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Ancient mysteries revealed in Turkmen desert


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#16    Abramelin

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 06:34 PM

Central Asian seals, seal impressions and parallels in Indus Script hieroglyphs
Seals/seal impressions from Mesopotamia and the Indus region have been found at Gonur Tepe in Turkmenistan.



About two dozen sealings and ten sealed bullae (some baked) have been discovered at Gonur and Togolok. I.S. Klotchkov suggests that signs on a potsherd of Gonur contain Elamite linear script. (Klotchkov, 1998, Signs on a potsherd from Gonur (on the question of the script used in Margiana), Ancient civilizations from Scythia to Siberia, 5(2): 165-176; cf. Klotchkov, IS, 1999, Glyptics of Margiana, Ancient civilizations from Scythia to Siberia, 6(2): 41-62.

Gonur and Toglok are type sites of BMAC - Bactria Margiana Archaeological Complex (ca. 2500 to 1500 BCE)extended over parts of northern Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, southern Uzbekistan, Tadjikistan, eastern Iran and Baluchistan.

Language of the BMAC


http://bharatkalyan9...mpressions.html


http://newindian.act...mentID=44925854


#17    Abramelin

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 06:40 PM

View Postseeder, on 08 April 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

Good find and very impressive :tu:  Another poss reason for the style could be as effective heat insulation. Almost reminds me, a bit anyway, of the Moroccan houses used in the first star wars movie.

You mean these things:




I was thinking of bunkers:

Posted Image

Posted Image


Or Da Vinci's fortress:




#18    seeder

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 07:24 PM

any shiny vitrified rocks at all? If so its got to be them darn aliens again!!

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#19    Abramelin

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 07:28 PM

View Postseeder, on 08 April 2013 - 07:24 PM, said:

any shiny vitrified rocks at all? If so its got to be them darn aliens again!!

"Sure", but this one is in Anatolia, to the west of Gonur Tepe

Posted Image


#20    third_eye

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 11:22 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 08 April 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:

What I found intriguing is the shape of the houses:

Posted Image


~image snip

They almost look like bunkers.

notice the 'triangular' shape windows/opening ?

another intriguing thing is the 'building' seems carved 'into' the landscape rather than 'built' up which makes it more similar to petra than giza or the meso american sites

Posted Image

Quote

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#21    Abramelin

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 06:23 AM

View Postthird_eye, on 08 April 2013 - 11:22 PM, said:

notice the 'triangular' shape windows/opening ?

another intriguing thing is the 'building' seems carved 'into' the landscape rather than 'built' up which makes it more similar to petra than giza or the meso american sites

Posted Image

The structures , whatever they are, are rather small, and - I think - made of mud-brick.

From the "Black Sands" trailer:

Posted Image


#22    TheSearcher

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 07:25 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 09 April 2013 - 06:23 AM, said:

The structures , whatever they are, are rather small, and - I think - made of mud-brick.

From the "Black Sands" trailer:

Posted Image

I was about to remark upon the same, the article says mud-brick rather than carved out of rock. Besides it does not look like carved out of rock anyway. And on a more fun level, makes me think of a "hobbit industrial town" :P

Edited by TheSearcher, 09 April 2013 - 07:25 AM.

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#23    third_eye

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 08:19 AM

Posted Image

I remember this guy .... :lol:

mud bricks ... I didn't remember that , thanks

one thing though .... does mud bricks last for so long ? that fortified wall looks mighty solid still

Quote

' ... life and death carry on as they always have ~ and always will, only the dreamer is gone ~ behind the flow of imagination, beyond any effort to be still
dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions, only the dreamer is gone ~ the dream never ends
'

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third_eye ' s cavern ~ bring own beer


#24    Frank Merton

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 08:34 AM

There are only a limited number of ways to build a building, so that similaritiues of construction methods and gross style should not be over-interpreted into implying connections.  It is in the fine details of style (such as reliefs or ceramics) where such methods begin to become useful.


#25    Abramelin

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 09:05 AM

View Postthird_eye, on 09 April 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

Posted Image

I remember this guy .... :lol:

mud bricks ... I didn't remember that , thanks

one thing though .... does mud bricks last for so long ? that fortified wall looks mighty solid still

About that guy:

While some researchers have applauded Sarianidi for his dedication, others view him as an eccentric, employing brutish and old-fashioned techniques. These days Western archaeologists typically unearth sites with dental instruments and mesh screens, meticulously sifting soil for traces of pollen, seeds, and ceramics. Sarianidi uses bulldozers to expose old foundations, largely ignores botanical finds, and publishes few details on layers, ceramics, and other mainstays of modern archaeology. Ceramics that he has unearthed and which for millennia have remained protected deep in the sand now lie strewn about his sites with visitors stepping over them as they walk around. Local residents and animals also climb all over the fragile earthen structures. His reports are also sensationalistic, conjectural and poorly researched. Sarianidi’s conclusions are routinely contradicted by a more sober analysis. Nevertheless, his findings have provided rich fodder for those captivated by the fantasy generated by his claims. It is unfortunate that his lack of credibility by serious scholars may obscure his other accomplishments. A further tragedy that may overshadow his work is that paradoxically he may have a disservice in unearthing the ruins. The exposed ruins have been left with no protection and are being rapidly eroded.

http://slowianin.wor...tag/bronze-age/


About why the structures lasted for so long:

The discovery of the ruins in the Merv region may be a mixed blessing. On the one hand the world has become aware of another centre of civilization. On the other hand, the very poor archaeological practices may be the cause of the speedy destruction of the evidence. The following is a quote from Eurasianet.org’s article Turkmenistan: Making a Bid for Cradle-Of-Civilization Status

„In a painful irony, some of the dust that swirls around Gonur-depe comes from the crumbling walls themselves. To study the city, Sarianidi’s team had to remove the protective earthen shield laid down over millennia, thereby exposing the structures beneath to the desert sun and wind. Indeed, today’s photographs of Gonur-depe show a significant deterioration when compared to those of the 1970s and 1980s.”

„Without a greater commitment from the Turkmen state, funding will dry up, the guide said, and Gonur-depe will slowly blow away.”


http://slowianin.wor...tag/bronze-age/


The site I link to is partly in Polish, but most is in English (Google Translator is able to give you an idea what the Polish texts are about, though). It shows dozens of finds, like seals, jewelry, and so on.

Posted Image

Posted Image

Edited by Abramelin, 09 April 2013 - 09:06 AM.


#26    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 10:02 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 08 April 2013 - 06:34 PM, said:

Central Asian seals, seal impressions and parallels in Indus Script hieroglyphs
Seals/seal impressions from Mesopotamia and the Indus region have been found at Gonur Tepe in Turkmenistan.



About two dozen sealings and ten sealed bullae (some baked) have been discovered at Gonur and Togolok. I.S. Klotchkov suggests that signs on a potsherd of Gonur contain Elamite linear script. (Klotchkov, 1998, Signs on a potsherd from Gonur (on the question of the script used in Margiana), Ancient civilizations from Scythia to Siberia, 5(2): 165-176; cf. Klotchkov, IS, 1999, Glyptics of Margiana, Ancient civilizations from Scythia to Siberia, 6(2): 41-62.

Gonur and Toglok are type sites of BMAC - Bactria Margiana Archaeological Complex (ca. 2500 to 1500 BCE)extended over parts of northern Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, southern Uzbekistan, Tadjikistan, eastern Iran and Baluchistan.

Language of the BMAC


http://bharatkalyan9...mpressions.html


http://newindian.act...mentID=44925854
One more ancient lost civilization emerges.
Finds like these prove the fact that us humans do suffer Amnesia over long periods of time where we forget about entire civilizations until they re-emerge.
How many more such finds must be waiting out there.Sadly such wide scale archaeology is not possible in the Saraswati river delta as the place is still occupied today and has been built over many times.

Any idea how they died out?
I suspect a major war around 3000 BC which wiped out many civilizations simultaneously including the Indus Valley Civilization.Probably the first world war.
Mahabharata?
Can you post some pictures of the seals.


#27    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 10:04 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 09 April 2013 - 09:05 AM, said:


Posted Image

This map shows a triangular spread but it was actually a kite shaped spread with the fourth point lying somewhere around the Saraswati delta.


#28    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 10:32 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 07 April 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

My interest here is linguistic, and as far as I know the Indus Valley texts have not been translated and seem to be a linguistic isolate, neither Dravidian nor Indo-European (the language families of most of India today).  Are you implying that the Indus valley civilizations were Indo-European or only that they influenced the Indo-Europeans of central Asia?

(In which case we would presume after they declined and the Indo-Europeans themselves came in, the change would not have been as drastic as is often thought).

I have long held the view that Buddhism and the other non-theistic religions of India stem from pre-Indo-European times, while the polytheism of Hinduism came in with the Indo-Europoean "invasions" -- more likely migrations --(i.e., the similarities of it with Greek and Persian and Norse myth systems -- except lacking the unique Indian ideas of rebirth and karma).

Another somewhat unrelated idea I've long suspected -- that the Indo-Europeans while in central Asia either invented or at least put to good use the wheeled cart, and this one thing goes a long way if not all the way to explaining their surprising wide-spread presence at the dawn of history.
It is more lappropriate to call them Indo Asian, there is no European presence so old in either of these sites. All these sites are in the ambit of Asia and Asia Minor. I believe that this find strengthens the Hypothesis that migrations if any were from the East to the West and not the other way round.

The IVC script is not deciphered hence we do not know for certain which language they spoke,but looking at the geography it is certain that they would have been speaking some sort of Vedic or Sanskrit.

It is entirely possible that the poly theistic religions of the Indo Asians was a Rig Vedic form of Hinduism and Zorastrianism.


#29    Frank Merton

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 10:42 AM

The term Indo-European derives from the fact of the modern-day distribution of the members of this language family.  All modern European languages except Basque, Turkish, and the Finno-Hungarian languages are Indo-European, as well as most of the languages of Iran and Northern India.

There are traces of pre-Indo-European languages in Italy (Etruscan) and in Spain, but the Indo-European toungues dominated when we first get written records.

There has been debate where they originated from and why they came to be so widespread so early.


#30    Abramelin

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 11:41 AM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 09 April 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

One more ancient lost civilization emerges.
Finds like these prove the fact that us humans do suffer Amnesia over long periods of time where we forget about entire civilizations until they re-emerge.
How many more such finds must be waiting out there.Sadly such wide scale archaeology is not possible in the Saraswati river delta as the place is still occupied today and has been built over many times.

Any idea how they died out?
I suspect a major war around 3000 BC which wiped out many civilizations simultaneously including the Indus Valley Civilization.Probably the first world war.
Mahabharata?
Can you post some pictures of the seals.

This is an answer concerning Gonur Tepe:

The site was most likely abandoned after the Murghab River's course moved to the west. Sarianidi declares it as the 5th oldest civilization on earth not just a culture but a lost civilization.

http://www.unexplain...1





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