165 replies to this topic

[lost_shaman]

Saru, on 12 February 2012 - 12:14 PM, said:

The only fact we have to go on here is that we simply don't know what intelligent alien life forms might look like.

Some might look human, some might not - all we can do is speculate. It is illogical to suggest otherwise.

Hey Saru,

I understand your view is a common view held by many people exemplified by Steven Gould who has said, "that if the tape of evolution were replayed a million times, a species like ours would not necessarily evolve."

I agree with Simon Conway Morris, that "the outcomes of evolution are remarkably predictable." My stance here in agreement with Conway Morris is that evolutionary end points are finite not at all infinite. That convergent evolution shows the best designs are arrived at in evolution over and over.

Furthermore, if we are strictly talking about an Alien technological civilization then there have to be some real constraints boilogically speaking in that this species must biologically be able to preform most of the same physical tasks we are biologically able to do that allow us to be a technological civilization. While an Alien planet might be somewhat different than Earth, the basic 'tasks' both 'we' and an Alien technological civilization must be able to preform are going to be very similar.

If the physical tasks a species who acheives technological civilization are basicially very similar to what we are able to do then I agrue that it only stands to reason and logic that such a species would be quite similar to us. Here I'd point out again that I agree with Conway Morris that evolutionary end points are not infinite as many people commonly assume.

[Lilly]

Dr. Conway Morris is a staunch Christian who believes in the concept of guided evolution. It's really no surprize (to me anyway) that he would tend to think that the end result of all evolution (even on other planets) would be humans. Everyone is certainly free to follow their own religious beliefs and apply their faith to the question of alien life, but not everyone is going to choose this option.

[lost_shaman]

MID, on 12 February 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

Disagreeing is one thing.  You do that alot.  However, the manner in which you do doesn't seem tyo be all that healthy.

I tend to think it's unhealthy that you seem to want so badly to attack my character every time I take a position on something that you personally don't approve. Let's be honest, I don't know you from 'Adam' so to speak and I'm not going to change what I have to say based upon whether I have "MID's" approval to think the way I do.

MID, on 12 February 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

I think you are attempting to fuel an argument, Lost.

Just defending my position MID, no more or less than that. If you disagree that's fine but it doesn't mean I'm acting nephariously by defending my position.

MID, on 12 February 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

All we know is life at it's evolved on the Earth.  That's a no brainer, just as it's a no-brainer to realize that the physical bodies that we've evolved have responded to our enironment, and allowed us a tool to become technologically advanced.

Specualtions on other life forms in the vastness of the universe do not result in imaginary life forms.  They result in speculative possibilities.  

To ask for evidence of a different life form, or to seek some fact to substantiate that which can only be speculative is ridiulous.

I did NOT ask for evidence, I asked for someone to think of a body-type other than a bi-pedal hominid that would fit the "bill" for a body-type that could also acheive technological civilization and make an evolutionary argument for it. Is that "unfair" for me to have asked? Yes, I say it was unfair for me to ask simply because I do not believe anyone here could come up with a viable alternative.  

MID, on 12 February 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

There are things we know based upon our studies of the evolution of human bodies.  But, we know nothing of any life anywhere else in the universe (and that statement should make this whole thing very, very clear...).

But it doesn't make things clear. You believe anything is possible in evolution, I believe there are finite possibilites.

MID, on 12 February 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

...The universe?  How many stars, planets, possibilities???
C'mon!  Some evidentiary proof?

Again I didn't ask you for evidence, I did ask for people to think what else could fit the bill?

MID, on 12 February 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

I could ask you to prove that hominid life is the only viable intelligent form, just as you want some proof of another viable form.   You can't prove it, any more than anyone else can show you evidence of another possibility.

You mean if I told you multiple bi-pedal Hominid species were able to make real tools and devolop simple forms of technology that you'd consider that a fluke and that any other random 'animal' with a different body-type could do the same?

MID, on 12 February 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

The argument goes nowhere.  

It's fodder for interesting discussion, but in no way should it be license to bait people into an argument about nothing.

For you the argument means nothing, I am interested in the discussion. If that makes me a 'bad' person then I'm guilty!

[lost_shaman]

Lilly, on 13 February 2012 - 03:00 AM, said:

Dr. Conway Morris is a staunch Christian who believes in the concept of guided evolution. It's really no surprize (to me anyway) that he would tend to think that the end result of all evolution (even on other planets) would be humans. Everyone is certainly free to follow their own religious beliefs and apply their faith to the question of alien life, but not everyone is going to choose this option.

It is true that he is a Christian, but he is also a scientist and he's said many times that his opinion about evolution is based on evidence not his "Christianity". I agree in that what he say's about evolution is logical and not 'faith' based in anyway.

[lost_shaman]

Lilly, on 12 February 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

"But man, proud man,
Drest in a little brief authority,
Most ignorant of what he ’s most assured,
His glassy essence, like an angry ape,
Plays such fantastic tricks before high heaven
As make the angels weep." ~Measure for Measure

The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterwards looks for victory.
- Sun Tzu

[quillius]

Lilly, on 11 February 2012 - 11:55 AM, said:

That's one weird alien those guys described. However, all one really has there is a personal story, no real way (that I can think of) to corroborate it. When push comes to shove the hard evidence for alien visitation is simply lacking.

In a case like this, yes hard evidence is lacking, it does stand to reason though that even if this story is true this doesnt mean any evidence should exist.

However, its not the case I was pointing out (as that would be a serious derail ) its more the creature depicted. I was curious to see if both LS and yourself would class this as 'human' type alien or not?

[quillius]

oops forgot to add a quote to continue the fashion  


Evolution-
But in fact, when you try to model that on a computer you find that because of the very structure of matter and of the chemical bonds that are the basis of every organism, evolution is not random at all. It will tend to follow certain paths.
-Kevin Kelly

[Saru]

lost_shaman, on 13 February 2012 - 02:01 AM, said:

I agree with Simon Conway Morris, that "the outcomes of evolution are remarkably predictable." My stance here in agreement with Conway Morris is that evolutionary end points are finite not at all infinite. That convergent evolution shows the best designs are arrived at in evolution over and over.

Furthermore, if we are strictly talking about an Alien technological civilization then there have to be some real constraints boilogically speaking in that this species must biologically be able to preform most of the same physical tasks we are biologically able to do that allow us to be a technological civilization. While an Alien planet might be somewhat different than Earth, the basic 'tasks' both 'we' and an Alien technological civilization must be able to preform are going to be very similar.

If the physical tasks a species who acheives technological civilization are basicially very similar to what we are able to do then I agrue that it only stands to reason and logic that such a species would be quite similar to us. Here I'd point out again that I agree with Conway Morris that evolutionary end points are not infinite as many people commonly assume.

We have no idea what physical tasks an advanced alien civilization might perform or what the environment would be like in which they would be performing them, it is impossible to make these type of assertions. I'm perfectly open to the idea that the humanoid form might be the most likely evolutionary outcome, what i find unreasonable is your unwillingness to consider any other possibility.

[Lilly]

lost_shaman, on 13 February 2012 - 03:43 AM, said:

It is true that he is a Christian, but he is also a scientist and he's said many times that his opinion about evolution is based on evidence not his "Christianity". I agree in that what he say's about evolution is logical and not 'faith' based in anyway.

Life’s Solution: Inevitable Humans in a Lonely Universe (2003)

Dr. Conway Morris concluded: “It is the knowledge and experience of the Incarnation, the wisdom and warnings given by Jesus in the Gospels, and not least the Resurrection that in the final analysis are all that matters.”

With all due respect, that sounds like Dr. Conway Morris is basing at least part of his opinion on his personal faith. After all, what evidence do we have regarding ET life? *Zip/None/Nada* actually. However, I have no desire to argue about things based on personal opinion (and certainly not about religion) so once again I will opt out of the discussion.

[ThreeDog]

They're is plently of chemical life in the cloud's of Titan. There where sign's of Ancient Civilization on Mar's, ancient behavior shows possible contact with Aliens.

And, there is 100 billion stars in our milky way alone, including our sun, planets probably orbit them. And, they're may be life on them.

They're is plently of chemical life in the cloud's of Titan. There where sign's of Ancient Civilization on Mar's, ancient behavior shows possible contact with Aliens.

And, there is 100 billion stars in our milky way alone, including our sun, planets probably orbit them. And, they're may be life on them.

[Legaia]

Saru, on 13 February 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

We have no idea what physical tasks an advanced alien civilization might perform or what the environment would be like in which they would be performing them, it is impossible to make these type of assertions. I'm perfectly open to the idea that the humanoid form might be the most likely evolutionary outcome, what i find unreasonable is your unwillingness to consider any other possibility.

He's stating his opinion, as is done in any healthy debate. It wouldn't be a discussion or debate if he just agreed with any theory thrown on the table, would it? And the universe is believed to be made up of the same stuff, so I think it would be reasonable to think that an alien civ would have to perform generally the same physical tasks as we do now and we did in the past in order to become "advanced".

[lost_shaman]

Lilly, on 13 February 2012 - 12:25 PM, said:

Life’s Solution: Inevitable Humans in a Lonely Universe (2003)

Dr. Conway Morris concluded: “It is the knowledge and experience of the Incarnation, the wisdom and warnings given by Jesus in the Gospels, and not least the Resurrection that in the final analysis are all that matters.”

With all due respect, that sounds like Dr. Conway Morris is basing at least part of his opinion on his personal faith. After all, what evidence do we have regarding ET life? *Zip/None/Nada* actually. However, I have no desire to argue about things based on personal opinion (and certainly not about religion) so once again I will opt out of the discussion.

Not at all. First that quote comes not from his book, but from the 2005 Boyle lecture.

http://www.stmaryleb...ture/4535373186

Quote

The new Boyle Lectures have been given annually at the parish church of St Mary-le-Bow in the City of London since 2004. These lectures are designed to address topics which explore the relationship between Christianity and our contemporary understanding of the natural world.

Each year, a distinguished theologian or scientist is invited to address this theme through a topic of his or her own choosing, and a responder is invited to respond to the lecturer’s comments.

Given in honor of Robert Boyle (1627 -91) the chosen lecturer is asked to speak about the compatability between Science and faith.

His lecture there had nothing to do with his scientific work in the field of evolution, he is a Darwinist and does not believe in Intelligent design. His work is not Faith based.

Edited by lost_shaman, 13 February 2012 - 07:45 PM.

[Lilly]

Then the webpage I got the quote from was in error? However, did Dr. Conway Morris not say that? Because if he did not make that statement (at all) then someone stands to get into a great deal of trouble. If Dr. Morris did make the statement then it may have only been a typographical error (ie, attributed to the incorrect work, but the correct author).

However, unless Dr. Morris can somehow prove that ET looks like humans, then he is indeed basing his belief on something faith driven. Basically, anyone (Dr. Morris, The Pope, President Obama, you, I) can't come to any such conclusion without proof. And for that we're going to need an ET. There's simply no way to get around that reality, and for that reason I'm opting to leave the discussion.

[lost_shaman]

Saru, on 13 February 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

We have no idea what physical tasks an advanced alien civilization might perform or what the environment would be like in which they would be performing them, it is impossible to make these type of assertions.

I don't believe this is impossible at all. Other civilizations must abide by the laws of physics just as we do. Just as Michio Kaku said in an interview with Astrobiology Magazine in 2004, "Although it is impossible to predict the precise features of such advanced civilizations, their broad outlines can be analyzed using the laws of physics. No matter how many millions of years separate us from them, they still must obey the iron laws of physics, which are now advanced enough to explain everything from sub-atomic particles to the large-scale structure of the universe, through a staggering 43 orders of magnitude." (bold emphasis mine) he goes on to talk about energy consumption, but I see no reason why the same does not apply to biology and evolution of such hypothetical technological species.

So when you think about what tasks a Species must preform in order to achieve a technological civilization these are in basic form many of the same things we are able to do. For our Hominid ancestors once bi-pedalism had taken hold our body plans were almost perfectly suited for the rise of technological civilization with only some relatively minor tweaking in brain size and structure of wrist bones and forearm ect. Bi-pedalism freed our arms and hands from use in locomotion which allowed Hominids to both walk and carry things around, to make tools from things we could gather. Such a thing seems so simple as to be apt to be taken for granted, but an Alien Species that achieves technological civilization must also be able to walk and carry things around too!

Not to over simplify the argument here but just those two simple things, walking and carrying, greatly constrain the physical biology of an Alien technological species. If evolution produces the best possible designs then vertebrates are clearly the top notch design on Earth, and of them the four appendage variety is clearly the best and most versatile design. I see no reason to believe it's heretical in some way to suggest such a design would also be a great if not the likely design in Evolution that takes place on exoplanets where life exists. Is it then so illogical to think bi-pedalism is not a prerequisite in an Alien Species that Evolution dictates will only have four appendages to work with if they must also be able to walk and carry things around, not to mention make and use tools?

I realize this is a simplified version of my argument in an attempt to make the point simply, but this can be greatly expounded upon with little effort. For example an Alien technological species must also use fire therefore such a species must exist on land and the biology of the biosphere must use oxygen just as most life on Earth by and large does.

Saru, on 13 February 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

I'm perfectly open to the idea that the humanoid form might be the most likely evolutionary outcome, what i find unreasonable is your unwillingness to consider any other possibility.

I don't have any unwillingness as you say to consider other possibilities, it's just that I've never seen anyone make a real case for other possibilities. As far as I can tell there is simply a belief that "other possibilities" are limitless and so far I've seen no evidence to support that view.

[psyche101]

lost_shaman, on 13 February 2012 - 03:38 AM, said:

I did NOT ask for evidence, I asked for someone to think of a body-type other than a bi-pedal hominid that would fit the "bill" for a body-type that could also acheive technological civilization and make an evolutionary argument for it. Is that "unfair" for me to have asked? Yes, I say it was unfair for me to ask simply because I do not believe anyone here could come up with a viable alternative.  

Hi All

I see things getting a little heated here, but if we all look at the question posed above, I am hoping the above question might start to get moving in a happier direction. Personally, I see what Lost Shaman is saying, and I have to agree, it seems to me that a bipedal creature with multiple appendages offer the ability not only to manipulate, but to assist with leverage,  work in any environment, and create what is necessary to achieve hypothetical constructs.  Many creatures have risen on this earth, very few have managed to get beyond predator or prey. We are the only species to initiate an Industrial Revolution, and we had to eliminate the competition to do so. We did this by way of good design that allowed us to outcompete every other species on the planet, including our own type as we are the surviving species out of Sapiens, Neanderthal , Flores Hominid and the Denisovians (that we know of). We even can compete with and beat out own model, yet nothing else has come close to that abilities we have displayed. Mining, refining raw materials, ad using them in the way we have to make our lives easier, and to progress faster. To just think, the monitor I type this on was once many elements spread out inside of a star and survived amazing explosions that you and I can only read about.

So as such, I think the above question asked might be a real good one to speculate upon, if we are to speculate. Many wish to speculate that life is too varied to envisage, but I cannot say I agree? We all have the same materials to work with, we all are using the same physics, the boundaries do not move here or in the Andromeda Galaxy. Many have mentioned the Dolphin. well I do not see haw a Dolphin could ever possible manipulate an object or tool in the way we do. Yes it is cool that Dolphins do things like catch prey in conch shells, but hey, I sat down and watched Terra Nova on a flat screen last night, I cannot see a Dolphin ever doing something close to that. Is that an important thing to do? Well, no. Anyone would be right in saying no, but it is still something only we can accomplish, and merely for our entertainment! Dolphins have vestigial limbs, which indicates to me that they are evolved to suit instinct, they left the water, and returned to it. I cannot see a dolphin making a  suit to walk on land such as we have for water, or a way to fix objects together such as the humble nut and bolt. I just cannot see how such woud be accomplished by that body shape and in that environment. Can anyone? Others have pointed out the Octopus which has a lineage we pale next to on any timeline, and they have appendages, but coud one of these appendages turn a ab spanner? I cannot see it, leverage is not on your side, and a watery environment is not of assistance there, particularly with regards to production. So what would fit the bill? A Dog? A Rhinoceros, an Elephant? Does anyone here see any reason to think these body shapes would attain the level of intelligence that we have, or simply be abe to perform the tasks we do to create technology, or for that matter, allow for what needs may arise. It strikes me that such basic body models are evolved to suit instinct. They feed, they procreate, they provide sustenance for predators until they hit the apex position and that has always been a temporary position. Why would such a model evolve beyond this? Archosaurs have retained the same body shape for an amazing amount of time because it works for their requirements. Same with many insects, arachnids etc etc. As I say, this strikes me that such basic body shapes are evolved to take advantage of instinct, not environment. I think our body shape is the next step in that evolutionary tree, and to be honest, I cannot see a reason to think otherwise. In the interest of a fine discussion, I would like to ask you all, can anyone? I would love to see if anyone has a proposal, not imagination, but a thought based structured body shape that would compete with humans on the intelligence plains and in an Industrial Revolution. True, we do not know what is "out there" with regards to life, but NASA and projects like Kepler has told us what we can find "by way of environments, and we know that life here followed a logical basic pattern, and the building blocks that created said life are abundant in the Universe. As such, why woud a similar environment (seeing as we are more likely to find life as we know it on planets similar to ours due to water) not produce a similar outcome?
The way I see this is humans are Darwins "Origin of the Species" - Part 2. We are just beginning down a path no other species had the abilities to pursue before now. I think this is harder to see from out vantage point, being not far off the start line. I do not know if another stage of evolution awaits us yet, but I do feel there are stages of evolution, and we are at the dawn of the latest "cambrian explosion" if one will, of intelligence. A new era. And considering convergent evolution on this planet alone, I think that makes the entire deal just a bit more likely again. Good inventions work well. Humans are not at all special I do not think, but appendages and that ability to manipulate objects at will, with some intelligence I think is. We are not special, we have not been chosen, this is what works.

The Dinosaurid has been met with much opposition, and probably quite warranted. What about everyone here? Anyone like to propose a model for intelligent life? It is easy to say that such questions are more than we can imagine, but is it more than we can imagine? Not sure about you guys, but I can imagine quite a lot, and I still keep coming up with a Bipedal creature with arms and legs. Nature has already proven this model works best out of billions of designs. What would, or could be more efficient to kickstart an Industrial Revolution? I see Quillius offered an idea from a known case, but it still looks pretty humanoid to me.

Cheers all, and good luck with nutting out a new species