52 replies to this topic

[pallidin]

Erikl, on 04 December 2012 - 10:24 PM, said:

The problem is everyone seem to think that both sides equally want peace. It is true, but the terms are completely different. For the Arabs, ideal peace is without Israel in the Middle East. For the Israelis, the ideal peace would be no war, period, regardless with who. Many in the West seem to overlook this fact. This is why the "moderate" PA is insisting on the "right of return" of millions of Muslim Palestinians into Israel, not a Palestinian state alone. This is why the Palestinian militants will target civilians just as they'll target military targets - for them, the ideal peace is not a Palestine side by side Israel, but no Israel at all.

That would be exactly right.
Let us also not forget that Iran has publicly declared it's desire for Israel to be wipped-off the face of the planet.

If Israel disarmed, Israel would be destroyed and replaced by an Islamic state.
As such, I fully support Israel having nukes, as well as the US supporting them.

Edited by pallidin, 04 December 2012 - 11:48 PM.

[Professor T]

and then, on 04 December 2012 - 11:08 PM, said:

Impose as in, what?  Try to use military force against Israel?  Because that is what it would take.  The world won't even try that with Assad's chaotic mess and his army is NOTHING like the IDF/IAF.  If the world's nations held a summit and called on BOTH sides to take tangible action then it would quickly become obvious who is obstructing peace.  The Palestinians have been asking for return to 1967 borders and the right of return for all refugees from 1947.  That would destroy the Jewish character of the State of Israel.  It isn't ever going to be allowed.  If they give up that "right" and Israel gives up it's insistence on Jerusalem being totally controlled by Israel then the beginnings of a deal could be found.  Jerusalem will become an international, open city.  Judea and Samaria will probably be in Palestinian hands as well as Gaza.  Some corridor will exist between the two but Israel will have free access to cross it at will.  But unless the Palestinians and other Arab States fully realize that they CANNOT EVER take it all by force, there will never be an agreement.  History has proven this over and over but every new group of pols thinks that just like socialism, it hasn't worked so far because THEY haven't tried it their way

You are quite correct, but the obstruction of peace is not "obviously" one side or the other, but both...

A history lesson..

In 1947 the UNGA adopted a partitian plan in Palestine, and months later the modern state of Israel was declared by the Zionists and it's been War ever since because Israels neighbours invaded to support the palestinians in what i believe became a land grab.

So, there's three main players here right from the start..
Zionist Israel..
Paletinians..
& the UN...
4 players if you want to include Britian, but they turned their back on the whole affair so let's just ingore them. & shove em in with the UN..

It's important to note, that before all this occured the region was peacefull, Jews and Arabs lived together in peace..

When you have two sides to a conflict that refuse to see eye to eye, and refuse to abide by international laws and who distract the world with war and conflict and propaganda and fingerpointing and extremism....grrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!! 65 years of bloodshed and misery is a Damn good reason for the UN (rest of the world) to get involved because clearly it's not going to end nicely for one side or the other, and what bodes ill for Israel bodes i'll for the lot of us..

It's just a crying shame on all of us, on Humanity, that here we are 65 years later and STILL there is no resolution... It is moronic countries like certain No Voters who perpetuate the fighting and get in the way of peace by pledging support when they sould be placing pressure on finding a peaceful resolution..

imo, the world should sanction the lot of them, cut them off, and force them into peace talks.. And if the talks fail the ultimatum should be a UN lead INVADE & IMPOSE mission to make peace.....

In finding a resolution there sould only be those same three players..
Zionist Israel..
Paletinians..
& the UN...

1947 UNGA partitian plan map..

[WHO U KIDDIN]

Eriki said:

The problem is everyone seem to think that both sides equally want peace. It is true, but the terms are completely different. For the Arabs, ideal peace is without Israel in the Middle East. For the Israelis, the ideal peace would be no war, period, regardless with who. Many in the West seem to overlook this fact. This is why the "moderate" PA is insisting on the "right of return" of millions of Muslim Palestinians into Israel, not a Palestinian state alone. This is why the Palestinian militants will target civilians just as they'll target military targets - for them, the ideal peace is not a Palestine side by side Israel, but no Israel at all.

If For the Arabs, ideal peace is without Israel in the Middle East,  then why would the Arab League offer Israel a peace deal in 2002 and again in 2007 that "offered normalizing relations between the entire Arab region and Israel, in exchange for a complete withdrawal from the occupied territories (including East Jerusalem) and a "just settlement" of the Palestinian refugee crisis based on UN Resolution 194 (which calls for a diplomatic resolution to the conflict and resolves that any refugees "wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors" should be able to do so or, if they otherwise wish, should be provided with compensation)."

Of course you probably dismissed the initiative as just more Arab propaganda designed to make the Israelis look like the 'bad guys'. Even though the terms were more then equitable to both sides.

Even when given a chance it sure looks like Israel doesn't like to play nice.

For God's sake if Israel was offered normalized relations with its Arab neighbors, why was this an unacceptable solution?

Now whose really the 'bad guy'?

Arab Peace Initiative  http://en.wikipedia....eace_Initiative

pallidin, on 04 December 2012 - 11:47 PM, said:

That would be exactly right.
Let us also not forget that Iran has publicly declared it's desire for Israel to be wipped-off the face of the planet.

If Israel disarmed, Israel would be destroyed and replaced by an Islamic state.
As such, I fully support Israel having nukes, as well as the US supporting them.

I was wondering when 'THE IRAN THREATENED ISRAEL TO BE WIPED OFF THE FACE OF THE PLANET' lie would surface again. Of course the hasbarah got to earn their pay.

Edited by WHO U KIDDIN, 05 December 2012 - 01:27 AM.

[and then]

Professor T, on 05 December 2012 - 12:06 AM, said:

You are quite correct, but the obstruction of peace is not "obviously" one side or the other, but both...

A history lesson..

In 1947 the UNGA adopted a partitian plan in Palestine, and months later the modern state of Israel was declared by the Zionists and it's been War ever since because Israels neighbours invaded to support the palestinians in what i believe became a land grab.

So, there's three main players here right from the start..
Zionist Israel..
Paletinians..
& the UN...
4 players if you want to include Britian, but they turned their back on the whole affair so let's just ingore them. & shove em in with the UN..

It's important to note, that before all this occured the region was peacefull, Jews and Arabs lived together in peace..

When you have two sides to a conflict that refuse to see eye to eye, and refuse to abide by international laws and who distract the world with war and conflict and propaganda and fingerpointing and extremism....grrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!! 65 years of bloodshed and misery is a Damn good reason for the UN (rest of the world) to get involved because clearly it's not going to end nicely for one side or the other, and what bodes ill for Israel bodes i'll for the lot of us..

It's just a crying shame on all of us, on Humanity, that here we are 65 years later and STILL there is no resolution... It is moronic countries like certain No Voters who perpetuate the fighting and get in the way of peace by pledging support when they sould be placing pressure on finding a peaceful resolution..

imo, the world should sanction the lot of them, cut them off, and force them into peace talks.. And if the talks fail the ultimatum should be a UN lead INVADE & IMPOSE mission to make peace.....

In finding a resolution there sould only be those same three players..
Zionist Israel..
Paletinians..
& the UN...

1947 UNGA partitian plan map..

A group of nations including Russia, Iran, Turkey, Sudan and Libya -among many other smaller states - all Islamic - are forecast/predicted to try to go after Israel in the "last days".  It's easy to see the grounds being laid for that now.  It's thought to be ridiculous of course because it's written in the Bible but those predictions have a way of stubbornly being proved out.  When this happens only 1/6 of the total forces will survive and Israel will STILL be standing.  And you know what?  The world will STILL want to destroy this tiny little State.  I think the hatred is so over the top as to be inspired by something not even human.  So invading and imposing isn't a new concept.  God foresaw it a very long time ago.  And He even tells us how it will end - but most people still won't listen or believe.

[pallidin]

WHO U KIDDIN, on 05 December 2012 - 01:00 AM, said:

I was wondering when 'THE IRAN THREATENED ISRAEL TO BE WIPED OFF THE FACE OF THE PLANET' lie would surface again. Of course the hasbarah got to earn their pay.

2012
July

In July 2012, ahead of Qods Day, Ahmdainejad said that "any freedom lover and justice seeker in the world must do its best for the annihilation of the Zionist regime in order to pave the path for the establishment of justice and freedom in the world," and that the ultimate objective of world forces must be the annihilation of the "Zionist regime". Ahmadinejad added that “the Zionist regime is both the symbol of the hegemony of the Zionism over the world and the means in the hand of the oppressor powers for expansion of their hegemony in the region and in the world” and that "liberating Palestine" would solve all of the world's problems. Ahmadinejad also made allegations and repeated traditional anti-Semitic slurs that "Zionists" control the world's media and financial systems, and that a "horrible Zionist current" had been managing world affairs for "about 400 years."^{[16][17][18][19]}
August

In August 2012, at an annual protest against the existence of Israel,^[20] Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said that "the very existence of the Zionist regime is an insult to humanity" and that "the Zionist regime and the Zionists are a cancerous tumor. Even if one cell of them is left in one inch of (Palestinian) land, in the future this story (of Israel's existence) will repeat."^[21] Ahmadinejad also said that Israel would soon be finished off, and that “the nations of the region will soon finish off the usurper Zionists in the Palestinian land".^[20] Ahmadinejad added that "it is dangerous if even 10% of the territory is given to the Zionists." Ahmadinejad also said, "The western powers cannot tolerate criticism of the Zionist regime. They feel compelled to defend it."^[22]
International Reactions

United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon condemened Ahmadinejad's remarks, as well as remarks by Iranian Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei, which he called "offensive and inflammatory statements." Ban said that the region's leaders should "use their voices at this time to lower, rather than to escalate, tensions."^[23]


Want MORE PROOF???

[WHO U KIDDIN]

and then, on 05 December 2012 - 01:19 AM, said:

A group of nations including Russia, Iran, Turkey, Sudan and Libya -among many other smaller states - all Islamic - are forecast/predicted to try to go after Israel in the "last days".  It's easy to see the grounds being laid for that now.  It's thought to be ridiculous of course because it's written in the Bible but those predictions have a way of stubbornly being proved out.  When this happens only 1/6 of the total forces will survive and Israel will STILL be standing.  And you know what?  The world will STILL want to destroy this tiny little State.  I think the hatred is so over the top as to be inspired by something not even human.  So invading and imposing isn't a new concept.  God foresaw it a very long time ago.  And He even tells us how it will end - but most people still won't listen or believe.

There you go again Then with Gog and Magog once again i ask you to re-read Rev.20, these current events in the Midde East are not related to bible end time prophecy.

[Professor T]

and then, on 05 December 2012 - 01:19 AM, said:

A group of nations including Russia, Iran, Turkey, Sudan and Libya -among many other smaller states - all Islamic - are forecast/predicted to try to go after Israel in the "last days".  It's easy to see the grounds being laid for that now.  It's thought to be ridiculous of course because it's written in the Bible but those predictions have a way of stubbornly being proved out.  When this happens only 1/6 of the total forces will survive and Israel will STILL be standing.  And you know what?  The world will STILL want to destroy this tiny little State.  I think the hatred is so over the top as to be inspired by something not even human.  So invading and imposing isn't a new concept.  God foresaw it a very long time ago.  And He even tells us how it will end - but most people still won't listen or believe.

Ooooohhkayyyyy..

You are entitled of course to your beliefs of course... I'm not going to rubish them... But I will not accept that future..

I believe peace in the middle east is possible.. Like it was possible in northern Ireland, Like it was possible for Apartheid to be abolished...
I believe we create our reality, which is why certain "beliefs" are dangerous for humanity..

and then, on 05 December 2012 - 01:19 AM, said:

I think the hatred is so over the top as to be inspired by something not even human.

Good point.. And perhaps if as much effort was placed into finding out why they are so hated as was spent on rockets and Bombs we might find a long-term solution.. Hatred is born of something real, be it Actions or Beliefs that hatred has a source... I'm not pointing the finger squarely at a non-human enity either, as that would be blaming a human problem on a non-human source (a cop out).. We got oursevles into this mess, so we only have ourselves to blame if the ****e hits the fan. We can get ourselves out of this mess, but clearly, it's going to take a world effort..

[and then]

pallidin, on 05 December 2012 - 01:31 AM, said:

2012
July

In July 2012, ahead of Qods Day, Ahmdainejad said that "any freedom lover and justice seeker in the world must do its best for the annihilation of the Zionist regime in order to pave the path for the establishment of justice and freedom in the world," and that the ultimate objective of world forces must be the annihilation of the "Zionist regime". Ahmadinejad added that “the Zionist regime is both the symbol of the hegemony of the Zionism over the world and the means in the hand of the oppressor powers for expansion of their hegemony in the region and in the world” and that "liberating Palestine" would solve all of the world's problems. Ahmadinejad also made allegations and repeated traditional anti-Semitic slurs that "Zionists" control the world's media and financial systems, and that a "horrible Zionist current" had been managing world affairs for "about 400 years."^{[16][17][18][19]}
August

In August 2012, at an annual protest against the existence of Israel,^[20] Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said that "the very existence of the Zionist regime is an insult to humanity" and that "the Zionist regime and the Zionists are a cancerous tumor. Even if one cell of them is left in one inch of (Palestinian) land, in the future this story (of Israel's existence) will repeat."^[21] Ahmadinejad also said that Israel would soon be finished off, and that “the nations of the region will soon finish off the usurper Zionists in the Palestinian land".^[20] Ahmadinejad added that "it is dangerous if even 10% of the territory is given to the Zionists." Ahmadinejad also said, "The western powers cannot tolerate criticism of the Zionist regime. They feel compelled to defend it."^[22]
International Reactions

United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon condemened Ahmadinejad's remarks, as well as remarks by Iranian Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei, which he called "offensive and inflammatory statements." Ban said that the region's leaders should "use their voices at this time to lower, rather than to escalate, tensions."^[23]


Want MORE PROOF???

The general refutation of these proofs has been the excuse that A'jad,et.al. were speaking only of the Zionist government - not the actual State and it's citizens.  Ridiculous on the face of it of course but it's what they cling to in the face of a solid record of hatred.

[and then]

WHO U KIDDIN, on 05 December 2012 - 01:00 AM, said:

If For the Arabs, ideal peace is without Israel in the Middle East,  then why would the Arab League offer Israel a peace deal in 2002 and again in 2007 that "offered normalizing relations between the entire Arab region and Israel, in exchange for a complete withdrawal from the occupied territories (including East Jerusalem) and a "just settlement" of the Palestinian refugee crisis based on UN Resolution 194 (which calls for a diplomatic resolution to the conflict and resolves that any refugees "wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors" should be able to do so or, if they otherwise wish, should be provided with compensation)."

Of course you probably dismissed the initiative as just more Arab propaganda designed to make the Israelis look like the 'bad guys'. Even though the terms were more then equitable to both sides.

Even when given a chance it sure looks like Israel doesn't like to play nice.

For God's sake if Israel was offered normalized relations with its Arab neighbors, why was this an unacceptable solution?

Now whose really the 'bad guy'?

Arab Peace Initiative  http://en.wikipedia....eace_Initiative



I was wondering when 'THE IRAN THREATENED ISRAEL TO BE WIPED OFF THE FACE OF THE PLANET' lie would surface again. Of course the hasbarah got to earn their pay.

The right of return of the refugees would destroy the Jewish character of the Israeli democracy.  In less than 3 generations the Arabs would control Israel's government and subject the Jewish citizens to the same 2nd class citizenship they were forced to endure in other Arab countries prior to the formation of Israel.  In fact THAT is the primary motivation to even have a State with a Jewish character.  Some call it racism but if you ask Copts in Egypt if they are fully recognized in an Islamic State then you might gain some perspective.  And for Jews it has always been worse.  These are facts.  So if the Arabs gave way on every Jewish condition for peace but stood firm on right of return it wouldn't matter because that alone would spell the end of Israel as a Jewish homeland.

[MichaelW]

OverSword, on 04 December 2012 - 07:55 PM, said:

Actually I believe that Israel never signed the non-proliferation treaty (Iran did) so are under obligation to disclose nothing, Iran signed and therefore is.

Don't yell at me just kill the lawyers.

Actually, you have a very good point. You can't violate international law if you haven't signed relevant treaties. I don't see why people think this is going to somehow make Israel jump. It isn't obliged to let leaders inspect its nuclear arsenal (possible one of the worst kept secrets out there) and it could just simply say "no" and the NPT and the UN haven't got a leg to stand on.

[Merc14]

I don't think I have words for how much I despise the UN.  It is one of the most corrupt, criminal, inept, ridiculous and absurd organizations on earth and the liberals love it.  F the UN.

[pallidin]

Merc14, on 05 December 2012 - 03:01 AM, said:

I don't think I have words for how much I despise the UN.  It is one of the most corrupt, criminal, inept, ridiculous and absurd organizations on earth and the liberals love it.  F the UN.

Come-on, Merc, don't hold back your feelings. Let them out!

[acidhead]

Erikl, on 04 December 2012 - 07:11 PM, said:

The day Israel will give up it's nuke, it'll start it's count down till destruction.

Egypt, Syria (in whatever form it'll exist after it's civil war is over) and many other Islamic countries will try once again to destroy us.

It does the world no good to hold it hostage.

The people of the current State of Israel must go home.  If I were Israeli I would go to my sister country now.

Creating a 20th century version of Israel has been a failed experiment.

[acidhead]

But, there is hope... once the economy fails and a stake is handed over to all the players... with the USA being the sole protector, of course.

Obama's going to broker this deal and sell it back to America.

I'd bet the farm on it.... and I'm a percentage guy.... I don't believe in fairy tales.

...then again, what did it say about false prophets?

[Raptor Witness]

acidhead, on 05 December 2012 - 07:13 AM, said:

Creating a 20th century version of Israel has been a failed experiment.

These are the wisest words I've heard spoken here on this subject in a long time.

There is no political solution to a religious argument that invites supernatural intervention.

If we wait for this self-fulfilling prophecy to unfold, then I guess it will end in flames, especially if those are the expectations on both sides, including the Christian supporters of Israel in the U.S.

I wonder how many of these so called Christians realize the pain and suffering a third world war will bring to mankind? My guess is zero for those who conveniently believe they'll all be raptured away!

To help start a war, for which you expect to have no price to pay is more than a little arrogant, yet this is the foundation of the lie told repeatedly in pulpits all across America.

I've got news for the rapturists, who believe they'll have no price to pay. You WILL be here, and you will likely all be hunted down, especially if millions die as a result of a religious war that you helped bring about.

You will help set the stage for a war on religion. You will help bring about your Antichrist, this Devil you seek.

Better to let wisdom prevail, and earn the respect of Heaven, without all this bloodshed.

There will be no escape or rapture for the wicked, who invite this war.

No where is it written that men couldn't change the playbook of history. In fact, maybe that's the real test. To see if we'll write our own ending.

Edited by Raptor Witness, 05 December 2012 - 09:05 AM.