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#16    Simbi Laveau

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 03:35 PM

View Postjoc, on 22 November 2012 - 06:43 PM, said:

Very interesting read about Munster...but as far as Occupy...I don't see any connection.

I don't see a connection because Occupy was a political campaign born movement...not a real movement...and...where are all the occupiers now?  As soon as they weren't getting paid for camping...they left.
That's not quite true. First ,I don't know anyone who got paid ,but people donated money . The movement still exists,but I don't know if you noticed,they beat them .Killed their pets ,made up LIES about them to make them look bad in the press .
Fuhrer Bloomberg and his NYPD cronies abused those people,and made it so they cannot even meet in public places ,without half of them ending up bloodied ,arrested and abused ,and then lied about in the media .

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#17    me-wonders

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 06:48 PM

View Postjoc, on 22 November 2012 - 06:43 PM, said:

Very interesting read about Munster...but as far as Occupy...I don't see any connection.

I don't see a connection because Occupy was a political campaign born movement...not a real movement...and...where are all the occupiers now?  As soon as they weren't getting paid for camping...they left.

I guess you would have to be in the camp to get the connection.  Occupy started as a political movement, but it drew in the worst element.  Homeless folks wanting to avoid trouble, had a territorial conflict with the Occupy people, here in Eugene, Oregon.  Like the conflict was so bad, everyone agreed to move the Occupy camp to a completely different area.  Like what happened at Munster, outsiders who cared nothing about anyone but themselves, moved in with their drugs and alcohol to take advantage of camping without worry of police chasing them away, and the use of out houses and free meals.  When the organizers of Occupy tried to get rid of the real trouble makers, they were told, because the camp was in a public park, they couldn't throw anyone out.  When the heavy rains and cold winds came it was terrible, as people lost their tempers and got real ugly and the more civilized people and access to resources stopped coming to the camp,  Did you get the part that this camp was closed when someone was brutally killed?   How about the part that our Occupy remained organized and is hoping to open another camp this winter?

The movement rapidly shifted from a political one to human welfare issue. I dropped out because of the resistance to leadership and more directed structure, therefore, complete anarchy.  However, plenty of well meaning people who enjoy socializing hung together and continue to work city hall for a homeless camp.  I doubt that anyone is being realistic about the number of homeless people who are mentally disturbed, and the number of homeless people who can't work because of being treated for cancer?   Much of the suffering is the result of good intentions and a failure to accept reality.   Dealing with these diverse people as though one size fits all, is insane.   Everyone is not a person like you, and some of them can not be because of serious mental disorders.   To relate to Munster, people came from all over, and what started as a manageable situation began unmanageable.  We can not know how many of people were suffering from mental disorders, but we can know, a percentage of people do suffer mental disorder.  Some of the cause is organic as in brain defect, and some mental disorders are caused by life experiences, or mental disorders were caused by mold in rye, and today intentional drug use.  You may not want to sleep in the tent next to a vet suffering post trauma syndrome, when the heavy rain and cold wind has soaked everyone and tensions are high.  This might not be the best for a cancer patient..  Dealing with Californians who come to find a safe refuge from the violence they dealt with, but come without the clothing nor camp gear for cold, wet weather, is a challenge when you have no resources and can't even get the money to wash and dry clothes and bedding at the laundry mat.  We are talking a lot of fear, stress, pain and suffering, and the talk about evil is well intentioned, but has to come from a sheltered experience of life.  

As for evil, Kahlil Gibran said "For what is evil but good tortured by its own hunger and thirst?"  I have a memory of struggling to keep my sanity many years ago, and come out of that with empathy of for those who kill their own families.  When you hear of someone who has done terrible things, you might want to think "There but for the grace of God go I".   As said, there are different reasons people do terrible things.  It can be a temporary situation or a life long torment as it is for those born with mental disorders.   I especially have sympathy of women who marry before becoming independent, and than are tortured by their husbands, until they snap and kill their husbands.  A religion that insist that Satan is real and has power over us, is not a good belief for those who find themselves in a bad situation for a long time.   On the other hand, yesterday was Thansksgiving and my Thanksgiving was perfect, I don't want to end this with the ugly truths of being human.  A good day with family and friends can have a terribly effect on us.  When the number of good days are greater than the bad days, we do better well.   But back to the bad, what do you do with people whose bad days out number the good days, and they have forgotten what is like be happy?


#18    joc

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 11:10 PM

View Postme-wonders, on 23 November 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

I guess you would have to be in the camp to get the connection.  Occupy started as a political movement, but it drew in the worst element.  Homeless folks wanting to avoid trouble, had a territorial conflict with the Occupy people, here in Eugene, Oregon.  Like the conflict was so bad, everyone agreed to move the Occupy camp to a completely different area.  Like what happened at Munster, outsiders who cared nothing about anyone but themselves, moved in with their drugs and alcohol to take advantage of camping without worry of police chasing them away, and the use of out houses and free meals.  When the organizers of Occupy tried to get rid of the real trouble makers, they were told, because the camp was in a public park, they couldn't throw anyone out.  When the heavy rains and cold winds came it was terrible, as people lost their tempers and got real ugly and the more civilized people and access to resources stopped coming to the camp,  Did you get the part that this camp was closed when someone was brutally killed?   How about the part that our Occupy remained organized and is hoping to open another camp this winter?

The movement rapidly shifted from a political one to human welfare issue. I dropped out because of the resistance to leadership and more directed structure, therefore, complete anarchy.  However, plenty of well meaning people who enjoy socializing hung together and continue to work city hall for a homeless camp.  I doubt that anyone is being realistic about the number of homeless people who are mentally disturbed, and the number of homeless people who can't work because of being treated for cancer?   Much of the suffering is the result of good intentions and a failure to accept reality.   Dealing with these diverse people as though one size fits all, is insane.   Everyone is not a person like you, and some of them can not be because of serious mental disorders.   To relate to Munster, people came from all over, and what started as a manageable situation began unmanageable.  We can not know how many of people were suffering from mental disorders, but we can know, a percentage of people do suffer mental disorder.  Some of the cause is organic as in brain defect, and some mental disorders are caused by life experiences, or mental disorders were caused by mold in rye, and today intentional drug use.  You may not want to sleep in the tent next to a vet suffering post trauma syndrome, when the heavy rain and cold wind has soaked everyone and tensions are high.  This might not be the best for a cancer patient..  Dealing with Californians who come to find a safe refuge from the violence they dealt with, but come without the clothing nor camp gear for cold, wet weather, is a challenge when you have no resources and can't even get the money to wash and dry clothes and bedding at the laundry mat.  We are talking a lot of fear, stress, pain and suffering, and the talk about evil is well intentioned, but has to come from a sheltered experience of life.  

As for evil, Kahlil Gibran said "For what is evil but good tortured by its own hunger and thirst?"  I have a memory of struggling to keep my sanity many years ago, and come out of that with empathy of for those who kill their own families.  When you hear of someone who has done terrible things, you might want to think "There but for the grace of God go I".   As said, there are different reasons people do terrible things.  It can be a temporary situation or a life long torment as it is for those born with mental disorders.   I especially have sympathy of women who marry before becoming independent, and than are tortured by their husbands, until they snap and kill their husbands.  A religion that insist that Satan is real and has power over us, is not a good belief for those who find themselves in a bad situation for a long time.   On the other hand, yesterday was Thansksgiving and my Thanksgiving was perfect, I don't want to end this with the ugly truths of being human.  A good day with family and friends can have a terribly effect on us.  When the number of good days are greater than the bad days, we do better well.   But back to the bad, what do you do with people whose bad days out number the good days, and they have forgotten what is like be happy?
I understand better the connection you were talking about.  I have memories...not good ones...of also struggling with my sanity...yet, I have no empathy for people who harm others in a violent way.  None.  Destroy them...that is my solution...hang them by the neck until dead for all the world to see while their 'crimes against humanity' are yet in the recent memory of the populace.  Thus so doing leaves lasting impressions in the minds of many that controlling one's emotional responses is necessary and correct...and for those that cannot or willnot...a public hanging and a cheap funeral...end of problem.  Simplistic?  No.  It worked that way for centuries until the late 1960s or so.   But I digress...

The problem of homelessness is a huge problem.  There are no simple answers and there really don't seem to be many complicated ones either.  It is a diverse population.  And they have real needs...hunger, health issues, and the list goes on...and my heart bleeds for them all.  I am not a bleeding heart liberal by any means...and yet I have great compassion and empathy for the needy.  And mental health issues are a great part of the homeless plight.  I don't have any solutions really...do what we can to help feed them and give them shelter...and teach those who are willing to learn how to compete in the market place.

Part of the Occupy problem is the mindset promoted by the Propoganda of the Media and the Federal Government.  Them vs Us.  It is wrong.  And the Washington Party does it at every turn...Black vs. White vs Hispanic vs Chinese and on and on....Rich vs Poor..The Beautiful vs The Ugly...The smart vs the ignorant...the Conservatives vs the Liberals...the Democrats vs the Republicans...this is not a game of anyone vs anyone else...this is real life going on here and we have an irrational and out of touch government that only seeks more power for itself as a soltuion to anything.  More Power...vs...anyone that stands in their way.

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#19    Babe Ruth

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 02:11 PM

I am not convinced that our dark side IS repressed.  Today, I am not certain that it is even balanced out or offset by our good side.  The last decade is certainly not a time of peace, with military aggression surging across the globe.

We have institutionalized torture and killing.  It seems the Dark Side rules is many ways.


#20    SpiritWalker7

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 04:30 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 24 November 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

I am not convinced that our dark side IS repressed.  Today, I am not certain that it is even balanced out or offset by our good side.  The last decade is certainly not a time of peace, with military aggression surging across the globe.

We have institutionalized torture and killing.  It seems the Dark Side rules is many ways.

Have to agree with you there. There will always be hostility and aggression, but I wouldn't consider it all evil. What you're saying about military aggression doesn't necessarily mean that evil is on the rise. These wars were to keep the evil at bay. All of the crazy news reports about the insane and almost animal acts that I read every day leads me to believe that things may be getting worse, but people have always done evil things. The difference is, we put everything in the news these days, while alot of the things that have happened in the past aren't posted all over the place. It's always easier to see the bad than the good.


#21    me-wonders

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 04:34 PM

View Postjoc, on 23 November 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

I understand better the connection you were talking about.  I have memories...not good ones...of also struggling with my sanity...yet, I have no empathy for people who harm others in a violent way.  None.  Destroy them...that is my solution...hang them by the neck until dead for all the world to see while their 'crimes against humanity' are yet in the recent memory of the populace.  Thus so doing leaves lasting impressions in the minds of many that controlling one's emotional responses is necessary and correct...and for those that cannot or willnot...a public hanging and a cheap funeral...end of problem.  Simplistic?  No.  It worked that way for centuries until the late 1960s or so.   But I digress...

The problem of homelessness is a huge problem.  There are no simple answers and there really don't seem to be many complicated ones either.  It is a diverse population.  And they have real needs...hunger, health issues, and the list goes on...and my heart bleeds for them all.  I am not a bleeding heart liberal by any means...and yet I have great compassion and empathy for the needy.  And mental health issues are a great part of the homeless plight.  I don't have any solutions really...do what we can to help feed them and give them shelter...and teach those who are willing to learn how to compete in the market place.

Part of the Occupy problem is the mindset promoted by the Propoganda of the Media and the Federal Government.  Them vs Us.  It is wrong.  And the Washington Party does it at every turn...Black vs. White vs Hispanic vs Chinese and on and on....Rich vs Poor..The Beautiful vs The Ugly...The smart vs the ignorant...the Conservatives vs the Liberals...the Democrats vs the Republicans...this is not a game of anyone vs anyone else...this is real life going on here and we have an irrational and out of touch government that only seeks more power for itself as a soltuion to anything.  More Power...vs...anyone that stands in their way.

A serious issue in Britain right now is the Muslim belief that evil jin possess people.  This is equal to a Christian notion that demons can possess people.  The problem is people with treatable mental disorders are seeing Muslims who specialize in dealing with possession, instead of the seeking medical help.  I have a real negative reaction to killing people who do bad things, because I know good people can go through really bad times.  In the past it was completely acceptable to kill people who behaved abnormally.  I think some of us like to think, well educated and civilized people, take a more scientific approach to managing human problems. We are not being as scientific and responsive as I think we should be.

This applies to the way we deal with homeless people.  Number one- you do not open a camp and let everyone in and insist no one is the leader, and everyone is free to do his own thing!!!  This is insane!   It is ignorant and a lot of denial of reality.   Untrained security staff can make matters worse as they do not recognize the mental cases and know how to deal with them.  

We have an excellent place for homeless people to gather inside or outside, have something to eat, shower, do laundry.  I don't know if they have taken on case management by professionals, but they should.  We also have Cahoots, which we can call instead of the police, and whereas the police escalate problems, Cahoots deescalates them.  Unfortunately we are not funding them as well we fund the police.  We need to shift our focus on how to deal with human problems, and be more realistic.  It is hard being human, and for some humans it is harder.   A civilized society is one that recognizes this, and uses science to deal with the reality.   A homeless camp needs to involve Red Cross, Cahoots, the charity and mental health services.  Sorry, kids, there needs to be rules and people do need to follow them.

I think Obama is pretty awesome when if comes to understanding human problems and solutions.  He is coming up as a world leader in ending conflict and getting diverse people to work together.   There are political and economic reasons for him not being able to give his best to the human problems that require a good economy and cooperation, but hopefully those problems are passing and he will be allowed to shine where he can do most good, getting the world to accept diversity and work together.

Edited by me-wonders, 24 November 2012 - 05:05 PM.


#22    me-wonders

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 05:01 PM

View PostNikkiAidyn, on 24 November 2012 - 04:30 PM, said:

Have to agree with you there. There will always be hostility and aggression, but I wouldn't consider it all evil. What you're saying about military aggression doesn't necessarily mean that evil is on the rise. These wars were to keep the evil at bay. All of the crazy news reports about the insane and almost animal acts that I read every day leads me to believe that things may be getting worse, but people have always done evil things. The difference is, we put everything in the news these days, while alot of the things that have happened in the past aren't posted all over the place. It's always easier to see the bad than the good.

Another difference is, we can't move west and avoid each other.  I am really excited about the New Age, a time of high tech and peace, and the end of tyranny.

In the past we did resolve a lot of problems by killing.  We killed individuals who flipped out, and the people on the land we wanted to take, and a big problem that Hebrews had, was the Egyptians would periodically kill their sons, in an effort to have population control, and the Spartans also periodically killed slaves to have population control.   It is absolutely awesome, that today when such behavior is rising a country, the whole world is looking on and reacting.   People in the US, France, Britain, etc, are appalled by what is happening in Syria, and Burma etc..  Our consciousness is not as it was in earlier times.  You are right, we are using our military to stop what has become unacceptable human behavior.  

Because we can not avoid each other, for the first time in human history, we have to find better solutions to our problems.  Take high employment and poverty for instance.  Like Munster or an Occupy camp, we can no longer have one big free for all, and ignore poverty.   We are doing a piss poor job of this, but how are we going to employ everyone around the world?  Come on, let us get real about this.  We have more humanity than needed, and if war is not going to be the solution, what is?  Don't give me the conservative verse liberal arguments, but a scientific explanation of how to employee the masses around the world, and provide a decent standard of living for everyone.  Never in the history of mankind have we had the technology we have today, and at the same time been so unable to avoid our problems.   For the first time, we are backed in a corner and have to figure out how to resolve our problems, because there is no way to avoid them.   There are no more islands to put our unwanted on.   If we commit genocide on our neighbors, we will not have good international relationships, and no country does well without good international relationships.  It is always darkest before the dawn and the New Age can not be avoided, because we can continue doing things as we did in the past.

Edited by me-wonders, 24 November 2012 - 05:10 PM.


#23    joc

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 05:03 PM

Quote

I think Obama is pretty awesome when if comes to understanding human problems and solutions.  He is coming up as a world leader in ending conflict and getting diverse people to work together.  
Yeah, that was a pretty awesome photo-op/fly-over he did in NJ after Sandy....and the way he is instrumental in the current Egypt/Israel/Hamas conflict..pretty frickin' awesome there too...

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#24    me-wonders

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 05:20 PM

Given what Simbi Laveau said of Occupy, the media and cities tightening the use of public lands, and stepping up a police response to crowds, this is almost embarrass, but  for the moment Obama's visit to Burma has made an important difference.  

http://www.usatoday....reedom/1722637/


#25    Drayno

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 09:31 PM

Every one has negativity, and every one has feelings of inadequacy.. I experienced a very dark day a few days ago from various sources of stress. After meditating today and finding some serenity, I found how when we do not mind our passion it governs us. To be mindful is to accept and execute compassion, but not to be ruled by stress. We can act like someone else entirely different in the face of anger or strong emotion.. To find the small tide in the context of a huge and roaring storm is difficult, but in my case, the results are very rewarding..

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#26    me-wonders

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 04:56 PM

View PostDrayno, on 24 November 2012 - 09:31 PM, said:

Every one has negativity, and every one has feelings of inadequacy.. I experienced a very dark day a few days ago from various sources of stress. After meditating today and finding some serenity, I found how when we do not mind our passion it governs us. To be mindful is to accept and execute compassion, but not to be ruled by stress. We can act like someone else entirely different in the face of anger or strong emotion.. To find the small tide in the context of a huge and roaring storm is difficult, but in my case, the results are very rewarding..

Agreed.  Sometimes I get a little irritated about my failure to have better control over my thoughts.  Our brains chatter and it seems most of that chattering serves no useful purpose, and sometime it distracts use from useful thinking.  I have a Buddhist chant sometimes quiets my mind.  Also, when doing homework and having trouble focusing, it can be helpful to focus on a computer game for while and then return to studies.   A game with math qualities would be best for shifting to analytical thinking.  Perhaps if we better understood our brains, we could improve our use of them?

This is a nice explanation of mediation and disengaging from the chatter in our minds.

http://www.howtolear...e-of-meditation

The man speaks of how exercising in a gym is at first difficult and how it gets easier each time.  I have known people who don't like all the chattering in their heads, but neither do they want to practice the discipline of mediating.  I must confess to that.  Chanting is easy to do whenever I want to stop the voice, but I always desire to be busy.  I can enjoy long walks alone the river or listen to lectures, and constantly remind myself to focus on the beauty of nature or the subject of lecture.  But I don't do well at sitting still and trying to make my mind blank.  I wonder why?  It is my mind.  Why is it so hard for us to stop the chatter?

Edited by me-wonders, 25 November 2012 - 05:36 PM.


#27    AwakenAscension

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:58 AM

People talk like there is a "dark, animal" side to us and a "civilized, human" side. Nothing could be more ridiculous! How many thousands of years does it take for people to figure this out??
What you call "civilization" (domestication) is the SOLE root cause of all unnatural acts of aggression and over indulgences. All outbursts of needing to "have" something or be "better" than someone or any urge that causes unnecessary harm, is all born of how warped humans become by the idea of "property" (having or being). You see it all the time, in every other species, too. When you take animals and put them in fences and tell them what to do, they eventually do very strange things, that don't seem natural or make sense at all.

If humans were so horribly harmful to one another NATURALLY, then back when there were only a handfull of people, with no laws, civilization, regulation, AT ALL, they would have killed each other off, and not flourished into such a huge population. NO it is not the NATURE of humans that is "dark", it is what society does to them that makes them that way. It all began the first time someone said "Hey that piece of the ground is good, but it's MINE. I'll let you use it, if you....(whatever)", then evolved into the complex governing structures you have today.

"Oh but we need laws, otherwise people would all go crazy and do whatever they want." Yea, NOW they would. But what I'm saying, is that if people never started trying to control each other in the first place, no one would ever WANT to do these "dark" things. So I dont buy the whole "dark side vs civilized" thing and not really sure what occupy is.. wasn't that a protest on wallstreet or something?

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#28    Lilly

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:08 PM

Well, you know what they say, "Come over to the dark side, we have cookies"

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#29    Babe Ruth

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:47 PM

View PostAwakenAscension, on 27 November 2012 - 03:58 AM, said:

People talk like there is a "dark, animal" side to us and a "civilized, human" side. Nothing could be more ridiculous! How many thousands of years does it take for people to figure this out??
What you call "civilization" (domestication) is the SOLE root cause of all unnatural acts of aggression and over indulgences. All outbursts of needing to "have" something or be "better" than someone or any urge that causes unnecessary harm, is all born of how warped humans become by the idea of "property" (having or being). You see it all the time, in every other species, too. When you take animals and put them in fences and tell them what to do, they eventually do very strange things, that don't seem natural or make sense at all.

If humans were so horribly harmful to one another NATURALLY, then back when there were only a handfull of people, with no laws, civilization, regulation, AT ALL, they would have killed each other off, and not flourished into such a huge population. NO it is not the NATURE of humans that is "dark", it is what society does to them that makes them that way. It all began the first time someone said "Hey that piece of the ground is good, but it's MINE. I'll let you use it, if you....(whatever)", then evolved into the complex governing structures you have today.

"Oh but we need laws, otherwise people would all go crazy and do whatever they want." Yea, NOW they would. But what I'm saying, is that if people never started trying to control each other in the first place, no one would ever WANT to do these "dark" things. So I dont buy the whole "dark side vs civilized" thing and not really sure what occupy is.. wasn't that a protest on wallstreet or something?

Good post!

"The Dark Side" is rather a figure of speech.  A convenient way to describe certain human behavior.


#30    me-wonders

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:40 PM

View PostAwakenAscension, on 27 November 2012 - 03:58 AM, said:

People talk like there is a "dark, animal" side to us and a "civilized, human" side. Nothing could be more ridiculous! How many thousands of years does it take for people to figure this out??
What you call "civilization" (domestication) is the SOLE root cause of all unnatural acts of aggression and over indulgences. All outbursts of needing to "have" something or be "better" than someone or any urge that causes unnecessary harm, is all born of how warped humans become by the idea of "property" (having or being). You see it all the time, in every other species, too. When you take animals and put them in fences and tell them what to do, they eventually do very strange things, that don't seem natural or make sense at all.

If humans were so horribly harmful to one another NATURALLY, then back when there were only a handfull of people, with no laws, civilization, regulation, AT ALL, they would have killed each other off, and not flourished into such a huge population. NO it is not the NATURE of humans that is "dark", it is what society does to them that makes them that way. It all began the first time someone said "Hey that piece of the ground is good, but it's MINE. I'll let you use it, if you....(whatever)", then evolved into the complex governing structures you have today.

"Oh but we need laws, otherwise people would all go crazy and do whatever they want." Yea, NOW they would. But what I'm saying, is that if people never started trying to control each other in the first place, no one would ever WANT to do these "dark" things. So I dont buy the whole "dark side vs civilized" thing and not really sure what occupy is.. wasn't that a protest on wallstreet or something?

I guess it will take as many thousands of years to figure out what you are sure of, as it takes people to figure out how to discuss things without being offensive.  I am not sure if being insulting comes naturally to humans, but I know they can learn to be pleasing and much more fun to engage with.





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