Mom

    Sarcastic Muppet..!

  • Member
  • 51,196 posts
  • Joined:01 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Ireland

  • "I hate pretentious people. I mean, what is the point in applying exorbitantly extensive vocabulary, it is just straightforwardly unnecessary".

Posted 06 November 2012 - 07:45 PM

View PostAmalthe, on 06 November 2012 - 03:10 PM, said:

I understand your perspective, since I was also once outside of christianity.

It has nothing to do with being outside your religion.. There are many christians who value their faith,  but they  would not think - The only reason to defend themselves  is  just so they can convert non believers, they value their loved ones and they have more in their lives to live for
I feel sorry for anyone that has nothing in their lives to want to live for  other than converting people. ... that is truly sad...

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 06 November 2012 - 07:46 PM.

Posted ImageRAW Berris... Dare you enter?

If there's a heaven...I hope to hell I get there !

#59    Amalthe

Amalthe

    Apparition

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 265 posts
  • Joined:07 Feb 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Croaton

Posted 07 November 2012 - 08:35 AM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 06 November 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

It has nothing to do with being outside your religion.. There are many christians who value their faith,  but they  would not think - The only reason to defend themselves  is  just so they can convert non believers, they value their loved ones and they have more in their lives to live for
I feel sorry for anyone that has nothing in their lives to want to live for  other than converting people. ... that is truly sad...

That's strange... i never said that is the ONLY reason, yet you keep repeating that statement. Maybe you have a point, because my words sound too fanatical, I didn't verbalize my thought correctly. So i would like to quote some Bible verses to explain.

Jesus gave specific request to his followers:
Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

This is important because God wants everyone to be saved if possible. So if you have a brother who is not saved, if you love him, wouldn't best thing you could do is to save him?

No greater love therefore is:
John 15:13 There is no greater love than to lay down one's life for one's friends.

So with friend is it easy because you care for them, But what about enemies?
Matt 5:44-46 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. ...
If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?


My point was: for a christian there are many things that you can do to enjoy and have a fruitfull life that pleases God, and those things would give you reasons to defend yourself, and that's OK. But converting enemies into your brothers is most PERFECT, greatest achievement you can do as a christian, may it be by living or by dying.


#60    King Fluffs

King Fluffs

    The Resident Misanthrope

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,111 posts
  • Joined:23 Dec 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:England

  • Shadows protect my angel in white...

Posted 07 November 2012 - 08:42 AM

I guess if your life is in danger, then it's okay.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users