10148 replies to this topic

[zoser]

AsteroidX, on 19 December 2012 - 12:56 PM, said:

Unless there coming to save us from our own insanity what are we doing but leavin gno mark. If there signs from the heaven leave your mark.

That's all well and good but what do you think about the vitrification?

[AsteroidX]

I think its a fairly realistic and acceptable possibility that our ancient civilizations got a gift from the skies that we are not responsible to have. I believe  the archeological evidence shows this to be true. MOSTLY through pectroglyphs (you know what I mean) amnd I believe things like the ancient mesoamerican skull modifications that at some point we were coexisting with a extraterrestial race. I have no idea how many or for how long but the persistent timeline across the globe of pyramid building is a very strong indicator of a global EVENT. They had no comntact that we know of. So pyramid building by meso cultures is good evidence of something. Stonehenge also appeared at the same time frame although more crude. It has similiar stellar effects as all the meso pyramids.


Thats where I go ET....and go on on and on

Im not gonna poo poo the doubters as some of the physiocs involved certainly bring question. My personal response to the physics stuff is it is all man made at this time. A ET could be dealing with propereties we dont even know about.

So Im happy with my hypothesis, objective evidence and conclusin. Sadly I feel we as the caretakers of Earth have failed the higher plan.

[Myles]

Ancient Aliens is the easy way out.    When one doesn't want to do the research, they can cry "Aliens did it!".

[Abramelin]

Abramelin, on 18 December 2012 - 08:49 PM, said:

About those plants (know that some contain oxalic acid) :

In general, acids are very poor agents for stone polishing. This is because decorative stones such as granite, marble and limestone consist primarily of calcium carbonate (CaCO3), which readily dissolves in acid to form carbon dioxide (CO2), water (H20) and a calcium salt. Worse still, the acid doesn't eat away at the stone uniformly; rather, it leaves surface with a swath of microscopic pockets. This process of altering the surface of a stone with acid is known as "etching".

However, there is one commercially-acid available that is useful in polishing stone: oxalic acid. When applied to the CaCO3, the result is CO2, H20, a calcium salt and thousands of microscopic pockets. The difference is that the calcium salt formed, calcium oxalate, happens to be a strong yet extremely fine-grained abrasive. Once this abrasive salt has been formed, simply polish with a camel hair pad, either by hand or SLOWLY and GENTLY by machine. The fine grains of calcium oxalate will wear down the edges of the acid-etched micropockets, resulting in an excellent surface shine.

http://www.ehow.com/...lish-stone.html

Chemical composition of granite:
http://en.wikipedia....cal_composition

Granite consist for 1.82% of CaO.

.

I assume many here will be acquainted with the work and theories of Joseph Davidovits, which are quite disputed, btw.

But instead of - like he did - suggesting that complete stones were shaped from some sort of cement, I think it's possible stones were split, moved, and that before they were put into place the sides of the stones were chemically altered using organic acids extracted from plants, more or less as was suggested by Fawcett, Bingham and others.


Fabrication of stone objects, by geopolymeric synthesis, in the pre-incan Huanka civilization (Peru)

Joseph DAVIDOVITS and Francisco ALIAGA

http://www.geopolyme...-plant-extracts
http://www.geopolyme...df/CemPlant.pdf

The starting stone material (silicate or silico-aluminate) is dissolved by the organic extracts,
and the viscous slurry is then poured into a mould where it hardens. This technique, when
mastered, allows a sort of cement to be made by dissolving rocks; statues which could have been
made by the technique of the pre-incan HUANKA, by dissolution followed by geopolymeric
agglomeration, are found to contain Ca-oxalate in the stone.

-

We present here the first results on plant extracts on the dissolution or dis-aggregation of
calcium carbonate containing rocks (Bio-tooling action). The feasibility of chemically working
calcium carbonate with various carboxylic acids found in plants (acetic, oxalic and citric acid)
has been studied. Maximum bio-tooling action is obtained with a solution containing:

Vinegar (1 M) (acetic acid)
Oxalic acid (0.9 M)
Citric acid (0.78 M)

The great surprise was actually to discover very ancient references to their use since Neolithic
times for working materials which are very hard but easily attacked by acids, such as chalk.
Thus, a bas-relief from the tomb of Mera, at SAQQARAH (VI dynasty, 3Millenium B.C., Egypt)
shows the hollowing out of "Egyptian alabaster" (CaCO3) vases by a liquid contained in a water
skin or bladder. An experiment of interest was to compare the "bio-tooling" technique with the
shaping of a hole using a steel tool and the quartz sand technique recommended by prehistorians.
The hole resulting from sand abrasion has rough walls, whereas bio-tooling gives a
smooth finish.

-

The precolumbian farmers were quite capable of producing large quantities of acids from such common plants in their region as:

fruits, potatoes, maize, rhubarb, rumex, agave americana, opuntia, ficus indica, oxalis pubescens

[zoser]

Abramelin, on 19 December 2012 - 02:35 PM, said:

I assume many here will be acquainted with the work and theories of Joseph Davidovits, which are quite disputed, btw.

But instead of - like he did - suggesting that complete stones were shaped from some sort of cement, I think it's possible stones were split, moved, and that before they were put into place the sides of the stones were chemically altered using organic acids extracted from plants, more or less as was suggested by Fawcett, Bingham and others.


Fabrication of stone objects, by geopolymeric synthesis, in the pre-incan Huanka civilization (Peru)

Joseph DAVIDOVITS and Francisco ALIAGA

http://www.geopolyme...-plant-extracts
http://www.geopolyme...df/CemPlant.pdf

The starting stone material (silicate or silico-aluminate) is dissolved by the organic extracts,
and the viscous slurry is then poured into a mould where it hardens. This technique, when
mastered, allows a sort of cement to be made by dissolving rocks; statues which could have been
made by the technique of the pre-incan HUANKA, by dissolution followed by geopolymeric
agglomeration, are found to contain Ca-oxalate in the stone.

-

We present here the first results on plant extracts on the dissolution or dis-aggregation of
calcium carbonate containing rocks (Bio-tooling action). The feasibility of chemically working
calcium carbonate with various carboxylic acids found in plants (acetic, oxalic and citric acid)
has been studied. Maximum bio-tooling action is obtained with a solution containing:

Vinegar (1 M) (acetic acid)
Oxalic acid (0.9 M)
Citric acid (0.78 M)

The great surprise was actually to discover very ancient references to their use since Neolithic
times for working materials which are very hard but easily attacked by acids, such as chalk.
Thus, a bas-relief from the tomb of Mera, at SAQQARAH (VI dynasty, 3Millenium B.C., Egypt)
shows the hollowing out of "Egyptian alabaster" (CaCO3) vases by a liquid contained in a water
skin or bladder. An experiment of interest was to compare the "bio-tooling" technique with the
shaping of a hole using a steel tool and the quartz sand technique recommended by prehistorians.
The hole resulting from sand abrasion has rough walls, whereas bio-tooling gives a
smooth finish.

-

The precolumbian farmers were quite capable of producing large quantities of acids from such common plants in their region as:

fruits, potatoes, maize, rhubarb, rumex, agave americana, opuntia, ficus indica, oxalis pubescens

The only problem I have with the chemical theory is the fact that the artefacts displaying vitrification are very widespread across Peru and Bolivia.  The shear size and number of blocks concerned and also where carvings have been made in tunnels, rock outcrops, and even mountain sides, the shear volume of chemical needed would be enormous.  

Then the question has to be asked why have we not rediscovered this secret cocktail?  It's one thing to produce a list of acid bearing chemicals and foods it's quite another to verify that they are capable of eating hard rock to allow it to be worked like butter.  

Didn't the above write up mention calcium carbonate rocks?  Isn't that chalk?  How would these cocktails work on diorite, andesite, and granite?  

I think if it is part of the story it's only a very small part.  To think that pouring some fruit juice on some diorite is going to allow it to be worked to precision fits is stretching the imagination just a little to far imho.

Don't forget that the above description mentions steel tools so that immediately relegates the theory to a non-credible explanation.

Then consider where I live herein Jersey.  We see a lot of churches, walls and residential houses built out of local red granite and in the neighbouring island of Guernsey it's grey in colour.

A lot of time and effort obviously goes into cutting this material suitable to form building blocks.  If it was a straightforward as applying a chemical cocktail to avoid expensive diamond cutting equipment do you really think someone would have rediscovered the technique by now?

I think a dose of solid reason is called for here.

Plus the analysis looked at earlier was very detailed, and categorically implicating intense heat as the main force responsible for the vitrification.  The truth is we just don't know how they did this and I would want to avoid attempts to wrap it up with some partial or improbable theory.  I know it's tempting to do this but I think it should be resisted.

Edited by zoser, 19 December 2012 - 03:15 PM.

[Abramelin]

Granite contains 1,8% CaO.

Calcium oxide converts to Ca(OH)2 in water, basic enough to react with oxalic acid.

The reaction of calcium oxide (CaO) with oxalic acid (HO2C-CO2H) :

CaO + H2O ---> Ca(OH)2

Ca(OH)2 + HO2C-CO2H ---> Ca(C2O4) + 2 H2O


CaCO3 won't be present in granite because of the way (heat, magma) granite is formed.

And it won't have to be present.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 19 December 2012 - 03:06 PM.

[Abramelin]

And Zoser, you say the amount of chemicals needed would be enormous, but what is needed for vitrification? The Spaniards were there, and never reported about enormous and intense fires used to finish the stones.

Now that would be a spectacle to behold !!

Anyway, they may have made their acidic brew from common plants, or plants they got by trading with people in the Amazon jungle.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 19 December 2012 - 03:15 PM.

[zoser]

Abramelin, on 19 December 2012 - 03:11 PM, said:

And Zoser, you say the amount of chemicals needed would be enormous, but what is needed for vitrification? The Spaniards were there, and never reported about enormous and intense fires used to finish the stones.

More evidence in favour of the idea that the precision work was already done before they arrived.

Abramelin, on 19 December 2012 - 03:11 PM, said:

Anyway, they may have made their acidic brew from common plants, or plants they got by trading with people in the Amazon jungle.

And we have failed to re-discover it and employ it to save millions of dollars on building work?  Is this really a credible hypothesis?

Think how the renaissance cathedral builders would have appreciated this technology.  They were pretty resourceful people too!

Edited by zoser, 19 December 2012 - 03:26 PM.

[Abramelin]

And I said they may have used the acidic brew to chemically alter the sides of the already cut stones. Not that the stones were completely shaped by these chemicals.

[AsteroidX]

Well there is this bit. IDK where it falls to even run a diamond cutter through stone you need water to keep it cooled. Unles were suggesting it was done laser precision by hand.

[Abramelin]

zoser, on 19 December 2012 - 03:19 PM, said:

More evidence in favour of the idea that the precision work was already done before they arrived.



And we have failed to re-discover it and employ it to save millions of dollars on building work?  Is this really a credible hypothesis?

No, the Spaniards were there, and never reported anything that could hint at a process of vitrification.

On the other hand, it is quite possible the Incas used an acidic brew in permeable bags of some sort and then smeared the substance on the sides and edges of the stones.

[zoser]

Abramelin, on 19 December 2012 - 03:21 PM, said:

And I said they may have used the acidic brew to chemically alter the sides of the already cut stones. Not that the stones were completely shaped by these chemicals.

Accepted.  So how can this be furthered?  I've run up against a bit of a brick (granite) wall.  If resources were no problem what would be needed to get a more detailed idea of how this was done?

My instinct suggests that it was some high intensity thermal cutter.  However even if one makes the giant leap of assuming some kind of high power laser was used then how would they have handled the device to achieve these perfectly flat surfaces?  Trying to achieve a flat surface with a hand held laser would be impossible surely?

High temperature may well account for the perfect fitting of the blocks.  Some kind of jig holding the powered device to allow true vertical and horizontal cuts with constant feed rate?

It boggles the mind.

[zoser]

Abramelin, on 19 December 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

No, the Spaniards were there, and never reported anything that could hint at a process of vitrification.

On the other hand, it is quite possible the Incas used an acidic brew in permeable bags of some sort and then smeared the substance on the sides and edges of the stones.

We'll have to disagree on that one.  Magic brews?  How about AA?

[zoser]

Abramelin, on 19 December 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

No, the Spaniards were there, and never reported anything that could hint at a process of vitrification.

So isn't that confirmation that the precision work was done before they arrived?  We know that there is vitrification all over that area but only on the precision relics.

I'm not trying to catch you out Abe but if you think about it that is pretty good evidence to say that it was already done; else as you suggest the Spanish would have noted the process.  Few people have actually noticed the vitrification and those that have have failed to appreciate the significance of it.

[Abramelin]

zoser, on 19 December 2012 - 03:45 PM, said:

We'll have to disagree on that one.  Magic brews?  How about AA?

Not magic, acidic.

I can imagine they collected enough plants, and then boiled the collected juice into a more concentrated and potent liquid.

Applying it to a stone would not have been as notable as the process of vitrification must have been.