4006 replies to this topic

[NO-ID-EA]

Have you folks seen this link "the L" s post #33 on the out of India thread ?

http://www.sci-news....ticle00403.html

now if Phrygians are Frisians  ?

Edited by NO-ID-EA, 25 January 2013 - 09:32 PM.

[Abramelin]

NO-ID-EA, on 25 January 2013 - 09:31 PM, said:

Have you folks seen this link "the L" s post #33 on the out of India thread ?

http://www.sci-news....ticle00403.html

now if Phrygians are Frisians  ?

There are Phrygian texts online, and they do not resemble anything from the OLB language.

Phrygian appears to be close to ancient Greek.

Here:

http://books.google....le text&f=false


 Phrygian_example.jpg   19.89K   2 downloads

+++

EDIT:

Ok, the link is screwed - and I lost it because I was in a hurry, but here is another one:

http://titus.fkidg1....ygian/phryg.htm

Now see if what you read there resembles the language used in the OLB.


+++

EDIT:

Found a link to the same text I posted a scan of:

http://books.google....ar the"&f=false



.

Edited by Abramelin, 25 January 2013 - 09:57 PM.

[Apol]

The Puzzler, on 25 January 2013 - 06:57 PM, said:

NO-ID-EA was born in Herne Bay, I'm in Australia - but I agree, quite a co-incidence indeed!

Sorry again - I was certainly too tired last night... I'm in Manila.

[Abramelin]

Apol, on 26 January 2013 - 12:23 AM, said:

Sorry again - I was certainly too tired last night... I'm in Manila.

Christ, I just got a text message from 'someone' in Manila.

[Apol]

Abramelin, on 25 January 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

Correction:

I translated the final word from my quote from the OLB as "brought", but it should be "moved to" :

Look under "Brida" in the Altfriesisches Wörterbuch by Karl Otto Johannes Theresius Richthofen [Freiherr von]

One translation (in German) voor 'brit' is 'gezogen', or 'moved to' (in this case), so the correct translation will be:

Then first they took from the Ph½nicians Marseilles, then all the countries to the south, west and east. also the southern part of Britain, and everywhere they drove away the Phoenician priests, that's the Gola; after that thousands of Gola moved to North Britain.


Correction 2 (..sigh..) :

Even better: 'spread to'.

I wondered about this 'brit' for a while, and in Dutch it would be something like ver-breidt or in English 'spread', or 'spread out to' (DU: 'verspreiden') :

Then first they took from the Ph½nicians Marseilles, then all the countries to the south, west and east. also the southern part of Britain, and everywhere they drove away the Phoenician priests, that's the Gola; after that thousands of Gola spread out to North Britain.


.

I’ve also had problems with translating the word BRÛDA. Yes, moved to and spread out to are good translations – in that particular setting. I hadn’t thought of the expression spread out to before myself – it seems to be the best. Sometimes it looks like the simple word go may be the right translation of the word – like in 156/18:

FON WAL.HALLA.GÂRA BRÛDON HJA ALINGEN ÐÊRA SÛDER HRÊNUM …
My translation:
From Walhallagâra they went along the Sûder Hrênum…

…or do you have another suggestion? But move may be the word in this passage  (41/24):

NIMÐER ÐÄN NACH NÊN ÊNGÂ SA MOT MÄN HIN DÂD SÊDZA TIL ÐJU HI UT OF LANDE BRÛDE…
My translation:
Takes he thereafter no spouse, then one must declare him dead so that he moves out of the land…

Often you find the word in the combination HINNE BRÛDA, which most often seems to translate best into go away.
The combination WÊI BRÛDA is a bit more difficult. Even if go away may be the best choice also here, it will not function in this passage, though (149/32):

ÐA ÐA SÊ.LANDA WÊI BRIT WÊRON…
My translation:
When the Zealanders had departed…

The adjective WÊI.BRITNE is a very problematic word to translate into Norwegian. In English you have more choices:

VSA WÊI.BRITNE WRDON VRDELGEN (50/14)
My translation:
Our fugitives were exterminated…

ÐA TWISK.LÂNDAR ÐÄT SIND BANNANE ÄND WÊI BRITNE FRYA.SBERN. (157/5)
My translation:
The Twisklânders – that is banished and departed Freyja’s children.

Edited by Apol, 26 January 2013 - 04:09 AM.

[The Puzzler]

Abe suggested brida which takes you to breida, one is bride but the other is: (revoke: abolish, annul, cancel, quash, repeal)



breid-a

11, brÆd-a, afries., st. V. (3b): nhd. ziehen, zucken, widerrufen; ne. pull

(V.), jerk (V.), revoke (V.); Vw.: s. ur-; Hw.: s. breud, hÐr-breid; Hw.: vgl. an.

bregOEa, ae. bregdan, as. bregdan*, ahd. brettan*, plattd. brüden; Q.: R, B, W, E,

H; E.: germ. *bregdan, st. V., zucken, bewegen, schwingen; s. idg. *b
herý¨-,

*b
hrШ-, V., glänzen, Pokorny 141?; W.: nnordfries. brüjen; L.: Hh 12a, Rh 670a

-------------------------------------------------

Or broad maybe:

Etymology
From Middle English brood, brode, from Old English brād (“broad, flat, open, extended, spacious, wide, ample, copious”), from Proto-Germanic *braidaz (“broad”), of uncertain origin. Possibly from Proto-Indo-European *(s)prei- (“to strew, spread, sprinkle”). Cognate with Scots braid (“broad”), West Frisian breed (“broad”), Saterland Frisian breed (“broad”), Dutch breed (“broad”), German breit (“broad, wide”), Swedish bred (“broad”), Icelandic breiður (“broad, wide”).
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/broad

Edited by The Puzzler, 26 January 2013 - 06:03 AM.

[Abramelin]

Apol, you as a Norwegian: how is your command of the German language?

In case you didn't know, the Altfriesisches Wörterbuch by Karl Otto Johannes Theresius Richthofen [Freiherr von] offers a LOT of info about the Old Frisian language :

http://archive.org/d...chesw00richuoft

And both Puzz and I use this German site:

http://koeblergerhar...rieswbhinw.html

And click on one of the letters of the alphabet.

Btw, this is my blog about the OLB with several links in the sidebar at the right:

http://oeralinda.blogspot.nl/

And this is Otharus' blog about the OLB:

http://fryskednis.blogspot.nl/


.

Edited by Abramelin, 26 January 2013 - 06:24 PM.

[The Puzzler]

Quote

Apol: ÐA TWISK.LÂNDAR ÐÄT SIND BANNANE ÄND WÊI BRITNE FRYA.SBERN. (157/5)
My translation:
The Twisklânders – that is banished and departed Freyja’s children.

Noting that brieda had bruden I think variations of that word might work.

The Twisklanders - that is banished and 'abolished' children of Freya..?

----------------------------

Maybe the word Britain is actually derived from same, meaning land of the abolished people. The OLB says something like this, bit vague this morning and my internet connection is playing up so I can't open the Angelfire site to check.

Edited by The Puzzler, 27 January 2013 - 03:15 AM.

[The Puzzler]

ÐA ÐA SÊ.LANDA WÊI BRIT WÊRON…
My translation:
When the Zealanders had departed…


or When the Zealanders had 'taken off' - not very refined but it is a way we say that - gone away/go away/taken off/took off (breida/brita - pull, jerk or revoke) take off - take (away)

Edited by The Puzzler, 27 January 2013 - 06:13 AM.

[NO-ID-EA]

re Brit / Britne  , How about escaped / escapees , and weron being therefrom or thereon, or we from

Edited by NO-ID-EA, 27 January 2013 - 09:09 AM.

[Apol]

The Puzzler, on 22 January 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:

po-ni-ke

If you look at Linear B, the po is a seat, the ni is a palm tree - hence the association with a palm tree??  ke is hard to know what the symbol is, another double palm type thing.

And the phoenix or ponike was a bird that was associated with the palm tree. The ni is a definite palm tree. With po as a seat, you get 'sitting - palmtree - '. I recall an Abba song called Sitting In A Palm Tree lol.

Which reminds me of this picture...a bird in a tree. A phoenix in a palm tree? The tree seems to be the double axe.



All a bit off track but imo interesting none the less.

Maybe I can give a clue to the riddle of the relationship between phoenix, the palm-tree and Phoenicia.

The reason why the Carthaginians depicted the date palm-tree on their coins, was to give foreign merchants a way of discerning that the coin was Phoenician. The palm-tree was simply used as a logogram, or you can say a pun, to indicate the word Phoenicia - probably because the purple dye wasn't easily depictable. It seems like they also did use the Phoenix in the same way on their coins.

Where I learnt this, was probably in Barry Fell's book Saga America. I have the book at home, but as I'm staying in Manila till May, I'm not able to find the page number, or quote from it, now.
But you can get another little clue from another book (line 20):
http://books.google....phoenix&f=false

It's not strange, then, that the Frisian seamen thought that: PHONISIA. DÄT IS PALM.LAND (61/15).

Seemingly, the ancient Frisians had problems with the ph when writing:

They write variously like this:
PHONISIA, PHONISJA, PHONISIUS, PHONISI, FHONÍSJA, FONÍSJAR, FHONISJAR, PHONISJAR, PHONISIAR - and even: FPHONÍSJAR! (200/13).

[Abramelin]

Apol, on 27 January 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

Maybe I can give a clue to the riddle of the relationship between phoenix, the palm-tree and Phoenicia.

The reason why the Carthaginians depicted the date palm-tree on their coins, was to give foreign merchants a way of discerning that the coin was Phoenician. The palm-tree was simply used as a logogram, or you can say a pun, to indicate the word Phoenicia - probably because the purple dye wasn't easily depictable. It seems like they also did use the Phoenix in the same way on their coins.

Where I learnt this, was probably in Barry Fell's book Saga America. I have the book at home, but as I'm staying in Manila till May, I'm not able to find the page number, or quote from it, now.
But you can get another little clue from another book (line 20):
http://books.google....phoenix&f=false

It's not strange, then, that the Frisian seamen thought that: PHONISIA. DÄT IS PALM.LAND (61/15).

Seemingly, the ancient Frisians had problems with the ph when writing:

They write variously like this:
PHONISIA, PHONISJA, PHONISIUS, PHONISI, FHONÍSJA, FONÍSJAR, FHONISJAR, PHONISJAR, PHONISIAR - and even: FPHONÍSJAR! (200/13).

 Phoenician_coin.jpg   85.43K   1 downloads

But it could only be a pun, if PHOEN&&& meant PALM, and the jury is still not out concerning that one.

And when came the first Phoenican coins in circulation?

Phoenician merchants practised barter for a very long time and surprisingly, were not among the first to adopt the metal currency. It will only break through when Darius I reorganizes its empire, and integrates Phoenicia in the fifth satrapy which includes Syria, Palestine and Cyprus, about 480 B.C.

Each city then minted its own silver and later bronze coins, at the effigy of the ruler, the protective god, or local patterns or symbols, like ships and cedars.
You may find coins from Sidon, Tyre, Byblos but also from Arados (Arwad) and Kition, Marathos, Berytos, Tripolis, etc.

http://sites-archeol...ie-monnaie.html


And this is what it says about your coin:

Carthage, ca. 410-380 B.C.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 27 January 2013 - 02:09 PM.

[Apol]

Abramelin, on 26 January 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

Apol, you as a Norwegian: how is your command of the German language?

In case you didn't know, the Altfriesisches Wörterbuch by Karl Otto Johannes Theresius Richthofen [Freiherr von] offers a LOT of info about the Old Frisian language :

http://archive.org/d...chesw00richuoft

And both Puzz and I use this German site:

http://koeblergerhar...rieswbhinw.html

And click on one of the letters of the alphabet.

Btw, this is my blog about the OLB with several links in the sidebar at the right:

http://oeralinda.blogspot.nl/

And this is Otharus' blog about the OLB:

http://fryskednis.blogspot.nl/


.

I'm quite into German, we learn it in school, and I know Richthoven's and Köbler's Old Frisian dictionaries - Wiarda's, Kiliaan's and Hettema's as well. I also have another Old Frisian dictionary at home.

I knew about Otharus' FRYSKEDNIS - now I also found his Twitter site, which inspired me to make my own Twitter site.
But I didn't know your blog from before, so thank you - I will follow it.

Regarding the word BRIT - I found this in Hettema's Idioticon Frisicum:

Page 115:
Brit, A.3,6. zie: breia.

Page 113:
Breid, breyde, sponsa, bruid. O.1.10. H.4,39. F.O.L.4,6.
Breia, projicere, uitwerpen. B.106: And breit hiu inur dura and invr dreppel. En werpt haar buiten de deur en over den drempel.

http://ia600301.us.a...c00hettgoog.pdf

[Apol]

This is the Old Frisian dictionary I have at home. It's Old Frisian-English:


Dirk Boutkan og Sjoerd Michiel Siebinga: Old Frisian Etymological Dictionary
(Koninklijke Brill NV, Leiden, 2005; ISSN: 1574-3586, ISBN: 9004145311)

[Abramelin]

Apol, on 27 January 2013 - 02:10 PM, said:

This is the Old Frisian dictionary I have at home. It's Old Frisian-English:


Dirk Boutkan og Sjoerd Michiel Siebinga: Old Frisian Etymological Dictionary
(Koninklijke Brill NV, Leiden, 2005; ISSN: 1574-3586, ISBN: 9004145311)

You actually HAVE an Old Frisian dictionary, lol. That's even better. But I downloaded several from the internet, and a couple of Old Frisian grammars.

And Dirk Boutkan: didn't he write a book with Rolf Bremmer as co-author about Old Frisian?

Apol, have you never tried to use (Bokmal-) Norse or Old Norse to literally translate the OLB, like I did using Dutch and Old/Middle Dutch(-ish)?