90 replies to this topic

[markdohle]

Many people think that opposition to abortion is a religious stance, and for many people this is true. For me it is not. I decided when I was thirteen that I was both an atheist and prolife. I became an atheist because I had no belief in a spiritual reality. I became prolife because my biology class taught a section about the development of the human embryo and fetus. I saw a human life as beginning at conception and stretching in one continuum until the death of that being. I saw that the inclusion of a child into society after birth (but not before) was nothing but a human convention.

To continue:  http://www.fnsa.org/fall98/reed.html

Edited by Still Waters, 27 November 2012 - 12:26 AM.
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[wolfknight]

I can understand your feelings and choice. I believe in prochoice. This is not a religious choice or a government choice. The choice need to the left up the the person or persons having the abortion. I don't believe abortions should be used as birth control. When there is  rape or incest yes an abortion is warrented.

[JGirl]

markdohle, on 26 November 2012 - 01:45 PM, said:

Of course pro life sites will cover it, would not think planned parenthood when publish this. We all have a slant, I would not expect pro choice sites to publish this....yet it happens.  I deal with women who have had abortions, many never get over it, espeicallyi when it comes around to the time when they would have been born, their birthday.  It is not an easy situation for anyone, yet abuses will happen just like anywhere else and should be reported.

Peace
mark

i'm not challenging that pro ife and christian sites report this, i'm stating that they are the ONLY sites reporting it. pro choice sites may not but there are all sorts of news outlets that are not on one side or the other than have not reported it.
in this country something like that would have been all over the news. it has not been, and so far i do not see the details surrounding this 'news'.
i also await your links regarding the foetuses found in trash cans.

[Ciss]

I've been hard put on this subject and have ran a whole gamut of emotions trying to see it from every point of view...I can only end with my point of view of having been a child that was born through a woman that never wanted children and having a dad that was taught to feel and hold himself exempt from anything other than financial obligation (anything more would be un-manly of him).

My parent's generation had very and I mean VERY limited access to any methods of birth control other than the ol' "fight your urges because they're evil and you will burn in hell for it" and that was mostly pointed and geared to the females. I have three siblings,  listening to them spend their lives whining and crying over not having a mother that was more..?  motherly (?) for the lack of any better description which is ultimately saying "I want a woman that can make herself pretend better than the one I got" (and dad was not left out of this complaint) rather than waking up to what is and that being they can not get past their illusions that parents are the individuals that "MUST" sacrifice their own being for that of the child...How many times have I heard one the wee peeps that I gave birth to tell me it's my job to do for them only for me to inform them that their job is to grow the hell up and move far away from me and that they need to busy themselves at that job rather than stand the feck around complaining at me.. my children say of me the same I say of my mother, "she loves us all, but there is no law that says she must like us" and that being so I will not demand of her to pretend that she does...the only reason she ever tried to make herself pretend in the first place was because she loved...

I would hate to ever come to know that I had a choice in me being born or not and into which woman's body I was going to tear my way through...seeing and knowing the pain that my coming to be born has put my mother through and having no knowledge that I could have prevented doing that harm to her, I could only wish that she would have had a doctor that could have helped her to prevent it and whats more a world of peeps that would have never judged her for it...As much as my mother loved me enough to spend her time here trying to make herself be what others deemed as 'the right way to be, I love her enough that I would have gladly chose not to be at all rather than inflict such things on her...

I will say it again! If I was god all you peeps under 30 yrs would only know of one tree in the garden...be growing some major birth control fruit! and the only law is your azz will eat from it..or you can chose to burn in hell (let me not forget to through in some 'free will' choices here)

[minera]

I am just wondering why people are not concerned about all the children born into poverty and famine who die slow and agonizing deaths from disease and starvation.......aren't they human enough?

[glorybebe]

Likely Guy, on 26 November 2012 - 05:12 AM, said:

If it is illegal abortions, I still can't figure where StatsCan has listed them (or how they could have). The whole thing doesn't make sense.

P.S.: 3 months doesn't equal 36 weeks. Typo?

more like brain fart.  Lol, sorry

[Professor Buzzkill]

I don't see why 20weeks is seen as a line in the sand. Babies are dependant on their mothers until at least 24months old, and cannot survive without her feeding and caring for him/her. How is an 8 months old different than 8 weeks after conception? Both cannot survive without the mother/caregiver, its just that one hasn't travelled down the birth canal.

Yes i know that an 8 week old fetus does not look the same, but its DNA is the same, its chances of life are the same.

[RavenEyes19]

I don't know why someone would wait so long honestly.  I'd have one done as early as possible before a nervous system and brain are formed.

Some women don't ever want children and birth control isn't 100 percent effective. I know someone who got pregnant with her husband while using two forms of birth control. It's unlikely, but it happens. And some women can't use the pill or other contraceptives that release hormones because of side effects. Personally, I'm absolutely certain that I never want children for a number of reasons (inlcuding not wanting to pass my genes on because schizophrenia runs heavily in my family) If I could get a tubal ligation I would, but I know no doctor will do this even though I'm almost 27. They only agreed to do it for my friend (who's older than me) after she popped out 3 kids. It seems like doctors are more likely to respect a man's choice of getting a vasectomy, but with women it's always 'oh you might change your mind just wait'

[Beckys_Mom]

Professor Buzzkill, on 26 November 2012 - 09:00 PM, said:

. Babies are dependant on their mothers until at least 24months old

Can you explain more on what you mean by - dependant until at least 24 months?   Children are dependant on their mothers  for a lot longer than 2 years ..

Quote

How is an 8 months old different than 8 weeks after conception?

8 weeks after conception, the foetus  is  still in the developing stages..   Here is a useful link that takes you through the developing stages of the baby, throughout the pregnancy

Click here -> http://www.webmd.com...eek-weeks-31-34

There is a brave difference between 8 weeks pregnant and 8 months pregnant..Huge difference in the babys growing/ development stages

Quote

  Yes i know that an 8 week old fetus does not look the same, but its DNA is the same, its chances of life are the same.

I'm afraid you are wrong on that..   If a foetus  is released from the womb at  just 8 weeks (  normally called a miscarriage ) it would be  very impossible for it to survive..  It would have two hopes -  Bob Hope and No  hope !!

A baby born at 8 months has a greater  ( and most higher ) chance of living.. This is fact

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 26 November 2012 - 11:28 PM.

[markdohle]

minera, on 26 November 2012 - 04:49 PM, said:

I am just wondering why people are not concerned about all the children born into poverty and famine who die slow and agonizing deaths from disease and starvation.......aren't they human enough?

With that kind of logic, none of us should have been born but aborted.  No one knows what his or her life will be like.  Many in third world countries live long and productive lives.

peace
mark

[markdohle]

While there are a number of medical risks associated with abortion and significant evidence that abortion increases the likelihood of contracting breast cancer, there is another threat that is tied to the abortion clinics themselves.
No matter what anyone believes about abortion in theory, no matter how adamantly a woman argues for abortion rights in public, most women go to great lengths to ensure that their own abortion remains a secret. Why is this so? Because abortion, unlike any other common surgical procedure, carries with it very high levels of guilt and shame. Whether this is the product of social expectation or internal conviction, the end result is the same. Women want to keep their abortion hidden and get it over with as quickly as possible. This intense desire for secrecy makes them vulnerable on two fronts.

^{Read more:  http://www.abort73.c...tial_for_abuse/}

Edited by Still Waters, 27 November 2012 - 12:20 AM.
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[Professor Buzzkill]

Beckys_Mom, on 26 November 2012 - 11:18 PM, said:

Can you explain more on what you mean by - dependant until at least 24 months?   Children are dependant on their mothers  for a lot longer than 2 years ..



8 weeks after conception, the foetus  is  still in the developing stages..   Here is a useful link that takes you through the developing stages of the baby, throughout the pregnancy

Click here -> http://www.webmd.com...eek-weeks-31-34

There is a brave difference between 8 weeks pregnant and 8 months pregnant..Huge difference in the babys growing/ development stages



I'm afraid you are wrong on that..   If a foetus  is released from the womb at  just 8 weeks (  normally called a miscarriage ) it would be  very impossible for it to survive..  It would have two hopes -  Bob Hope and No  hope !!

A baby born at 8 months has a greater  ( and most higher ) chance of living.. This is fact

You have taken me out of context here. I am not talking about an 8 week old fetus being removed from its mother. And the 8 month old child was born (get this) 8 months ago.


Let me pose my question differently. Why can we remove an 8 week old fetus from its mother to kill it, when we cannot remove an 8 month old child from its mother to kill it? Both are getting all their nurishment through the mother, both cannot survive without her constant attention and care. The only difference is one has passed through the birth canal and one has not.

Yes there are different physical charateristics, and people often discribe early fetus' as "a cluster of cells", but both have the exact same chance of becoming "human"

[Beckys_Mom]

Professor Buzzkill, on 27 November 2012 - 12:01 AM, said:

Let me pose my question differently. Why can we remove an 8 week old fetus from its mother to kill it, when we cannot remove an 8 month old child from its mother to kill it?

To sum up what I said before -  One is not a baby .. the other is..

At 8 months its an almost fully developed baby..the 8 week foetus is not..  Many will class it as murder if you kill a baby at 8 months, and the law will too, that is why they draw the line after 20 weeks in many places, it's done for a reason

EXAMPLE -  If a mother is 8 months pregnant  ( or a little over ) and she is faced with a critical medical situation, that can result to her own death..  What the doctors  will do is, remove the baby  by C-Section  ..  Do what they can to save  BOTH mother and child.. They wouldn't be likely or able to do that with an 8 week old foetus ..

Quote

  Yes there are different physical charateristics, and people often discribe early fetus' as "a cluster of cells", but both have the exact same chance of becoming "human"     

Only  one is human .. The eight month old baby is a human..a baby human ... The 8 week old foetus  is not, it is still developing and has a long way to go .. When a woman is 8 months pregnant, her baby  can survive, where the 8 week old foetus cannot..   Both are worlds apart.  I explained this previously..

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 27 November 2012 - 12:30 AM.

[JGirl]

markdohle, on 26 November 2012 - 11:53 PM, said:

With that kind of logic, none of us should have been born but aborted.  No one knows what his or her life will be like.  Many in third world countries live long and productive lives.

peace
mark

i think he/she is referring specifically to those who are starving and dying horrible slow deaths, not the minority you speak of.
btw, still waiting for those links re: foetuses in trash cans

[Hilander]

Society frowns on many things and those things we feel the need to keep secret.  You don't broadcast to everyone your getting an abortion, face lift, tummy tuck, posed nude or cheating either for fear of being judged and people usually will.