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More Best Evidence for aliens


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#841    badeskov

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Posted 09 August 2009 - 08:32 AM

View PostHazzard, on Aug 8 2009, 02:37 PM, said:

These believers keep complaining about how serious scientists dont want to touch the religion that is UFOlogy... Gosh(!), I wonder why!?...need I say it..  Galactic federation of Light, Hoagland, Greer, Meier, and the likes, makes it very hard for someone like me, and others, to cut through the BS.

Indeed. It is incredibly how such can proliferate. I mean, what happened to critical thinking and common sense? Believing in a Galactic Federation of Light (sounds like something one would come up with in the late 60/early 70's during an LSD trip) because some "channeler" says so? And then the faith in people like Greer and Hoagland et. al., people that have a very spotted history. Speaking of using some very effective blinds, just a pity they are put in the wrong way.

That said, there are a lot of scientists in the field of UFOlogy effectively, albeit not visibly so. They are astronomers, atmospheric scientists, astrophysicists etc. They work scientifically and rigorously on data they continuously obtain, some of which shows unknown events and phenomena. However, since they publish in peer reviewed scientific journals (where the populist field of UFOlogy very, very rarely goes) , they discuss with all options open and somehow have discovered and explained a lot of hitherto unknown natural phenomena. Or left the observations as of unknown origin until better models and/or more data can be obtained. But that is obviously not very appealing for a number of people, people for which the process of independent verification and falsification are completely unknown entities.

Until such a day when the populist field of UFOlogy will cease to be populist and embrace the process the scientific approach requires it will continue to be a joke and nothing can really be expected to come out of it in my honest opinion. It is so clouded in ulterior motives by some and a naiveté by others that it completely overshadows what really has to be done and thus locks the whole field down in "research tracks" that are really horses that have already been beaten to death, i.e. obviously leads nowhere.  

Quote

I dont need this.... Before I have some real evidence I remain skeptical.

Me neither. And quite frankly, there is no evidence whatsoever for ET. Only evidence for something was there, but nothing as pertaining to the origin (natural, man made, ET, Nessie, Ghosts, <insert apparition of own choice here>). I will remain skeptical with you.

Cheers,
Badeskov

Edited for typos.

Edited by badeskov, 09 August 2009 - 08:37 AM.

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention to arrive safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow!! What a ride!". Said to to Dean Karnazes by a running buddy.

#842    Ra_Sun-God

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Posted 09 August 2009 - 10:10 AM

View Postbadeskov, on Aug 9 2009, 08:32 AM, said:

Me neither. And quite frankly, there is no evidence whatsoever for ET. Only evidence for something was there, but nothing as pertaining to the origin (natural, man made, ET, Nessie, Ghosts, <insert apparition of own choice here>). I will remain skeptical with you.

Cheers,
Badeskov

Edited for typos.
Well well well, you are so wrong  :D

The scientists confirmed the crashed Roswell UFO debris as Extraterrestrial origin!  :w00t:


#843    badeskov

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Posted 09 August 2009 - 10:27 AM

View PostRa_Sun-God, on Aug 9 2009, 02:10 AM, said:

Well well well, you are so wrong  :D

Not really, Ra.

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The scientists confirmed the crashed Roswell UFO debris as Extraterrestrial origin!  :w00t:

Eh, no they didn't. That is a very imaginative story, but that is also all that it is - a story.

Cheers,
Badeskov

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention to arrive safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow!! What a ride!". Said to to Dean Karnazes by a running buddy.

#844    Evangium

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Posted 09 August 2009 - 12:57 PM

View PostHazzard, on Aug 9 2009, 07:37 AM, said:

These believers keep complaining about how serious scientists dont want to touch the religion that is UFOlogy... Gosh(!), I wonder why!?...need I say it..  Galactic federation of Light, Hoagland, Greer, Meier, and the likes, makes it very hard for someone like me, and others, to cut through the BS.
And yet the belief continues to gain ground.  Matt Graeber, has a short piece in the latest edition of SUNlite, where he addresses the part skepticism has played within the ufology's 60 years of failure Link

21st Century UFOlogy: A challenge to skeptical thought
by Matt Graeber

Quote

I fully realize the UFO proponents haven't proven a single case to the satisfaction of the skeptical and scientific communities. But, they have made their case to the satisfaction,
endearment and embrace of a substantial number of peoples around the world. They have done so with the ever-increasing number of sighting reports,
etc.- which they present as 'Evidence.'
- Thus, skeptics have failed in their quest for hegemony in the saucer world primarily because they do not offer
excitement, mystery, exceptionalism, entertainment or, a sense of awe in folks with their more intellectual explanations and ideas.

Quote

Belief is a very powerful part of the human
living experience. The attempted extinguishing of belief by intellectually accented argument and persuasion are not adequate as a substitute for the stirring
of the human imagination and the anticipations of the soul. This is the dawn of an age of unbridled compassion, the blindfold is off the eyes of justice, the statistical
norm no longer applies, as it is the ‘exception’ to the rule which makes statistics necessary in the first place.
The challenges for skeptics are unique, more philosophical than scientific, more emotional than scientific and far more social
than scientific. It clearly demonstrates (as the Lorenzens of APRO once said) and I'm paraphrasing and revising a bit here..."When the emotional problems of UFOLogy
have been resolved, the phenomenon may then, give way to science.
"

I feel that he comes much closer to hitting the mark than any 'reality showing otherwise' saucer advocate.  Skepticism has failed in that it hasn't marketed itself as well as mainstream ufology has marketed itself.  In some ways, the pro-ufo camp has actually been given the opportunity to redefine what skepticism and debunking actually are.  Historically, it really wasn't that long ago that those words had a positive connotation to them.

Mainstream ufology his its Hoaxlands, it Greer's, Lazaars, Bragalias, Friedmans and a whole host of supporting cast.  It has slick production (in some cases) and the technological nous to market and spread it's message.  And above all else it has a message to tell and a reason to believe.  Something the churches of the world clued on to a long time ago.  You don't fill the pews by coming out and saying there may or may not be an eternal reward, and you certainly don't fill a convention/conference centre with anything less than the 'irrefutable truth'.

So where does that leave the skeptic?  Coming out with a truthful message accomplishes very little, since the target audience isn't interested in the truth (more so if they have to spend more than 5 minutes actually thinking about it).  
I have noted in the past that we are seeing emergence of the new breed of ufologist.  Those guys that aren't afraid to take the 'softline' approach and allow some doubt, skepticism and critical thinking guide their research.  But we also need a new breed of skeptic to take the stage.  Only then will serious science have a fair opportunity to place a foot in the mainsteam arena.

edit: Bolding mine, corrected minor format errors

Edited by Evangium, 09 August 2009 - 01:00 PM.

上人は菩薩と見たる桜哉
to saintly eyes
they are bodhisattvas...
cherry blossoms

Should RADAR really be held up as absolute proof of visitation by an extraterrestrial intelligence?  Click here to find out


#845    The Sky Scanner

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Posted 09 August 2009 - 01:15 PM

View PostEvangium, on Aug 9 2009, 01:57 PM, said:

And yet the belief continues to gain ground.  Matt Graeber, has a short piece in the latest edition of SUNlite, where he addresses the part skepticism has played within the ufology's 60 years of failure Link

21st Century UFOlogy: A challenge to skeptical thought
by Matt Graeber





I feel that he comes much closer to hitting the mark than any 'reality showing otherwise' saucer advocate.  Skepticism has failed in that it hasn't marketed itself as well as mainstream ufology has marketed itself.  In some ways, the pro-ufo camp has actually been given the opportunity to redefine what skepticism and debunking actually are.  Historically, it really wasn't that long ago that those words had a positive connotation to them.

Mainstream ufology his its Hoaxlands, it Greer's, Lazaars, Bragalias, Friedmans and a whole host of supporting cast.  It has slick production (in some cases) and the technological nous to market and spread it's message.  And above all else it has a message to tell and a reason to believe.  Something the churches of the world clued on to a long time ago.  You don't fill the pews by coming out and saying there may or may not be an eternal reward, and you certainly don't fill a convention/conference centre with anything less than the 'irrefutable truth'.

So where does that leave the skeptic?  Coming out with a truthful message accomplishes very little, since the target audience isn't interested in the truth (more so if they have to spend more than 5 minutes actually thinking about it).  
I have noted in the past that we are seeing emergence of the new breed of ufologist.  Those guys that aren't afraid to take the 'softline' approach and allow some doubt, skepticism and critical thinking guide their research.  But we also need a new breed of skeptic to take the stage.  Only then will serious science have a fair opportunity to place a foot in the mainsteam arena.

edit: Bolding mine, corrected minor format errors

Reading that reminded of the heading for chapter two of Operation Trojen Horse - John Keel. To Hell With The Answer!...What's the Question?? .....an area that is sorely lacking in modern ufology - where the loudest voices are saying To Hell with the Question???....We've got the answer!! .....the question is and always should have been, what could possibly account for the vast array of descriptions, sightings, timings, etc etc.......what we have now is those cases that seem to fit a certain critieria are cheery picked, the data within them cherry picked, so they fit the criteria of the question Is it ET??

What you was saying previously about the great researchers of the past warning against the current state of play over 20yrs ago - and what you say about researchers with a different approach and a new set of thinking needing to start drowning out the old school of thought, your right, and you make a lot of sense, plus your very knowledgeable, so what's holding you back? ;) :)

Edited by Sky Scanner, 09 August 2009 - 01:16 PM.

"Equipped with his five senses, man explores the universe around him and calls the adventure Science". ~ Edwin Powell Hubble

#846    Evangium

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Posted 09 August 2009 - 01:23 PM

View PostSky Scanner, on Aug 9 2009, 11:15 PM, said:

Reading that reminded of the heading for chapter two of Operation Trojen Horse - John Keel. To Hell With The Answer!...What's the Question?? .....an area that is sorely lacking in modern ufology - where the loudest voices are saying To Hell with the Question???....We've got the answer!! .....the question is and always should have been, what could possibly account for the vast array of descriptions, sightings, timings, etc etc.......what we have now is those cases that seem to fit a certain critieria are cheery picked, the data within them cherry picked, so they fit the criteria of the question Is it ET??

What you was saying previously about the great researchers of the past warning against the current state of play over 20yrs ago - and what you say about researchers with a different approach and a new set of thinking needing to start drowning out the old school of thought, your right, and you make a lot of sense, plus your very knowledgeable, so what's holding you back? ;) :)
Motivation issues :hmm:  
Sadly, I know I'd start writing the book or creating the youtube series and end up shelving it 'for later', like many of my past hobbies.  So I post in the vain hope that I'll inspire somebody more motivated in this area to pick up the baton and run with it ;)

Edited by Evangium, 09 August 2009 - 01:24 PM.

上人は菩薩と見たる桜哉
to saintly eyes
they are bodhisattvas...
cherry blossoms

Should RADAR really be held up as absolute proof of visitation by an extraterrestrial intelligence?  Click here to find out


#847    The Sky Scanner

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Posted 09 August 2009 - 01:37 PM

View PostEvangium, on Aug 9 2009, 02:23 PM, said:

Motivation issues :hmm:  
Sadly, I know I'd start writing the book or creating the youtube series and end up shelving it 'for later', like many of my past hobbies.  So I post in the vain hope that I'll inspire somebody more motivated in this area to pick up the baton and run with it ;)

Well I know of a few people who I sent links to and have been following events on here, since the last thread of the same name, as 'guests', and have been inspired to look a little further, so it's not in vain.  :tu:

"Equipped with his five senses, man explores the universe around him and calls the adventure Science". ~ Edwin Powell Hubble

#848    badeskov

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Posted 09 August 2009 - 01:38 PM

View PostEvangium, on Aug 9 2009, 05:23 AM, said:

Motivation issues :hmm:  
Sadly, I know I'd start writing the book or creating the youtube series and end up shelving it 'for later', like many of my past hobbies.  So I post in the vain hope that I'll inspire somebody more motivated in this area to pick up the baton and run with it ;)

*looks at baton and shudders* ;)

Cheers,
Badeskov

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention to arrive safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow!! What a ride!". Said to to Dean Karnazes by a running buddy.

#849    The Sky Scanner

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Posted 09 August 2009 - 01:40 PM

View Postbadeskov, on Aug 9 2009, 02:38 PM, said:

*looks at baton and shudders* ;)

Cheers,
Badeskov

LOL.....a couple more beers and it won't look so bad! ;)  :P

"Equipped with his five senses, man explores the universe around him and calls the adventure Science". ~ Edwin Powell Hubble

#850    badeskov

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Posted 09 August 2009 - 01:42 PM

View PostSky Scanner, on Aug 9 2009, 05:15 AM, said:

Reading that reminded of the heading for chapter two of Operation Trojen Horse - John Keel. To Hell With The Answer!...What's the Question?? .....an area that is sorely lacking in modern ufology - where the loudest voices are saying To Hell with the Question???....We've got the answer!! .....the question is and always should have been, what could possibly account for the vast array of descriptions, sightings, timings, etc etc.......what we have now is those cases that seem to fit a certain critieria are cheery picked, the data within them cherry picked, so they fit the criteria of the question Is it ET??

Very well put, Sky Scanner!  :tu: And so true. Some people are indeed coming to the discussion with a predefined answer to a question they don't really know.

Cheers,
Badeskov

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention to arrive safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow!! What a ride!". Said to to Dean Karnazes by a running buddy.

#851    badeskov

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Posted 09 August 2009 - 01:46 PM

View PostSky Scanner, on Aug 9 2009, 05:40 AM, said:

LOL.....a couple more beers and it won't look so bad! ;)  :P

LOL! When I have had beers to the extent that I don't find it scary,  I will probably see four of it (out of focus) and I will have a hard time figuring out which one to choose :P

Cheers,
Badeskov

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention to arrive safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow!! What a ride!". Said to to Dean Karnazes by a running buddy.

#852    The Sky Scanner

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Posted 09 August 2009 - 02:08 PM

View Postbadeskov, on Aug 9 2009, 02:42 PM, said:

Very well put, Sky Scanner!  :tu: And so true. Some people are indeed coming to the discussion with a predefined answer to a question they don't really know.

Cheers,
Badeskov

If I'm honest I can't really see it changing much in the short to medium term either - perhaps this new belief system needs to run it's course, where it will fall apart through it's own merit (or lack thereof) as people grow tired of the false promises, inconclusive videos and poor interpretation of data. Meanwhile, hopefully, serious research into our planet and it's atmosphere, space and all that encompasses will continue as normal, and when this belief system has run it's course we might be in a better postion to start coming up with some answers, or more importantly, actually agree on what the question should be.

View Postbadeskov, on Aug 9 2009, 02:46 PM, said:

LOL! When I have had beers to the extent that I don't find it scary,  I will probably see four of it (out of focus) and I will have a hard time figuring out which one to choose :P

Cheers,
Badeskov

Well, which ever baton you grab, as long as don't find yourself drunkingly running towards a BBQ you'll be fine! ;)

"Equipped with his five senses, man explores the universe around him and calls the adventure Science". ~ Edwin Powell Hubble

#853    NigelTM

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Posted 09 August 2009 - 02:14 PM

View PostHazzard, on Aug 9 2009, 01:54 AM, said:

This is the part that blows me away, Nigel!! ..I mean, I get the time invested, hard to let go of a life long belief and all that, but, how in the hell can people still believe in an edmitted fake/hoax!?
It's incredible to me too, but the will to believe is strong in some (sounds like Star Wars, doesn't it?). People are able to rationalize all sorts of behavior and beliefs, both good and bad. That's why one of the best things you can do for yourself is examine your beliefs -- "I believe this.....is that rational? Does it make sense? Is it healthy for me to believe this or act this way?" And that sort of self-examination goes for anything from the foods you eat to your politics to spirituality. Many believe that it doesn't matter how they act, because [insert deity or benevolent space alien] will take care of them. The fact of the matter is, that's not a healthy way to live (see here

Quote

Wis. jury: Father guilty in prayer death case
). Or of course the Heaven's Gate cult, or any of a thousand other....I hesitate to use "cults," because my point isn't just religion, but any...philosophy....thought process...take your pick, that people follow that is irrational.

So how can people believe in an admitted fake? It's not easy, but the fact is they work very, very hard at it, and don't want to give up that belief.


#854    badeskov

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Posted 09 August 2009 - 02:24 PM

View PostEvangium, on Aug 9 2009, 04:57 AM, said:

I feel that he comes much closer to hitting the mark than any 'reality showing otherwise' saucer advocate.  Skepticism has failed in that it hasn't marketed itself as well as mainstream ufology has marketed itself.  In some ways, the pro-ufo camp has actually been given the opportunity to redefine what skepticism and debunking actually are.  Historically, it really wasn't that long ago that those words had a positive connotation to them.

Evangium, it is very rare that I disagree with you, but I must do so here. I don't see that skepticism has failed as such. While I see it as the skeptics job to continuously counter the likes of Hoagland et. al., I don't see it as their job to educate the gullible in this sense. Honestly, I see that as the job of parenting and subsequently the education system. And in that sense I don't think the amount of gullible have really increased, I think we are just seeing the effect of the internet where anybody can post without any editorial scrutiny. And, quite frankly, we could be called masochists since we are coming here to discuss such topics (and with an urge to actually try and educate); we could be in one of the strictly scientific discussion forums.    

That said, I enjoy it here and the few people that have actually taken a more skeptical approach based on the skeptics' posts here is reward enough for me. I have no illusion of turning this field around as there are too many with predetermined opinions, as Sky Scanner also put it.  

Quote

Mainstream ufology his its Hoaxlands, it Greer's, Lazaars, Bragalias, Friedmans and a whole host of supporting cast.  It has slick production (in some cases) and the technological nous to market and spread it's message.  And above all else it has a message to tell and a reason to believe.  Something the churches of the world clued on to a long time ago.  You don't fill the pews by coming out and saying there may or may not be an eternal reward, and you certainly don't fill a convention/conference centre with anything less than the 'irrefutable truth'.

The field of ufology is just one of such areas. It is a system of belief, just like religion. And I doubt there will ever be a means to eliminate that. I think it is built into human nature.

Quote

So where does that leave the skeptic?  Coming out with a truthful message accomplishes very little, since the target audience isn't interested in the truth (more so if they have to spend more than 5 minutes actually thinking about it).

I think it leaves the skeptic where the skeptic has always been and maybe even cementing the need to be skeptical given the amount of clutter that is polluting this field. To be quite blunt, I don't think this has any impact whatsoever on science. Scientists couldn't care less about what the believers think and do. Nor would the Government. Neither science nor the Government is going to take any notice unless documentation is brought forth that can actually stand up to scrutiny. It is, in other words, background noise easily filtered out.  

Quote

I have noted in the past that we are seeing emergence of the new breed of ufologist.  Those guys that aren't afraid to take the 'softline' approach and allow some doubt, skepticism and critical thinking guide their research.  But we also need a new breed of skeptic to take the stage.  Only then will serious science have a fair opportunity to place a foot in the mainsteam arena.

I have a feeling that serious science will never really get the opportunity to place a foot in the mainstream arena on equal footing. Serious science will never be able to offer the same as a snake oil sales person. Science is and will always be limited by the rigorous process of science, whereas the snake oil sales person is limited only by the imagination. The snake oil sales person will therefore always be able to deliver the extraordinary that appeals to the desire of the mind for mystery.

Of course, this is only my personal take on it ;)

Cheers,
Badeskov

Edited by badeskov, 09 August 2009 - 02:27 PM.

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention to arrive safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow!! What a ride!". Said to to Dean Karnazes by a running buddy.

#855    badeskov

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Posted 09 August 2009 - 02:34 PM

View PostSky Scanner, on Aug 9 2009, 06:08 AM, said:

If I'm honest I can't really see it changing much in the short to medium term either - perhaps this new belief system needs to run it's course, where it will fall apart through it's own merit (or lack thereof) as people grow tired of the false promises, inconclusive videos and poor interpretation of data. Meanwhile, hopefully, serious research into our planet and it's atmosphere, space and all that encompasses will continue as normal, and when this belief system has run it's course we might be in a better postion to start coming up with some answers, or more importantly, actually agree on what the question should be.


I wholeheartedly agree. Honestly, in *mumble* years I think we will see this as a foot note in history like the belief in fairies and gnomes.  

Quote

Well, which ever baton you grab, as long as don't find yourself drunkingly running towards a BBQ you'll be fine! ;)

:D

I'll make sure no BBQ is around, albeit with the amount of beer required to actually grab one of those I would doubt my ability to coordinate my leg movements for walking, let alone running ;)

Cheers,
Badeskov

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention to arrive safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow!! What a ride!". Said to to Dean Karnazes by a running buddy.