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Frisland – not mythical but submarine?


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#121    Qoais

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Posted 28 July 2010 - 11:51 PM

THAT looks like THIS

Posted Image

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#122    Swede

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 01:37 AM

View Postlightly, on 28 July 2010 - 12:12 PM, said:

Abramelin , Thanks a  lot for the info ... according to that image of the last glacial max,  it looks like N.Z.  was affected only on the higher altitudes by snow/ice accumulation, rather than being plowed over repeatedly by ice sheets  , as here in the Great Lakes...   But .. who knows.. the Ice ages waxed and waned for some 200 million years?)   i'll have to read most of the 2nd link later...  (too bad most of the images turn into question marks with this slow dial up connection! ! )....  i'll see if i can find a present day river that matches up with the submerged one.   Sort of doubt it tho.. because of the many smaller branches flowing together  to form the larger river .. in typical river fashion.
* ( Sorry for the detour again Riaan,  just interested in the river/ravine question)

Hi lightly,

Apologies for interjecting, but just a humble correction. The Pleistocene (the "ice ages") date back to circa 2.6 million. 200 million would place you at about the beginning of the Jurassic.

.


#123    lightly

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 11:30 AM

View PostSwede, on 29 July 2010 - 01:37 AM, said:

Hi lightly,

Apologies for interjecting, but just a humble correction. The Pleistocene (the "ice ages") date back to circa 2.6 million. 200 million would place you at about the beginning of the Jurassic.

.

  oooops!   sorry.   Thank You Swede.

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#124    Abramelin

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 08:18 PM

New Zealand’s coastline in the ice age
In the last major glacial period some 20,000 years ago, New Zealand’s land area was much larger, as the sea was 120–30 metres lower than its present level. The three main islands were joined together as a single island. During this period, rivers such as the Clutha, Rakaia and Waimakariri carried huge loads of sediment all the way to the edge of the continental shelf. The Waikato River (dashed line) originally flowed north and entered the sea on the eastern side of the North Island. About 20,000 years ago it changed to its present course.

http://www.teara.gov...oor-geology/3/1

>>> http://www.teara.gov...floor-geology/4



"Great South Basin"
http://www.gns.cri.n...edbasins_4.html

"Head of Bounty Trough"
http://baby.indstate...ginsBounty5.jpg

http://baby.indstate...ez/margins.html


In the Eastern South Island Sedimentary System there is a rich record of contiguous sedimentary deposits contained in fluvial terraces, lakes, shelf edge clinoforms, canyon and fans throughout an entire glacioeustatic sea-level cycle.  Under highstand conditions sediment shed from the actively rising New Zealand Alps is stored in lakes, terrestrial gravel fans, and on the shelf, where the sediment cover is a mixture of modern, relict and palimpsest deposits.  Under lowstand conditions the rivers extend to canyon heads and discharge directly into the Bounty Trough. In the Waipaoa Sedimentary System sediment generated/mobilized from primary hillslope source areas by large magnitude, low frequency storm events is primarily sequestered on the floodplain and shelf.

The Eastern South Island Sedimentary System, comprising the Clutha, Waitaki and Rangitata river basins discharges onto a passive margin with a broad continental shelf.  The major rivers constitute a line source and northward flowing, along-strike, currents influence sediment dispersal patterns offshore. Both onshore and offshore, the system is more complex than that of the Waipaoa.  Thus, balancing the modern highstand sediment budgets is more difficult, but still feasible.  At lowstand the system discharges into the Bounty Trough and Fan, and is virtually closed.  The strength of this subarea lies in the rich record of terrestrial events (preserved in contiguous sedimentary deposits contained in terraces, lakes, shelf edge clinoforms, canyons and fans) for an entire glacioeustatic sea-level cycle, or longer. The focus here is, therefore, on larger scales, both spatial (~35 000 km2 source, ~250 000 km2 sink) and temporal (~105 kyr).

Although within sight of the transcurrent Alpine Fault section of the Australian/Pacific plate boundary, the eastern South Island margin to the south of Banks Peninsula, is a stable passive margin. The broad shelf experiences high sediment input from the actively rising New Zealand Alps, a strong imprint from eustatic changes in sea level, and a moderately vigorous along-shelf circulation system. The shelf between the Clutha and Rangitata is typically 30 to 80 km wide but reduces to 10 km off Otago Peninsula. The shelf break is at 125 to 165 m water depth and is locally indented by the heads of submarine canyons feeding the channel system in Bounty Trough. Shelf morphology is variable with zones of featureless seabed interspersed with ridge and swale topography, terraces and changes in slope that represent palaeoshorelines formed at previous stillstands of sea level.

Within the Waipaoa Sedimentary System, hinterland to shelf transport may be accomplished in tens to hundreds of hours.  This permits attention to be focused on the conditions under which specific erosion events in the hinterland are translated to depositional sites on the floodplain and shelf.  The major rivers of the Eastern South Island Sedimentary System constitute a line source and northward flowing, along-strike, currents influence sediment dispersal patterns offshore (sands are deposited on the inner shelf, muds move northward, and the Bounty Fan is inactive), though lakes now trap much of the sediment load of the Clutha and Waitaki rivers.  The situation changes at lowstand, when the lakes are effaced by glaciation, the rivers discharge close to the head of Bounty Trough and sediment captured by submarine channels is transported by turbidity currents 900 km eastward to the Bounty Fan.

http://baby.indstate...ez/margins.html

http://baby.indstate...ginsBounty4.jpg


http://clasticdetrit...re-new-zealand/
http://bulletin.geos...act/121/1-2/134




The bounty channel system: A 55-million-year-old sediment conduit to the deep sea, Southwest Pacific Ocean

Abstract  The Bounty Channel system is located within the Bounty Trough, a Cretaceous rift on the eastern edge of the New Zealand microcontinent. Today, the system is fed with sediment from the eastern South Island shelf, through the Otago Fan complex. The main Bounty Channel is about 800 km long and forms a sediment transport link between the continental margin and the distal Bounty Fan, located at the mouth of the Bounty Trough and onlapping onto abyssal oceanic crust. The Bounty Channel system has existed in its present setting since the inception of the Alpine Fault plate boundary in the mid-Cenozoic, while ancestral marine channel systems occur back to the Paleocene.

http://www.springerl...3174n48777n702/



Evolution of Pliocene to Recent abyssal sediment waves on Bounty Channel levees, New Zealand

Abstract
Levees bordering Bounty Channel 900 km east of New Zealand accommodate a 400 m-thick sequence (maximum) of sediment waves that have formed since Pliocene times. These bedforms, with amplitudes of 2–17 m and wavelengths of 0.6–6 km occur in 4100–4900 m of water and were formed by turbidity currents, as indicated by their restriction to levee backslopes, the frequent occurrence of turbidites in cores and the preferential but not exclusive development of waves on the left-bank levee in accord with the Southern Hemisphere coriolis deflection.

The wave field was instigated in the Late Pliocene when glacially lowered sea level allowed rivers draining the Southern Alps of South Island to discharge directly into Bounty Channel and its attendant canyons. The field grew vertically through the coalescence of small waves into larger bedforms that continually migrated across and up levee backslopes at an average rate of 5.6m/100 yrs. Wave growth decreased into the Late Pleistocene probably in response to progressive containment of turbidity currents as the relief of Bounty Channel increased to 200 m or more.

The glacial periods of wave growth were interrupted by interglacial interludes of quiescence when the field was draped mainly by pelagic calcareous ooze.

http://www.sciencedi...0d2e0bf5c704c1d


#125    lightly

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Posted 30 July 2010 - 12:27 PM

Wow!  Abramelin,  Great detective work! ...  you were right...  the 'feature' located in (Bounty Trough) i supposed to be a river system  is  what your information calls a  "deep-marine sedimentary system"   What looks like stream tributaries joining a larger river is described as  "tributary submarine canyons/channels coalescing into a single axial conduit down-system."  
     Anyway, good work bud!  .. thanks for clearing up the mystery.

http://clasticdetrit...re-new-zealand/

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

   ... You asked about my dial up connection?  Ya!  it makes it hard for me to search... many images turn into question marks... and sites load VERY S l o w l y.  I can see almost all images  posted in the threads.  Higher speed is simply not available here in " Frog Holler "  .. a fairly deep wooded valley just past the middle of nowhere .

Edited by lightly, 30 July 2010 - 12:35 PM.

Important:  The above may contain errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and other limitations.

#126    Riaan

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 02:52 PM

View Postlightly, on 30 July 2010 - 12:27 PM, said:

the 'feature' located in (Bounty Trough) i supposed to be a river system  is  what your information calls a  "deep-marine sedimentary system"

Irrespective of what it is called, the question remains how it was formed. One explanation would be that it was formed by running water millions of years ago, when the area was somehow above sea level. The other is that these long sedimentary systems were formed through turbidity action, which borders on the ridiculous. The sediment would have been washed away, spread out or deposited long before it would continue to erode a river-like channel into the ocean bed.

Author of Thera and the Exodus, published February 2013

Details here.

#127    Abramelin

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 05:43 AM

View PostRiaan, on 05 August 2010 - 02:52 PM, said:

Irrespective of what it is called, the question remains how it was formed. One explanation would be that it was formed by running water millions of years ago, when the area was somehow above sea level. The other is that these long sedimentary systems were formed through turbidity action, which borders on the ridiculous. The sediment would have been washed away, spread out or deposited long before it would continue to erode a river-like channel into the ocean bed.

You are a geologist?


#128    Riaan

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 04:57 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 06 August 2010 - 05:43 AM, said:

You are a geologist?
No, but I do have lots of common sense.

If you dig deep enough, you will find that the scientific community has an explanation for nearly everything that we know of. That does not mean that whatever the latest theory might be, it is by definition correct. It has earlier been noted that fresh water is not as dense as sea water, which means that it will rise above the sea water, i.e. no erosion of the sea bed. Sediment will therefore be dumped near the river mouth or be spread out evenly. As the river water flows into the sea its speed will be reduced, resulting in deposits near the area of the river mouth.

Do you honestly believe that a river could flow into an ocean with such velocity and volume that it could continue under water for 180 km?

Author of Thera and the Exodus, published February 2013

Details here.

#129    Abramelin

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 05:09 PM

View PostRiaan, on 06 August 2010 - 04:57 PM, said:

No, but I do have lots of common sense.

If you dig deep enough, you will find that the scientific community has an explanation for nearly everything that we know of. That does not mean that whatever the latest theory might be, it is by definition correct. It has earlier been noted that fresh water is not as dense as sea water, which means that it will rise above the sea water, i.e. no erosion of the sea bed. Sediment will therefore be dumped near the river mouth or be spread out evenly. As the river water flows into the sea its speed will be reduced, resulting in deposits near the area of the river mouth.

Do you honestly believe that a river could flow into an ocean with such velocity and volume that it could continue under water for 180 km?

All that depends on the volume of fresh water that enters the sea: if it's huge, like with melting glaciers, then the nearby delta would be near-fresh, not salty.

And if things like flash floods occurred (like still happen in Iceland) than boulders and huge amounts of gravel and sediment could be carried along for many miles. That's what I meant when I said earlier it would be like working the sea floor with sandpaper.

But what I get from your theory is that the areas we talked about were above sea level during human times, and that some people were able to create maps that depict those areas as still above sea level.

Sorry, if I read that samples taken from drilling cores indicate these 'rivers' were millions of years old, or even just tens of thousands years old, should I believe they are all lying?


I think it's about having a nice idea and not seeing it being supported by scientific evidence. I do hope you are not going to say it's all a conspiracy to hide the truth...

And another thing, all the cartographers you used those maps of to prove your idea were all Europeans.

None of them put Doggerland on their maps as dry land in the North Sea. If those maps (or the info on them) are as ancient as you suggest they are, then why did they leave that area unnoticed?

.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 06 August 2010 - 05:35 PM.


#130    pinOi32

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 06:49 PM

fascinating, although I wouldnt think theyre mythical

--

#131    Abramelin

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 07:02 PM

View PostpinOi32, on 06 August 2010 - 06:49 PM, said:

fascinating, although I wouldnt think theyre mythical

Welll, then tell us why you think so, please.

The only non-mythical land that disappeared is Doggerland, but you won't find that one on 'ancient' maps.

--

Btw, are you a Pinoy or is your username just similar??


.

Edited by Abramelin, 06 August 2010 - 07:16 PM.


#132    lightly

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 07:54 PM

View PostRiaan, on 05 August 2010 - 02:52 PM, said:

Irrespective of what it is called, the question remains how it was formed. One explanation would be that it was formed by running water millions of years ago, when the area was somehow above sea level. The other is that these long sedimentary systems were formed through turbidity action, which borders on the ridiculous. The sediment would have been washed away, spread out or deposited long before it would continue to erode a river-like channel into the ocean bed.

      Hi Riaan,   I really don't know.....  but , i would think that river systems submerged for millions of years (26 M.?) would be washed away???     So,  we are left with the more accepted,sedimentary systems, theory?
   Unless they are the remains of river systems which became submerged much more recently,(10-12K BP?) Which is the idea i like... but there is NO  accepted evidence for.     so.. beats me!  i give up.
    It is well known however,  that cold water can travel, at depth?, in currents/underwater rivers.. for thousands of miles.. (as can warmer water currents , at the surface?.)

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#133    Riaan

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Posted 08 August 2010 - 05:09 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 06 August 2010 - 05:09 PM, said:


But what I get from your theory is that the areas we talked about were above sea level during human times, and that some people were able to create maps that depict those areas as still above sea level.

Sorry, if I read that samples taken from drilling cores indicate these 'rivers' were millions of years old, or even just tens of thousands years old, should I believe they are all lying?


I think it's about having a nice idea and not seeing it being supported by scientific evidence. I do hope you are not going to say it's all a conspiracy to hide the truth...

And another thing, all the cartographers you used those maps of to prove your idea were all Europeans.

None of them put Doggerland on their maps as dry land in the North Sea. If those maps (or the info on them) are as ancient as you suggest they are, then why did they leave that area unnoticed?

.

.

What I am suggesting is that these 'rivers' etc were indeed above sea level up to around 12 000 years ago, when a comet or asteroid hit the earth and submerged parts of the curst of the earth by about 4 to 5km. The rivers would indeed have been formed over millions of years. Civilization then slowly recovered and the maps drawn at that time would have depicted the earth as it was then. As far as Terra Australis is concerned, that must have been what the south pole region looked like before the impact (my Atlantis theory).

Irrespective of whether you agree with this or not, I am convinced that the submarine 'rivers' were indeed formed by running water, i.e. those areas must have been above sea level for millions of years.

You are of course correct when you state that I have to come up with scientific evidence that these 'rivers' were above sea level up to 12 000 years ago. This I cannot do and even if that were the case, I doubt if such evidence could be found.

Author of Thera and the Exodus, published February 2013

Details here.

#134    Abramelin

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Posted 10 August 2010 - 04:35 AM

View PostRiaan, on 08 August 2010 - 05:09 PM, said:

What I am suggesting is that these 'rivers' etc were indeed above sea level up to around 12 000 years ago, when a comet or asteroid hit the earth and submerged parts of the curst of the earth by about 4 to 5km. The rivers would indeed have been formed over millions of years. Civilization then slowly recovered and the maps drawn at that time would have depicted the earth as it was then. As far as Terra Australis is concerned, that must have been what the south pole region looked like before the impact (my Atlantis theory).

Irrespective of whether you agree with this or not, I am convinced that the submarine 'rivers' were indeed formed by running water, i.e. those areas must have been above sea level for millions of years.

You are of course correct when you state that I have to come up with scientific evidence that these 'rivers' were above sea level up to 12 000 years ago. This I cannot do and even if that were the case, I doubt if such evidence could be found.

But the only reason you are convinced is that you played with some medieval maps. I have seen some of those maps, and though people may not like me babbling about Doggerland all the time, I fail to recognize that land on these maps, a land that has been proven to have existed during the time you say those other areas were above sea level.


#135    lightly

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Posted 10 August 2010 - 11:58 AM

i  don't know if this makes sense, because, sea/land levels are thought to be fairly well understood.. timewise????

BUT...   the Earth's crust floats on a very dynamic/kinetic Liquid mantle?   Sort of like a skin on a gaseous cake batter??   It's accepted that tectonic plates move laterally .. a lot, altho very very slowly.  It is also accepted that lands rise and fall but..  Now here it comes..  What IF ?   the plates are  capable of SUDDEN UP & DOWN MOVEMENT ? ...  If such motions do occur ,  it might explain some things.... like,  Islands appearing or disappearing  and sudden floods.. etc. .. instead of always assuming that comets have caused all sudden earth changes.  I'm just trying to understand why submerged features that look exactly like river systems...  can't be?       .. Just a Thought.. and possibly idiotic at that.   ty.

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