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Germany's limited freedom of speech


Mars

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Ernst Zundel Sentenced To Five Years In Prison

Holocaust denier Ernst Zundel was sentenced to five years in prison by a German court Thursday.

It's the maximum sentence the far-right activist could have received for his conviction on 14 counts of incitement. Denying the Holocaust is a crime in Germany.

The decision was cheered by Jewish groups including the Canadian Jewish Congress.

"I think that they've given a strong message ... to the world, that I believe will bring a tremendous amount of comfort to Holocaust survivors," said Bernie Farber, chief executive officer of the CJC.

"I think a lot of us can take a very deep breath and move on to other things -- other than thinking of Ernst Zundel anymore."

Born in Germany in 1939, Zundel immigrated to Canada in the late 1950s, where he lived in Toronto and Montreal until 2001. He tried to obtain Canadian citizenship twice but was refused both times.

An admitted white supremacist, the 67-year-old has denied the Holocaust for decades. Over the years the anti-Semitic activities he's been accused of include running a Canadian-based publishing company that distributed Nazi propaganda, and providing content to a website called The Zundelsite, which has followers around the world.

At one point Zundel moved to the United States, where he wed a woman with similar world views, Ingrid Rimland, but he was deported to Canada in 2003 for alleged immigration violations.

But his latest stay in this country was a relatively short one - he was held in detention for two years before being deported to Germany in 2005 when a judge ruled his activities posed a national security threat.

His German trial was emotional at times, as defence lawyer Ludwig Bock quoted from Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf and Nazi race laws in his closing statements.

Prosecutor Andreas Grossmann suggested Zundel was a "political con man."

"You might as well argue that the sun rises in the west," Grossmann said. "But you cannot change that the Holocaust has been proven."

source: http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_7873.aspx

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You're allowed to do what the government tells you to.

Anyone that belives in free speech should defend this guy.

How long until this Holocaust law is created in the United States?

Edited by Mars
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The Holocaust was a big hoax!

*waits for handcuffs* :rolleyes:

Edited by __Kratos__
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Everyone should have the right to their own opinions, regardless of what they are. 5 years seems a bit extreme but I think that Germany still feels ashamed of it past and is still trying to prove that it isnt the country it was during Hilter.

I'm not saying it is or it isnt't just making a statement.

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The Holocaust was a big hoax!

*waits for handcuffs* :rolleyes:

Ohnoses!

How long until this Holocaust law is created in the United States?

Who knows. ^^ It might not even happen though.

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that Germany still feels ashamed of it past and is still trying to prove that it isnt the country it was during Hilter.

Germany shouldn't have to prove anything. The Soviet Union wiped out 30 million people yet you don't see russians walking around on this guilt trip.

Edited by Mars
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Germany shouldn't have to prove anything. The Soviet Union wiped out 30 million people yet you don't see russians walking around on this guilt trip.

yeah but that wasn't targeted at a specific group or groups of people, the holocaust was

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As much as I dislike the idea of folks denying that the holocaust happened(it is rather well documented; you can argue numbers of dead jews, but not the fact that the jews were the goal), I think people should have the right to think whatever they wish; Freedom of speech is important.

Don't get me wrong, there are times when your words can put into action events that you may have to pay for(i.e. the manson family murders or screaming fire in a crowded theatre resulting in injuries), but people should have the right to express themselves, that should be one of the fundamental human rights; it is a double edged sword and can be incredibly frustrating. Fred Phelps of the westboro baptist church is a great example; his group protests soldiers funerals with disgusting messages about how america is paying for being accepting of gays. As much as I loathe the creep he has the right to say the things he does. If however he inspires some of his followers to go out and actually harm gay people then he should stand trial for such things, but in my opinion he should be able to say it, just as those who disagree with him can express their disgust as well...

Limiting freedoms is one heck of a slippery slope. Today it is holocaust denial, tomorrow could be public demonstrations against their government. When people have the power to limit what others say, those in control could easily fall into protecting their own interest at the expense of freedoms that should have never been infringed upon in the first place.

Over the decades I can see how speaking out against a war automatically brands you as a liberal, regardless of the truth of the matter. It is somehow considered unpatriotic to question your leaders and their motives and there are some extremists that react so far out of proportion to the situation that it is disturbing.

In my opinion you cannot put limits on what people can speak about; the freedom of speech and the press are so critical to a free country.

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I think it was the subject matter that was the kicker. They, better than anyone else on the earth, know what happened during WWII. I applaud them for not looking like fools. It's a sensitive subject for the Germans. They're trying to do the right thing, for them.

In the United States they don't lock you up for being an activist. They use counterintelligence to try and imprison your mind.

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In my opinion you cannot put limits on what people can speak about; the freedom of speech and the press are so critical to a free country.

What about hate speech then or a threatening remarks? I understand you can go to jail for simply saying that you want to kill the President.

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What about hate speech then or a threatening remarks? I understand you can go to jail for simply saying that you want to kill the President.

As for the president; there is a specific law about threats to him, not sure what law it is though, but it is a special condition. "Hate speech" is covered, but again you can be held responsible for the results of your speech... i.e. you give a speech at a klan meeting saying blacks should be beat up and one of your members does so, the fact that you inspired that attack is no longer covered by "the freedom of speech". I am not saying that you attend a klan meeting, just as an example... The manson family murders are a great example of this; Charles manson never actually killed anyone; he just inspired his "family" to do the work. There have also been attacks inspired by racist groups that have fallen into the same kind of situation. Racist groups can actually get permits to have protests in public even though what they say falls under "hate speech" of course if violence breaks out, they can be prosecuted under specific "hate crimes", but that is a different matter.

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I believe in free speech as much as the next guy, but there is big difference between just speaking your mind, and setting up a hate network like he did.

Here's a little background on the guy, he's getting exactly what he deserves.

In the 1970s, Zündel founded a small publishing house called Samisdat Publishers. Samisdat initially produced UFO-related books, some of them written pseudonymously by Zündel. Within a few years it began disseminating Nazi sympathizer literature, including Zündel's The Hitler We Loved and Why, Richard Verrall's Did Six Million Really Die?, and works by Malcolm Ross.

By the early 1980s, Samisdat Publications had grown into a worldwide distributor of Nazi and neo-Nazi posters, audiotapes, and memorabilia, as well as pamphlets and books devoted to Holocaust denial and Allied and Zionist "war crimes", claiming a mailing list of 29,000 in the United States alone. Advertisements for Samisdat Publications were purchased in well-known reputable American magazines and even comic books. West Germany became another large market, in violation of their Volksverhetzung (incitement of the masses) laws preventing Holocaust denial and dissemination of Nazi and neo-Nazi material, going so far as to send mass mailings to every member of the West German Bundestag (parliament).

In December 1980, the West German Federal Ministry of Finance told the Bundestag that between January 1978, and December 1979, "200 shipments of right-wing extremist and neo-Nazi content including books, periodicals, symbols, decorations, films, cassettes, and records" had been intercepted entering West Germany; these shipments "came overwhelmingly from Canada." On April 23, 1981, the West German government sent a letter to the Canadian Jewish Congress, confirming that the source of the material was Samisdat Publishers.

From 1981 to 1982 Zündel had his mailing privileges suspended by the Canadian government on the grounds that he had been using the mail to send hate propaganda, a criminal offence in Canada. Zündel then began shipping from a post office box in Niagara Falls, New York, until the ban on his mailing in Canada was lifted in January 1983.

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Zundel

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"I think a lot of us can take a very deep breath and move on to other things -- other than thinking of Ernst Zundel anymore."

That's so stupid it's nearly funny. If it wasn't so pathetic.

That's some mighty thin skin (and a very limited attention span) when you are fixiatied on just one blabbermouth. You mean to tell me that one guy with his words caused so much suffering within a community? Haven't they heard of the word 'ignore'? It not like he runs a country or anything...

Give me a break. This is law is pure BS. The Jews need to stop victimizing themselves over this and move on. I'm certainly not anit-jewish in anyway, but special laws needed to preserve thier mental sanctity will only backfire. Ignoring Ernst would have been much more effective. Now he's front and center, instead of on the margins where he should be.

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Unfortunately, there is a whole segment of the population that won't ignore this man. Con men like him target people who feel outcast by society, or somehow feel different, alone, abandoned, or unwanted. This man is just spreading hate. It's easy for someone who is mentally, emotionally, and intellectually secure to say we should just ignore him, but not eveyone is equipped to do so. Should these people be protected from themselves? Will putting this guy in jail protect them? Probably not.

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While I am used now to bad geography from people on this site, how does a German law work out as 'Europe's limited freedom of speech'. Beleive it or not peeps, most of Europe is not German

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Talon, you are denying this is a European problem. You basically believe that this is only a German problem.

Tons of European nations have these extremely pro-zionist laws and "Anti-hatespeech" trash.

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Talon's point is valid, the title is a bit sensationalistic and mis-representitive for what is specifically a German affair. We tend to frown on deliberate mis-representations and/or interpretations. Undocumented and unsupportive 'generalized' statements aren't an acceptable justification for Europe's inclusion. Editing title to clearly define the nature of the subject being addressed.

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