97 replies to this topic

[Bluefinger]

Etu Malku, on 14 November 2012 - 07:32 PM, said:

No, this time I am not going to let you get away with your patented "this is not My Christians" retort. Jesus is found in the NT warning everyone not to dismiss the OT, since it is the Word of God.

  Jesus also criticized the Jews of His days concerning how they interpreted the Law.  So he drew a line between what was true Judaism and what was not.  So I don't see why you're giving me flack.

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Nah, this IS the Abrahamic god and that good book is full of bad stuff.
** And don't even think about turning this into the Roman's Christianity . . . yeeeesh with you and your Christian apologetics!

That isn't an argument.  That is simply you trying to dismiss other arguments, expansions into Christian history, and the unfolding of exegesis.  You can't set the limits to what is debateable simply because it doesn't impress you.

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You have decided that this god and Christianity are the correct and moral standard to be placed on all of Mankind . . . it just isn't so.

Is that what its about to you?  A moral standard?  To me, its a theological matter.  We'll never agree on a moral 'standard' until we agree on a theology.  Bad theology creates bad religion, and bad religion is a recipe for disaster.

[Etu Malku]

Bluefinger, on 15 November 2012 - 01:18 PM, said:

Jesus also criticized the Jews of His days concerning how they interpreted the Law.  So he drew a line between what was true Judaism and what was not.  So I don't see why you're giving me flack.

where would one find this information about Yeshua?

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That isn't an argument.  That is simply you trying to dismiss other arguments, expansions into Christian history, and the unfolding of exegesis.  You can't set the limits to what is debateable simply because it doesn't impress you.

No, this Christian apologetics, twisting everything into the story which they want to hear . . . it's an ancient tool that's been used quite a lot, particularly by Christians, who seem the need to rewrite this story over & over in order to fit whatever new agenda is at the time.

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Is that what its about to you?  A moral standard?  To me, its a theological matter.  We'll never agree on a moral 'standard' until we agree on a theology.  Bad theology creates bad religion, and bad religion is a recipe for disaster.

Your statement:

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"And so long as wickedness continues among God's people, how will you ever come to believe in the one true God?"

This required a comment, in that it is God's people who see this and other things as wicked, implying a moral standard on what is wicked in terms of the Christian eye, theology is blind in these matters.

[Cobalt60]

who thought this question up--or was it a statement...? a real thought-provoker...i'm not ready to enter this conversation yet...i'll come back.

[araxia]

if you want to live life you have to fight. end of story!

adapt or perish.

Edited by araxia, 15 November 2012 - 05:42 PM.

[Bluefinger]

Etu Malku, on 15 November 2012 - 03:08 PM, said:

where would one find this information about Yeshua?

"But woe  to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you  shut the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. For you  neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in.    "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For  you tithe mint and dill and  cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law:  justice and mercy and faithfulness.  These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.  "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like  whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people's bones and  all uncleanness.  So you also  outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of  hypocrisy and lawlessness.  You serpents,  you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to  hell?  Therefore  I send you  prophets and wise men and  scribes,  some of whom you will kill and crucify, and  some you will  flog in your synagogues and  persecute from town to town,  so that on you may come all  the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent  Abel to the blood of  Zechariah the son of Barachiah,  whom you murdered between  the sanctuary and  the altar. (Matthew 23:13, 23, 27, 28, 33-35 ESV)

I shortened it for you.  Also, Flavius Josephus had a good bit to say:  "What I would now explain is this, that the Pharisees have delivered to the people a great many observances by succession from their fathers, which are not written in the law of Moses; and for that reason it is that the Sadducees reject them and say that we are to esteem those observances to be obligatory which are in the written word, but are not to observe wht are derived from the tradition of our forefathers..."

( The Antiquities of the Jews 13.10.6.297)

The Apocrypha book of Susanna was likely written about the civil war between the two that took place during the reign of Hyrcanus.  Basically, the Pharisees and Sadducees were the Jewish version of the Catholic and Protestant sects of the Church.  One has a big list of man-made commands an a huge following while the other sticks strictly to the written word of God.  If Jesus proved both wrong in their religion and eschatology, why is it not okay to do the same today among Christians?  It is obviously the same scenario.

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No, this Christian apologetics, twisting everything into the story which they want to hear . . . it's an ancient tool that's been used quite a lot, particularly by Christians, who seem the need to rewrite this story over & over in order to fit whatever new agenda is at the time.

I disagree.  Apologetics is traditionally a defence of Christianity that is orthodox to its beliefs.  Apologetics originally developed as a debate between Jews and Christians.  Its not twisting.  You're just trying to force your views on us without giving us room to speak.  If you don't like it happening to you, be the better man and stop doing it to others.  A person who complains about one group's intolerance and at the same time shows intolerance back is a hypocrite.  Are you a hypocrite?

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Your statement:This required a comment, in that it is God's people who see this and other things as wicked, implying a moral standard on what is wicked in terms of the Christian eye, theology is blind in these matters.

That's not what I asked.  Why is a moral standard all you are focusing on?  Has someone tried to force their beliefs on you specificly?  If so, can you give me an example?

And as I said, we cannot properly discuss moral standards until we properly interogate each other's theology.  Notice that the early Christians didn't aim most of their arguments against the pagans to moral standards but rather the inadequacies of their theology.  The pagans' immorality was evident in how they treated the Christians.

Edited by Bluefinger, 15 November 2012 - 06:36 PM.

[Beckys_Mom]

Cobalt60, on 15 November 2012 - 05:06 PM, said:

who thought this question up--or was it a statement...?

The guy who created the thread

[Etu Malku]

Bluefinger, on 15 November 2012 - 06:24 PM, said:

The pagans' immorality was evident in how they treated the Christians.

Surely you jest? Pagans didn't find anything immoral about their practices, that was something "forced" in everyone's ears by the . . . wait for it . . . Christians! Again we find ourselves creating the moral standard and acting as if it were the Word of god . . . oh wait, it was!

As for your "info" about Yeshua . . . these scriptures weren't written by the Nazarene, so you have no idea what He actually said about anything.

I'm as much a hypocrite as you are a heretic

[Bluefinger]

Etu Malku, on 15 November 2012 - 09:05 PM, said:

Surely you jest? Pagans didn't find anything immoral about their practices, that was something "forced" in everyone's ears by the . . . wait for it . . . Christians!

  I think you're stretching the truth here.  What is moral about impaling someone on a steak, covering them in oil and lighting them on fire to light an arena where their friends and relatives are torn to pieces by lions for the entertainment of the Romans?  All that over a difference in religion?  And it was so offensive that many pagans came to belief in Jesus because of the dignity by which the Christians suffered.

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Again we find ourselves creating the moral standard and acting as if it were the Word of god . . . oh wait, it was!

  I think you and I are talking about two different things.  

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As for your "info" about Yeshua . . . these scriptures weren't written by the Nazarene, so you have no idea what He actually said about anything.

  Oh goodness.  I understand the point you're making.  It's just not a very powerful point.  It's a matter of trust.  I trust that I'm getting the right info.  You don't.  Point taken.  Let's move on.  What about Josephus?

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I'm as much a hypocrite as you are a heretic

  I see you're really not going to actually give me a meaningful discussion.  Are you that bored?

Edited by Bluefinger, 15 November 2012 - 10:47 PM.