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Why do you believe in UFO's and aliens?


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#181    Admiral Rhubarb

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 04:48 PM

View PostbooNyzarC, on 22 October 2012 - 04:35 PM, said:

For someone who normally seems quite ready to entertain some pretty wild speculations at times, you seem uncommonly closed off to considering them if the subject of speculation is prosaic in nature.  Rather inconsistent isn't it?
I'm merely trying to apply the same standards of criticalness to Rational explanations as are rigidly applied to wild speculations. There are a lot of questions regarding this explanation that leave a lot of questions unanswered, and I'm afraid that the idea of secret aircraft flying about that no one has ever heard anything of since, or that pilots may have gone scooting about all over the United States on unauthorised excursions in extremely expnesive prototype aircraft, leaving no record of their doing so, is does not seem to supply a satisfactory explanation to me. And where did those other eight aircraft come from?
Can a question leave a question unanswered? Anyway, you know what I mean.
Anyway, what are these wild speculations to which you infer?

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#182    mcrom901

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 04:59 PM

View Post747400, on 22 October 2012 - 04:48 PM, said:

Anyway, what are these wild speculations to which you infer?

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#183    TheMacGuffin

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 07:16 PM

View Postmcrom901, on 22 October 2012 - 04:59 PM, said:




No, Arnold never saw that.  It was the Maury Island hoax,


#184    booNyzarC

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 08:02 PM

View Post747400, on 22 October 2012 - 04:48 PM, said:

I'm merely trying to apply the same standards of criticalness to Rational explanations as are rigidly applied to wild speculations. There are a lot of questions regarding this explanation that leave a lot of questions unanswered, and I'm afraid that the idea of secret aircraft flying about that no one has ever heard anything of since, or that pilots may have gone scooting about all over the United States on unauthorised excursions in extremely expnesive prototype aircraft, leaving no record of their doing so, is does not seem to supply a satisfactory explanation to me. And where did those other eight aircraft come from?
Can a question leave a question unanswered? Anyway, you know what I mean.

I don't see anything wrong with applying the same standards of scrutiny to all speculations regarding this phenomena at all.  In fact, I encourage it completely.  And you are just as entitled to an opinion about any given idea as anyone else.

I believe that I've clearly qualified my mention of similarities between flying wing designs of the day and the good Mr. Arnold's sighting as just an interesting observation.  To extend this into a realm of hypothesis would require a bit more detail I think, but that doesn't dissuade me from considering the idea from a purely speculative standpoint.  It seems to me that such ideas can be the very spark needed in order to lead to more substantial answers, even if the initial thought wasn't necessarily the correct one.

I'm just a bit surprised by how opposed you seem to be when speculations involving things closer to earth are even mentioned, like plasma and aircraft for example.  It doesn't seem to me that you are applying this standard equally across the board, at least not from a visible sense.  You may have similar reservations about ET conclusions, but just don't voice them as often?



View Post747400, on 22 October 2012 - 04:48 PM, said:

Anyway, what are these wild speculations to which you infer?

Perhaps I shouldn't have said "wild speculations" so much as your affinity for the value of speculative thought.  You've certainly made many statements over time which indicate that you value speculations quite strongly.  As an example, here are a few which I tracked down by an advanced search where "speculate" is the word and you are the poster...

View Post747400, on 02 July 2011 - 08:41 AM, said:

We're going to have to be willing to explore sci fi and fantasy ideas in order to make any sense of any of these subjects, don't you see? You're never going to find out anything about extraterrestrial life, or about any mysteries, if we just insist on restricting ourselves to "what we know to be possible". Really, we know very, very little, and we're never going to expand what we do know if we just stick to that attitude. In short, we're going to have to be willing to consider "fantasies" - we're going to have to be willing to speculate - if we're going to make any progress in investigating any phenomenomena. We're just restricting ourselves so much that we might not be able to see something that's literally under our nose if we just insist on only considering "what we know to be true".

View Post747400, on 22 August 2012 - 06:57 AM, said:

people never seem to understand that when talking with advanced technology, you're going to have to (gasps in horror) speculate about things that the Hard Nosed might dismiss as the mere stuff of fantasy, do they? If we're talking about technology far in advance of ours, then obviously we're going to have to consider things that we might think are just the stuff of Fantasy. We would never make any progress at all if we just stuck in the mud of insisting that only what we know to be possible is possible.

View Post747400, on 20 September 2012 - 09:27 AM, said:

Copernicus, Galileo, Newton, Darwin, Einstein.. all of whom were willing to look beyond what we knew already, and what the accepted paradigm was, and make a leap that everyone else dismissed as wild speculation, based on what their researches had led them to. I don't know why you seem to be hung up on this idea that i've ever tried to insist that anything is fact, beyond the fact that sticking to what we know and not being willing to speculate will never make any progress.

View Post747400, on 22 September 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

yes, it is psychye's whole point, and I'm completely mystified why he and others seem angered and/or annoyed by it, because, as I keep trying to say but people either don't, or deliberately choose not to, understand, we're never going to make any progress if we Stick to What we Know. That, surely, has been proved time and time again throughout history. Of course it's an "imaginary solution", (and i can hear your nose curling in a sneer as you type it (how can you hear a nose curling? it's a talent I have)), but heavens, that's what we need, rather than just repetitively saying over and over again "well, it can't be proved", or "there's no evidence", and folding one's arms huffily. heavens above, i'm not trying to insist that it's a theory that everyone should accept, I wouldn't even call it an Hypothesis, it's just an idea which I think is interesting. Some people seem to have a problem with that, but, as I said before, i can only feel sorry for them. Please try to understand this; I'm not trying to insist that everyone should accept these speculations as a new scientific paradigm, but on the other hand i do get Shirty (© psyche) when people insist dogmatically that we must not Speculate and we must Stick to What we Know. That seems, if I may say, a little arrogant.


Some of these seem to be pretty emphatic defenses of speculative thought in general.  Wouldn't you agree?


In my opinion ET isn't the only possible unknown we should consider when examining these cases.  We should also consider unknown knowns, meaning that if the observed phenomena closely resembles something that we can recognize (like aircraft for example) we shouldn't toss this possibility out the window just because we can't find the specific airplane(s) and pilot(s) who may have been responsible.

As a case in point, just because we have nothing on paper that says those 9 YB-35 aircraft in the photograph had been flown, it doesn't necessarily mean that they hadn't been.  Don't forget that we are talking about the very same government, military, and intelligence agencies which UFOlogy is more than willing to point out as secretive when trying to sell us on the idea that they are hiding some kind of ET visitation reality.  How much easier would it be to hide documentation related to 9 YB-35 (or some other kind of flying wing) taking a test flight?  I'd say that it would be far easier to hide something like that than hiding a hypothetical alien visitation reality.  There is also good reason to entertain the possibility that just such an exercise could have easily been performed as a sort of psychological experiment to determine just how the general public might react to something like that.

Does that truly seem extravagantly far fetched to you?  Moreso than extraterrestrial visitors?


#185    Admiral Rhubarb

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 08:14 PM

View PostbooNyzarC, on 22 October 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:


As a case in point, just because we have nothing on paper that says those 9 YB-35 aircraft in the photograph had been flown, it doesn't necessarily mean that they hadn't been.  Don't forget that we are talking about the very same government, military, and intelligence agencies which UFOlogy is more than willing to point out as secretive when trying to sell us on the idea that they are hiding some kind of ET visitation reality.  How much easier would it be to hide documentation related to 9 YB-35 (or some other kind of flying wing) taking a test flight?  I'd say that it would be far easier to hide something like that than hiding a hypothetical alien visitation reality.  There is also good reason to entertain the possibility that just such an exercise could have easily been performed as a sort of psychological experiment to determine just how the general public might react to something like that.

Does that truly seem extravagantly far fetched to you?  Moreso than extraterrestrial visitors?
The reason they were grounded, just to address this point for now (I may get back to the more philosophical questions when I've got time) was because the original propeller engines were unsatisfactory. Therefore Northrop would, I'd have thought, have been very unlikely to decide to get together enough engines (each of them needing four engines) just to make them airworthy so they could, for some reason, fly them secretly and never tell anyone. That would be the kind of budget wasting excercise that, oh, only Government departments could think about. And why would they want to do that, if the design as it was had already proven to be unsatisfactory? It makes no sense at all, and until nine other suitable candidates can be found, then I think that we can rule the YB-35, at any rate, out as a candidate. And remember the size of these things; 172 ft wingspan. Can you imagine what nine of those would look like in formation? I'm sure someone other than Kenneth Arnold would've noticed that. And i'm pretty sure that, as a pilot, even a private one, Arnold would follow developments in aviation technology, and it wasn't as if the YB-35 was exactly secret; this was long before Area 51, so I dare say that he'd recognise a YB-35 for what it was if he saw one.

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

H. P. Lovecraft.


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#186    microsnook

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 08:50 PM

About a year ago, I woke up thinking my mom was opening my door to check on me as it was around 11 am. Instead I looked up to see a solid black figure, peering at me through my cracked door. I was shocked and in so much fear I could hardly move or speak. It vanished right as it was aware I knew of its presence. Some would argue that this is sleep paralysis, however, my door remained open. Seconds later my mom did come check on me, and persisted to ask me why my door was open. This changed my sleep patterns for life and my mind races to find the ultimate truth.

I have done a lot of reading about UFOs and ET contact and do think that this could be been an encounter with a being from another dimension! It mustve been a sign pushing me to start the research...

Now my spirituality and outlooks on life and reality have all changed for the good.

This is my first post, I hope to learn a lot here!


#187    Earl.Of.Trumps

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 09:10 PM

View PostTheMacGuffin, on 19 October 2012 - 10:23 PM, said:

Boon, for whatever reason, you are one of the hardest of the hard core "skeptics", and nothing I have ever posted makes the slightest dent in that.

I don't know what would.  You tell me.

funny, huh?

If your German scientist had instead said,, "There are no Extra Terrestials", he would have hugged you and praised you.

don't need no "tangible evidence" for that stsatement, right?

the neggs play a twisted game. "Don't listen to the man behind the white curtain!!"

Edited by Earl.Of.Trumps, 22 October 2012 - 09:11 PM.

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#188    Sweetpumper

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 09:12 PM

View Postmicrosnook, on 22 October 2012 - 08:50 PM, said:

About a year ago, I woke up thinking my mom was opening my door to check on me as it was around 11 am. Instead I looked up to see a solid black figure, peering at me through my cracked door. I was shocked and in so much fear I could hardly move or speak. It vanished right as it was aware I knew of its presence. Some would argue that this is sleep paralysis, however, my door remained open. Seconds later my mom did come check on me, and persisted to ask me why my door was open. This changed my sleep patterns for life and my mind races to find the ultimate truth.

I have done a lot of reading about UFOs and ET contact and do think that this could be been an encounter with a being from another dimension! It mustve been a sign pushing me to start the research...

Now my spirituality and outlooks on life and reality have all changed for the good.

This is my first post, I hope to learn a lot here!

Wow!  A response to the original question.  Thanks, and welcome!

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#189    Earl.Of.Trumps

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 09:20 PM

View PostTheMacGuffin, on 20 October 2012 - 06:58 PM, said:

Just trying to hold you to your own standards here, Boon, since you basically don't believe what these people are saying about ETs and all that.  

They are saying that they did know something about ETs, and you are replying that they haven't convinced you.  You want physical evidence and things like that.  All right.

Lord Mounbatten did indeed say that he was aware of such evidence and that the aliens were small humanoids.  I don't KNOW exactly how he was aware of that, but it may very well have been through his high-level military contacts.  That would be my best guess, but I don't know.  

All these old records and statements from the 1940s and 1950s, which are actually a lot better than anything we have from more recent times, are the key to the whole UFO issue.

You really ought to write an e-book. :tu:

not joking.

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#190    booNyzarC

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 09:24 PM

View PostEarl.Of.Trumps, on 22 October 2012 - 09:10 PM, said:

funny, huh?

If your German scientist had instead said,, "There are no Extra Terrestials", he would have hugged you and praised you.

don't need no "tangible evidence" for that stsatement, right?

the neggs play a twisted game. "Don't listen to the man behind the white curtain!!"

Typical of you to mis-characterize my point of view and/or how I would hypothetically respond to something.  Once again you're quite mistaken, but I suspect you should be getting rather used to that by now.


#191    TheMacGuffin

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 09:26 PM

View PostEarl.Of.Trumps, on 22 October 2012 - 09:10 PM, said:

funny, huh?

If your German scientist had instead said,, "There are no Extra Terrestials", he would have hugged you and praised you.


There's no question about it.  Boon and the rest of them would have thought he was the greatest thing since sliced bread if he had something like that.  They'd have said he studied the question for years and rightfully concluded that no ETs were here.


#192    TheMacGuffin

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 09:28 PM

View PostEarl.Of.Trumps, on 22 October 2012 - 09:20 PM, said:

You really ought to write an e-book. :tu:

not joking.

Thanks, although most of what I say has already been said before.  There are lots of people who know these same things I do, and more,


#193    Earl.Of.Trumps

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 09:46 PM

View PostTheMacGuffin, on 22 October 2012 - 09:28 PM, said:

Thanks, although most of what I say has already been said before.  There are lots of people who know these same things I do, and more,

it may have been said before but putting it all together in one collection would be priceless.

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#194    spiritual_journey

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 10:02 PM

It simply doesn't make any sence that we are the only planet among billions of galaxys of planets that have life on it.


#195    booNyzarC

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 10:04 PM

View PostTheMacGuffin, on 22 October 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

There's no question about it.  Boon and the rest of them would have thought he was the greatest thing since sliced bread if he had something like that.  They'd have said he studied the question for years and rightfully concluded that no ETs were here.

I would appreciate it if you didn't project your fantasies about how you think I would respond to something as though it is actually the way I would respond to something.  Can you afford me at least that much respect McG?





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