4027 replies to this topic

[Otharus]

Otharus, on 14 November 2012 - 07:21 AM, said:

In Greek Stavros (Στaύρος) means pole or cross. It is a common name for people and places.
Stable and staple are related words.

And, I guess , names like Steven, Stefan, Stephanie, Esteban.

The Dutch and German naval term steven (stem of ship).
Danish: stævn
Norwegian: Stevn
Swedish: Stäv
French: étrave

Edited by Otharus, 14 November 2012 - 09:10 AM.

[Abramelin]

I wonder where you think the OLB "Texland" was located.

And if you agree with me it could only have been the present island of Texel and the surrounding area (whether still above sea level or now below), then Medemblik, Stavoren and the Fly/Vlie could not have been located in Belgium.

The part of the Netherlands (the district of Westfriesland in the province of Noordholland) which must be part of the OLB Texland is now in the hands of archeologists:

http://www.unexplain...60#entry4534141


And although it doesn't give a reference (let's hope someone didn't use the OLB itself, lol), this is what Wiki says:

Stavoren werd rond 300 jaar voor Christus opgericht aan een waterloop.
Stavoren was founded around 300 BCE near a watercourse.

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stavoren
http://kunst-en-cult...-nederland.html

[Abramelin]

OK, I see it on Vandemaele's map:

[Otharus]

Otharus, on 14 November 2012 - 09:06 AM, said:

Steven, Stefan, Stephanie, Esteban
Steven (stem of ship), stævn, stevn, stäv, étrave

More related Dutch words:
staaf (rod, bar)
stevig (firm, solid)

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 14 November 2012 - 09:42 AM, said:

OK, I see it on Vandemaele's map

Before the Kelts, Gauls and Romans became a serious threat, this will have been a more strategic area.

The northern Netherlands were also inhabited at (old) times, but mostly by farmers it seems.

In France and Belgium many (royal?) burial mounds were found from the iron age.

With the Romans and later the Franks moving ever more north, specially the (cultural) elite will have fled to what is now the northern NL (and possibly to Scandinavia, Scotland and Russia?).

As for the chronicle by Okko van Scharl:

It was edited and re-issued by Johannes Vlytarp, and again in 1742 by Andreas van Staveren (printed by Abraham Ferwerda in Ljouwert).

For van Staveren and Ferwerda it was business, just like Hollywood movies today.

They will have wanted to please (wealthy) crowds and they will have avoided to offend the church.

Van Staveren, Vlytarp, Van Skarl and their predecessors will all have edited parts.

They may have interpreted and moved certain stories north (consciously or not).

One has to take everything with a pinch of salt, but that does not mean that all is merely worthless fantasy.

After having read Wilkens' book on Troy, it became perfectly clear to me how the Troy story ended up in Greece, creating much confusion.

Similar things may have happened here.

~

It's not the 'facts' described in OLB that are most important to me (although they are interesting indeed).

Its language and philosophy are treasures.

Edited by Otharus, 14 November 2012 - 02:24 PM.

[Abramelin]

")Royal )burial mounds".. the OLB does only mention graves and dungeons.

Those (royal) burial mounds were made by Celtic tribes.

"The northern Netherlands were also inhabited at (old) times, but mostly by farmers it seems". That is true for many countries in Europe at the start of the Neolithic era, as has been proven by archeology.

"With the Romans and later the Franks moving ever more north, specially the (cultural) elite will have fled to what is now the northern NL (and possibly to Scandinavia, Scotland and Russia?)."

Frisian tribes (Frisiavones) will have fled back to their ancestral homeland, the land they had left after the area got a bit swampy. They, together with westward migrating Angels and Saxons, created the 'new' Frisians and later again, mixing with invading Franks, the Dutch.

"It's not the 'facts' described in OLB that are most important to me (although they are interesting indeed)."
But this thread happens to be about the OLB.

"Van Staveren, Vlytarp, Van Skarl and their predecessors will all have edited parts.
They may have interpreted and moved certain stories north (consciously or not)."

But what relevance does all this have for the OLB?


And something else: if many of the places and peoples mentioned in the OLB really lived in Belgium and Northern France, then were is the archeological proof they were around between, say, 2100 and 10 BCE?

Or is it - again - nothing but names from (early) medieval times and nothing more? And what do the Belgian and French historiographers say? It can't be that all their chronicles went north too?

And where are the Fly/Flie and Vlieland in Belgium or Northern France?

[Van Gorp]

Abramelin, on 14 November 2012 - 03:17 PM, said:

.

And something else: if many of the places and peoples mentioned in the OLB really lived in Belgium and Northern France, then were is the archeological proof they were around between, say, 2100 and 10 BCE?

Or is it - again - nothing but names from (early) medieval times and nothing more? And what do the Belgian and French historiographers say? It can't be that all their chronicles went north too?

And where are the Fly/Flie and Vlieland in Belgium or Northern France?

Kemmel/Cassel is known for it's prehistoric findings and studies are more and more interested in what can be found on especially the hill-tops in the area.
They seem to have been 'from time to time' (sic!) real crossroads as can be read in
"Kemmel-Cassel: De vroegste bewoningsgeschiedenis van de Vlaamse Heuvels", Y. Roumegoux & J.Termote, as part of Interreg I European Project.

As if the common believed history of the Netherlands is that much understated with archeological proof that you ask.  Seems that goes in a lot easier :-)
It's crystall clear that Dutch history is less old than the Northern French if you would doubt that.  Just look around.

[Abramelin]

Otharus, if you love to read these old chronicles, you might want to start with the "Chronicles of Eri" I mentiond a couple of times:

Chronicles of Eri: being the history of the Gaal Sciot Iber/ Volume 1 - Roger O'Connor, 1822

http://www.unexplain...184645&st=10365

And I did find Volume II:

http://archive.org/s...age/n8/mode/2up

In total some 1000 pages to read...


This looks like an example of that ancient Phoenician-Scythian writing O'Connor talks about:



But I must say that while scrolling through these tomes, I didn't see anything about some Frisian/Fryan empire.

It was considered a hoax even long before the OLB was published, but what a massive piece of work it is !

[Abramelin]

Van Gorp, on 14 November 2012 - 04:21 PM, said:

Kemmel/Cassel is known for it's prehistoric findings and studies are more and more interested in what can be found on especially the hill-tops in the area.
They seem to have been 'from time to time' (sic!) real crossroads as can be read in
"Kemmel-Cassel: De vroegste bewoningsgeschiedenis van de Vlaamse Heuvels", Y. Roumegoux & J.Termote, as part of Interreg I European Project.

As if the common believed history of the Netherlands is that much understated with archeological proof that you ask.  Seems that goes in a lot easier :-)
It's crystall clear that Dutch history is less old than the Northern French if you would doubt that.  Just look around.

I am not going to argue with you whose country is oldest, lol, but here they found remnants of quite modern looking houses (I posted about them before) in Elsloo of 7000 BP:



Then we have the many 'hunebedden' or dolmens in Drenthe.

Vlaardingen Culture, Hilversum Culture, Swifterbant, and so on.

+++

EDIT:

The Vlaardingen Culture was a culture on the border of the middle and late Neolithic. Archeologists found in 1958 in Vlaardingen, a city near Rotterdam, objects from the period between 3500 BC. and 2500 BC. that justified the designation as a separate culture. The utensils were made ​​of wood and bone (including axes, needles and the remains of a primitive canoe).

The bowls and bottles of the Funnel Beaker Culture were also found in the area of ​​the Vlaardingen Culture. In the dunes near the coast remains were found of some peasant settlements. They kept cattle, sheep and goats and grew some wheat and barley. The hunt was less important. Yet the culture still possessed some Mesolithic properties because agriculture in the tidal area between the mouths of the Meuse and the Rhine was not always possible.

This is clearly seen in the bones of deer, bears, otters and sturgeon that have been found near the settlements. The people lived in rectangular, but also in many places in round huts of wood and clay. Remains of the Vlaardingen culture have been be found up to Swifterbant in Flevoland.

http://nl.wikipedia....ardingencultuur

Hilversum Culture (1800 - 1200 BCE) :

http://en.wikipedia....lversum_culture

Sword of Jutphaas (1800 - 1500 BCE), belonging to the Hilversum Culture:
http://nl.wikipedia....rd_van_Jutphaas



Jutphaas is a town in the province of Utrecht.


"Just look around."...... I did.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 14 November 2012 - 04:58 PM.

[Abramelin]

Swifterbant:

The oldest finds related to this culture, dated to circa 5600 BC, cannot be distinguished from the Ertebølle culture, normally associated with Northern Germany and Southern Scandinavia. The culture is ancestral to the Western group of the agricultural Funnelbeaker culture (4000–2700 BC), which extended through Northern Netherlands and Northern Germany to the Elbe.

The earliest dated sites are season settlements. A transition from hunter-gatherer culture to cattle farming, primarily cows and pigs, occurred around 4800–4500 BC. Pottery has been attested from this period. In the region indications to the existence of pottery are present from before the arrival of the Linear Pottery culture in the neighbourhood. The material culture reflects a local evolution from Mesolithic communities, with a pottery in a Nordic (Ertebølle) style and trade relationships with southern late Rössen culture communities, as testified by the presence of true Breitkeile pottery sherds

Wetland settlement, unlike previous opinions, was a deliberate choice by prehistoric communities, as this offered attractive ecological conditions and a high natural productivity or agricultural potential. The economy covered a broad spectrum of resources to gather food, ruled by a strategy to diversify rather than increasing volume. As such, the wetlands offered, next to hunting and fishing, optimized conditions to explore both cattle and small scale cultivation of different crops, each having conditions for growing of their own. The agrarian transformation of the prehistoric community was an exclusively indigenous process, that ultimatey realized itself only at the end of the Neolithic. This view has been supported by the actual discovery of an agricultural field in Swifterbant dated 4300–4000 BC.

Animal sacrifices found in the bogs of Drenthe are attributed to Swifterbant and suggest a religious role for both wild and domesticated bovines

http://en.wikipedia....terbant_culture


.

Edited by Abramelin, 14 November 2012 - 05:25 PM.

[Van Gorp]

Abramelin, on 14 November 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

"Just look around."...... I did.


.

:-) Me too.

House in Elsloo : excavations done by Modderman (lovely, what's in a name!).
Same Modderman? quoting about riverarea's (not only in the West) of the Netherlands:

"Many areas that are abandoned shortly after 200, remain uninhabited, only in very few cases they again brought them under cultivation. A new impetus to the occupation of the river clay soils received in the Carolingian period (8th and 9th centuries)."

Not really against what Delahaye is telling about the difficult stories of Radboud, Dorestad, Willebrord, Bonifatius in the Netherlands.

[Abramelin]

Van Gorp, on 14 November 2012 - 06:26 PM, said:

:-) Me too.

House in Elsloo : excavations done by Modderman (lovely, what's in a name!).
Same Modderman? quoting about riverarea's (not only in the West) of the Netherlands:

"Many areas that are abandoned shortly after 200, remain uninhabited, only in very few cases they again brought them under cultivation. A new impetus to the occupation of the river clay soils received in the Carolingian period (8th and 9th centuries)."

Not really against what Delahaye is telling about the difficult stories of Radboud, Dorestad, Willebrord, Bonifatius in the Netherlands.

What Delahaye talked about is a period long after anything OLB.

Parts of the Netherlands were flooded after 200 CE, but not all at the same time as the supporters of Delahaye keep repeating. As you will know, they always post an image of the Netherlands being flooded for like 50% of its area around that time.

That was the Dunkirk Transgressions theory which has already been abandoned decades ago.

So, I am not saying parts of the Netherlands were not flooded after 200 CE, but that those floods didn't happen all over the Netherlands at the same time.

Now, if you had read the posts about Swifterbant, Vlaardingen, Elsloo and Hilversum cultures, you'd know that those cultures must have been what the OLB talks about. But without all those 'citadels', heh,

Citadels that have never been found, not in Belgium, not in France, not in Germany, not in Poland, nowhere in Europe.

And the OLB story is also about a lot of sea faring. We have here the oldest 'boat' in the world, the Pesse canoe from 9000 BP, but not anything that hints at boats like the Fryans were supposed to have built between 2200 and 10 BCE.

Edited by Abramelin, 14 November 2012 - 06:49 PM.

[Van Gorp]

Abramelin, on 14 November 2012 - 06:41 PM, said:

What Delahaye talked about is a period long after anything OLB.

Parts of the Netherlands were flooded after 200 CE, but not all at the same time as the supporters of Delahaye keep repeating. As you will know, they always post an image of the Netherlands being flooded for like 50% of its area around that time.

That was the Dunkirk Transgressions theory which has already been abandoned decades ago.

So, I am not saying parts of the Netherlands were not flooded after 200 CE, but that those floods didn't happen all over the Netherlands at the same time.

Now, if you had read the posts about Swifterbant, Vlaardingen, Elsloo and Hilversum cultures, you'd know that those cultures must have been what the OLB talks about. But without all those 'citadels', heh,

Citadels that have never been found, not in Belgium, not in France, not in Germany, not in Poland, nowhere in Europe.

And the OLB story is also about a lot of sea faring. We have here the oldest 'boat' in the world, the Pesse canoe from 9000 BP, but not anything that hints at boats like the Fryans were supposed to have built between 2200 and 10 BCE.

We try to link OLB generally with the Frisians and their history, with the latest pretended addition of OLB around 1256 AD and in the hands of a Dutch Frisian family.
So IMO: anything about 'Frisian' history in between is evenso relevant.
And there certainly is a link with the North and South Frisians, so I don't see why discarding that possibility in the search.

For my own convenience i don't bother too much with dates :-) for me it is not understandable how the date of Atland sinking is exactly known in 1256 AD + idem dito for all other events that far back.

About the citadels: I have an idea: why not projecting than the story on times where citadels were actually in use?  All in the mix like the rest of common history :-)

[Abramelin]

Van Gorp, on 14 November 2012 - 07:44 PM, said:

We try to link OLB generally with the Frisians and their history, with the latest pretended addition of OLB around 1256 AD and in the hands of a Dutch Frisian family.
So IMO: anything about 'Frisian' history in between is evenso relevant.
And there certainly is a link with the North and South Frisians, so I don't see why discarding that possibility in the search.

For my own convenience i don't bother too much with dates :-) for me it is not understandable how the date of Atland sinking is exactly known in 1256 AD + idem dito for all other events that far back.

About the citadels: I have an idea: why not projecting than the story on times where citadels were actually in use?  All in the mix like the rest of common history :-)

I will tell you what I think (and I have sang that song often before) : Frisian history is not that old and impressive as the OLB wants us to believe. Much of the OLB narrative has been borrowed from the Vikings and Nordic legends, and also from the Greeks, Romans and Phoenicians, all that spiced up with parts of Frisian legends and socalled 'personal accounts' to fill up the gaps, but they left out the 'superstitious' and mythical parts (dragons, giants, kobolds, stuff like that).

The "citadels" in for instance Alewyn's book (the book that started this thread) were nothing but ringwall burgs built during Viking times. People wanted to protect themselves against Viking raids, and added stone walls (or walls made from other material) and dug moats around their terps. Later on these structures developed into socalled 'motte castles' or whatever the English term is.

Archeologists have excavated these structures, and they never found anything of Fryan age in or below these structures.

==

The date of the destruction of Aldland/Atland: even Overwijn (the third translator of the OLB, after Ottema and Wirth) said it must have been a mythical date.

The Jewish calendar is based on the mythical start of history: the Creation of earth by God. That is, according to Overwijn, the same as what the Fryans did.

[Abramelin]

Boats, I love'm.

But the boats that Fryans could have built only show up in England, the former 'penal colony' of the Fryan Empire of before the destruction of Atland:


Ferriby boat

A boat found more than 40 years ago near Hull has been identified as the oldest of its kind in western Europe.



New scientific research carried out on the remains shows it is at least 4,000 years old.

The boat was one of three discovered by amateur archaeologist Ted Wright on the banks of the Humber at Ferriby near Hull.

The boat would have been about 16m long, with a flat bottom like a raft with the ends and sides curving up like a large canoe.

It was made of huge oak planks sewn together with twisted yew branches.

There was room for up to 18 paddles, with nine timbers or thwarts across the boat which could have been used by paddlers or passengers to sit on.

What is not clear is whether the boat had a mast and sail.

Keith Miller, a regional inspector of ancient monuments, said all three boats shed new light on the lives of our prehistoric ancestors.

"These boats were the kind of crafts that were used for crossing the English Channel or the North Sea.

"They were certainly used in the Humber estuary and the surrounding rivers," he said.

"They were large enough to carry not just people but animals as well.

"They would have been used for trade and they could have been used by the immigrants of the early Bronze Age who came from the Low Countries and settled in the north east of England."

http://news.bbc.co.u...ews/1234529.stm


Hanson Log Boat

The Hanson Log Boat was a bronze age boat found in a gravel pit in Shardlow in Derbyshire. This log boat is now in Derby Museum and Art Gallery.

The boat was dated to 3500 bp, which, at 1500BC is in the Middle Bronze Age, making it around the same age as the Dover Bronze Age Boat and somewhat younger than the Ferriby Boats from Yorkshire. It is made of a single dug-out log.

http://en.wikipedia....Hanson_Log_Boat


Dover Bronze Age Boat

Dover Bronze Age boat is one of the few Bronze Age boats to be found in Britain (in 2011 nine boats were found in Whittlesey, Cambs). It dates to 1575-1520BCE. The boat was made using oak planks sewn together with yew lashings. This technique has a long tradition of use in British prehistory; the oldest known examples are from Ferriby in east Yorkshire. It is currently on display at Dover Museum.

http://en.wikipedia....Bronze_Age_Boat


Those Fryans must have felt jealous when they saw Minoan boats:


.

Edited by Abramelin, 14 November 2012 - 08:52 PM.