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How do we stop it.


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#46    White Crane Feather

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 09:58 AM

View Postsutemi, on 18 December 2012 - 09:44 AM, said:

How do we stop it? Getting rid of the guns is obviously out of the question for some reason or other I suppose. Perhaps you could say what is your reason for wanting to keep a device that’s only purpose is to kill? I say this not to get at you but to try to expand the debate beyond video games although I do agree there is far too much glorification of violence in modern societies. Is the bigger picture more about the fractured societies we live in? Also Seeker ,no 1 in your list, “We identify autistic spectrum, sensitive, and vulnerable kids early on and give them incredible support against bullying and self-esteem issues”. Who will pay for this? The USA hates taxation, are you suggesting higher taxation to combat the problems in society?

“If the Climate was a bank we would have already fixed it” Hugo Chavez

Your kidding right. We are taxed just as much as any socialist nation. Our government is just better at telling us it's not a tax.

There are hundreds of millions of guns in this. Country. They are not going anywhere. It goes all the back to the the very founding of the union. the trick is to make to make it very difficult but not banned. Trust me that is a huge concession on my part.

Besides why will not anyone address the fact that there are other countries with libral access to guns, but it dosnt happen like it does here. There is another part of the puzzle.

Read this
http://www.telegraph...ll-Of-Duty.html

Edited by Seeker79, 18 December 2012 - 09:59 AM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#47    AsteroidX

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 11:14 AM

Banning violent video games would actually be a violation of the First Amendment. One of the reason why we have so much passion in the 2nd Amendment is that without it the First Amendment has no power

Yes I said we can say what we want and well back it up with our guns if necessary. But that is oversimplifying a more complex rationale for the above statement.

I suppose what the OP asked for was solutions and not argument however. Unfortunately time is gonna tell at this point in time. If you think WE THE PEOPLE have any say in whats going to happen next your mistaken. Its like a game of chess and atm its the Governments move. Where will they choose to take us as a Nation...Higher Taxes, Gun Bans (hopefully confiscation is off the table, LEO's that are overarmed compared to the population constitutes a foreign army IMO as they are under the control of Government be it State or Federal and no longer beholden to the people. Thes are very slippery slopes that our Forfathers spelled out very eloquently. Luckily the as well gave the people a recourse to remedy the situation by several means.

Edited by AsteroidX, 18 December 2012 - 11:20 AM.


#48    White Crane Feather

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 03:40 PM

View PostAsteroidX, on 18 December 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

Banning violent video games would actually be a violation of the First Amendment. One of the reason why we have so much passion in the 2nd Amendment is that without it the First Amendment has no power

Yes I said we can say what we want and well back it up with our guns if necessary. But that is oversimplifying a more complex rationale for the above statement.

I suppose what the OP asked for was solutions and not argument however. Unfortunately time is gonna tell at this point in time. If you think WE THE PEOPLE have any say in whats going to happen next your mistaken. Its like a game of chess and atm its the Governments move. Where will they choose to take us as a Nation...Higher Taxes, Gun Bans (hopefully confiscation is off the table, LEO's that are overarmed compared to the population constitutes a foreign army IMO as they are under the control of Government be it State or Federal and no longer beholden to the people. Thes are very slippery slopes that our Forfathers spelled out very eloquently. Luckily the as well gave the people a recourse to remedy the situation by several means.
Is a video game really an expressed piece of speech, or Is it a product  consumed? After all we ban all sorts of products. I know games tell stories, but really they are a produced and designed to create endorphins. Drugs are also produced and even designed to do this. If we made pornographic video games, and sat our children in from of them, would not the government intervene? I'm not really sure what's worse. Beating a hooker up with a baseball bat or breast monsters from Jupiter. ( heard that title on "maried with children" years ago). If I gave my 12 year old porn to entertain himself would I not be investigated? ( granted at that age they can probably find it for themselves).

The more I think about it looking back over last twenty years. I think there is a hidden danger here. Which is funny, I have had this conversation with a few people, and most can see what I'm talking about, but on the forums it's nearly a unanimous shoot down. Practically everyone typing away at their computers is at least in partial a gamer. Naturally there is an over representation.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#49    spartan max2

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 04:33 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 18 December 2012 - 03:40 PM, said:

Is a video game really an expressed piece of speech, or Is it a product  consumed? After all we ban all sorts of products. I know games tell stories, but really they are a produced and designed to create endorphins. Drugs are also produced and even designed to do this. If we made pornographic video games, and sat our children in from of them, would not the government intervene? I'm not really sure what's worse. Beating a hooker up with a baseball bat or breast monsters from Jupiter. ( heard that title on "maried with children" years ago). If I gave my 12 year old porn to entertain himself would I not be investigated? ( granted at that age they can probably find it for themselves).

The more I think about it looking back over last twenty years. I think there is a hidden danger here. Which is funny, I have had this conversation with a few people, and most can see what I'm talking about, but on the forums it's nearly a unanimous shoot down. Practically everyone typing away at their computers is at least in partial a gamer. Naturally there is an over representation.

Seeker can i ask you how much experience have you had with playing video games? and playing with your freinds online?

Im 18 I have been raised in this video game generation.If you were raised in this generation then you would understand how dumb it sounds everytime the older generation attacks video games.

Nonething can fully be understood from the outside looking in.

" I imagine that the intellegent people are the ones so intellegent that they dont even need or want to look "intellegent" anymore".
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#50    me-wonders

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 05:01 PM

The murder of those children has made the aggressive style of communication practiced by young males, and females trying to prove themselves equals, is now more intolerable to me than before.  Again and again, we here of a young person victimized at school or on the internet, who commits suicide.  I have mentioned this aggressive behavior is equal to NAZI Germany and this raised a moderators concern.  The concern was not about the aggressive, hostile and offensive behavior, but was about me saying this equal to NAZI consciousness.  The book Lord of Flies was based on what happened in Germany, and I think replacing our liberal education, with the German model of education for technology, put us on the same path Germany followed.

Aggressive and insulting male talk tends to be different from female rules in conversation.  Males are playing one up man ship and this can be great fun and even help develop strong leadership, but there is also the possibility of people being offended and things turning nasty.  This seems to have become a serious social problem.  When I say this is like NAZI Germany I wish the concern were a social one, and not concern about me for seeing this possibility as a ramification of the change in education, and Women's Liberation that did not liberate women to be feminine, but made it taboo to be feminine and took away our power to say, "that is not an acceptable way to talk to me".

I am just throwing these considerations out there, and announcing the recent rash of slayings in a theater, mall, and school, has pushed me to asserting my objection to offensive post.  Just as the Christian right supporting Bush after he invaded Iraq, ended my resolve to not discuss religion, because that "is not polite".  I am seriously questioning our social rules and who makes them.  Maybe boys will boys, but maybe a public forum should be concerned about the importance of good manners?   Maybe there is some social value to being feminine, to our culture and civilization?


#51    AsteroidX

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 05:05 PM

Do use a bad example: The man that the video that the was made and distributed on You Tube that caused riots across the Middle East recently was found to be within his Free speech rights. But was jailed because he was prohibited from using a computer for some crime he had commited prior.

So yes Id consider video to fall under Free Speech...

Should movies be Banned ? Bambi has violence. Ban it. See where that goes.


#52    me-wonders

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 05:23 PM

View Postspartan max2, on 18 December 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

Seeker can i ask you how much experience have you had with playing video games? and playing with your freinds online?

Im 18 I have been raised in this video game generation.If you were raised in this generation then you would understand how dumb it sounds everytime the older generation attacks video games.

Nonething can fully be understood from the outside looking in.

Do you understand how dumb you sound to older people?  When I was 18, it is really important to wear all black, preferably leather.  The guy I was dating became a Hell's Angel as soon as he got enough money for a motorcycle.  Status depended on being tough and willing to take risk.  Smoking cigarettes was essential.  My point is, our thinking changes when we get older, and if you are lucky, you will live long enough to be as dumb as we are.  

When we had liberal education, we held the idea that being smart wasn't as valuable as being wise.  I remember when taught our elders were to be respected.  You might live longer enough to understand that reasoning, but if will take a few years.   In the mean time you might read Greek myths about youth.  Those stories contain importance lessons.

Human beings do not just grow up and become good citizens.  What we take into our minds is as important as what  eat.  I began playing video games almost as soon as they were developed, and I still have original Nintendo boxes and games.  I wish everyone would play war games like Genghis Khan, because it is obvious how poor planning and bad war decisions can destroy one's own country.  However, condoning shooting citizens and police with such games, is not okay.  It is not intelligent for any civilization to condone such anti social behavior in any form of media.    Maybe when you learn more about how we develop, and why social rules are important, us older people will look less dumb.


#53    me-wonders

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 05:33 PM

View PostAsteroidX, on 18 December 2012 - 05:05 PM, said:

Do use a bad example: The man that the video that the was made and distributed on You Tube that caused riots across the Middle East recently was found to be within his Free speech rights. But was jailed because he was prohibited from using a computer for some crime he had commited prior.

So yes Id consider video to fall under Free Speech...

Should movies be Banned ? Bambi has violence. Ban it. See where that goes.

Only highly moral people can have liberty.  We protected our liberty with education for good moral judgement, and I think it was a huge, huge mistake to stop doing this.  

The issue is not just about violence.  Bambi lead many to believe hunting is a bad thing.   This is different from a society condoning killing the police and citizens with movies and games.  Do you see the difference?  It is not just about violence, but if we are saying this okay or saying this not okay.   Plenty of old movies would be shocking today, because our moral sensitivities have changed.  Check out the early Tarzan movies and hunting animals for the pride of owning a trophy.  Some of the Westerns condoned killing Indians, or movies portrayed dark skinned colored people in ways that are unacceptable today.  It is about the message we are sending and what we are condoning or make taboo.  Somethings like cannibalism and killing police and citizens, need to made taboo.

Edited by me-wonders, 18 December 2012 - 05:35 PM.


#54    White Crane Feather

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 05:45 PM

View Postspartan max2, on 18 December 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:



Seeker can i ask you how much experience have you had with playing video games? and playing with your freinds online?

Im 18 I have been raised in this video game generation.If you were raised in this generation then you would understand how dumb it sounds everytime the older generation attacks video games.

Nonething can fully be understood from the outside looking in.
I'm 33. I grew up with games just like you. Albeit it was new when I was growing up. I was addicted once aswell. I got stuck on starcraft and diablo when I was in college. My grades started to suffer, I wasn't training for my competitions as much etc etc. sitting beside my fiancé's hospital bed when, i was about 21 in the intensive care unit after a devistating car accident, I popped open my lap top for another round of diablo. At some point i looked over at her swolen face and near solid purple body and how much useless time had been spent on these games flashes before my eyes. I uninstalled my games and broke the CDs and did not look back.

Fastforward five years. I have successfully started my business. I own a house at 26, my wife ( same woman) is pregnant. I buy an Xbox. I have a good time playing ghost recon, call of duty, evenchually halo. There really isnt any problem.... It's fun. My mind is more stable, I have my priorities straight, I can turn the dam thing off and not pine for it. But, yet I am disturbed by the children I am playing against online. they are insanely vulgar and violent. I think I mentioned a line that sticks with me on this thread somewhere. After a two week binge of ghost recon, I realize all the time wasted on this junk is useless. I packed up the Xbox and buy a guitar and change my free time to more .... Enlightening and educational persuits. admitadly I would occasionally pop out halo or starwars. I'm a big fan of he sniper. But I always got acused of being something called a "camper".

Fast forward 5-7 years. I have got kids of my own. Have have been working with kids since I was a kid. I'm starting to see a very large number of teenage boys being increasingly addicted to this stuff. The games are awesome... No doubt. The over all level of coordination has drastically decreased, I teach martial arts I meet. We children and teens all the time. There are autistic and aspergers kids everywhere, ADD, bipolar disorders.

I ran into one of my families that I used to teach. The boy was an incredible gymnest with olympic dreams. I was talking with them in a resturante just as they were leaving. He was fidgeting and makeing these odd noises like some sort of addict. I kind of looked at the parents and asked if he was alright. She said oh.... He just wants to be at home playing Warcraft.  That's just on incident in many.

When the kids come in, I can tell this flat distant look on their face is from gameing. I call them out on it all the time. Parents drop their kids off with iPads to play games while they wait for their siblings to get out of class. The little eyes b eat intensely back and forth, and you cannot even get their attention. I have popped open the Xbox a few times with my kids, but quickly put it away because afterwords they beg and plead for me to get it out. They also beg and plead to use the spare iPhone for games.

Kids literally quit sports and other healthy activities to play more minecraft. Some say parents fault..... Yes. But for some parents and apathetic kid who dosnt want to do anything but play games is tuff to get motivated for something. When we look back at this years from now we will see that these addictions were nearly as unhealthy as others. There are geniuses behind these games competing for the attention of our children. And they get more sophisticated every year. Amazingly so.

Preteens and teenage boys enter a phase of their life called "the quest phase" this is a time in their life when, that they hyper fixate on their intrests. They become amazingly skilled at their chosen endevours. The sky is the limit ... music, athletics, technology,  academics... You name it. I have been raising leaders my entire career. I see it day in and day out. The kids that waste their quest phase on games, have a difficult time with emotional intelligence, do not comit themselves to hardly anything, and in general do not rise to their potential. The kids, that by virtue of themselves or their parents that were more active in other persuits are 10 times better off. The scary thing is is that boys like this are becoming more and more rare. My entire staff consist mostly of young women. One boy. And he has purposely avoided being stuck on games, has his own band, is a tinkerer, and is now on my paid staff because he is reliable and thoughtful. All my other hopefuls cannot get off the games. They huddle in groups discussing how they are going to do his and that on the latest gameing craze.

I have a feeling science will evenchually reveal how damaging alloweing PhDs in child psychology that work for gameing company's access to our young minds really Is.

Being 18, I don't expect you to understand this, but I think you showed great wisdom is suggesting Somone from outside of something dosnt really understand it. I'm no fuddy dudey yet, but I'm old enough to have peespectives that you may not be aware of yet. Its good to look at a aubject from outside the box to. This gives you aperspective of actual benefits and dangers. I have explored this through out my life. I am very concerned. I think allowing our youth to fixate on games in the end will turn out to be very damgeing. I look at all the boys that have grown to be successful I college and beyond. The ones that stick out and attend peppersine, MIT, and other great schools. Where never big time gamers. The ones that were.... Well couldnt tell you.... They dont stick things out very well. And yes most of it was because of careful parental control. Still I think somehow we are doing the kids who's parents are unaware a disservice by not speaking up.

Sorry for the jumbled sentences typing fast on the iPhone does that. I don't really have time to edit.

Edited by Seeker79, 18 December 2012 - 05:51 PM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#55    White Crane Feather

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 06:34 PM

Quick question for everyone.

How many of those children do you think might have been saved, if the principal, vice principal, and other willing staff members had their concealed to carry permit and were tactically trained?

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#56    AsteroidX

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 06:38 PM

Maybe 0, Or more. But there would have been a chance. It certainly sounds like people put themselves between the gunmen and the children now had even one of them had a ccw there would have been a chance to save lives.


#57    White Crane Feather

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 07:10 PM

View PostAsteroidX, on 18 December 2012 - 06:38 PM, said:

Maybe 0, Or more. But there would have been a chance. It certainly sounds like people put themselves between the gunmen and the children now had even one of them had a ccw there would have been a chance to save lives.
This vice principal, with his weapon, stopped the gunman from continuing onto the junior high school.

http://en.m.wikipedi...School_shooting

Another powerful article

http://m.nydailynews.com/1.211272

Edited by Seeker79, 18 December 2012 - 07:25 PM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#58    AsteroidX

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 07:10 PM

Interesting what you said about the quest phase.

I have a 10 year old son. He would play alot of games when he was 6-7. Not excessive and he was learning technology skills so I allowed to go on. Hes a very good kid so he gets some liberty from me. I noticed when he turned maybe 9 1/2 he kinda stopped playing the games so much. He would just put it down and want to go do other stuff. Now hes 10 1/2 and he will still pick up even COD and play it for 30 min maybe an hour then set it down and be perfectly  content.

You gave me knowledge about whats going on with him. Thank You.


#59    WoIverine

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 07:14 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 16 December 2012 - 04:33 AM, said:

My kids will never own that crap... Ever!!!

Wrong idea...restricting them completely from something will make it more appealing and they'll over indulge when they're free of you, or at a friend's house. Age limits for games are appropriately set. Play by the rules, watch them play, interact with them while they're doing it. Draw a fine line between what is accepted, what is not accepted behavior, what is real, and what is not real, they'll be fine. Games are not babysitters, that's the mistake people make. Mentally deficient kids who already have psychological issues (autism, etc.), should not play violent games, period, no matter how old they are, it's just common sense.

Edited by WoIverine, 18 December 2012 - 07:25 PM.


#60    AsteroidX

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 07:15 PM

So if we rage on gun control and ban assault style weapons and large clips but continue to not allow ccw eligible principles/vice principles to do so are we changing the playing field. A determined killer with 2 guns and several clips (even 10 shot) could do alot of damage.

I will add the town I live had a school shooting Kip Kinkle. And his spree was stopped when he had to reload and several students tackled him to the ground. This occurred in the cafeteria.

So really I could go on both sides of that issue.





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