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US not Bound by Torture Laws


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#1    Lottie

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Posted 07 June 2004 - 11:24 PM

A Pentagon report last year argued that President George W Bush was not bound by laws banning the use of torture, according to the Wall Street Journal.  

The document also argued that torturers acting under presidential orders could not be prosecuted, the paper said.

The report was written by military and civilian lawyers for US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.

It came after staff at Guantanamo Bay complained normal interrogation tactics were not eliciting enough information.

The document outlined why restrictions on torture under US laws and international treaties might be overcome by considerations for national security or legal technicalities, the newspaper reported.

Vital intelligence

The draft argued that because nothing was more important than "obtaining intelligence vital to the protection of untold thousands of American citizens" normal strictures on torture might not apply, according to the Journal.

The report contended that the president, as commander-in-chief, has the authority to approve almost any physical or psychological actions during interrogation, including torture, the newspaper reported.

It said it had reviewed a draft dated 6 March, 2003, and had not seen the full final report.

But people familiar with the final text said there were few substantial changes from the draft version, the Wall Street Journal added.

It is not known whether President George W Bush has ever seen the report.  

The Bush administration has said it supports the Geneva Conventions and humane treatment for detainees.

Source: BBC News


#2    Talon

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Posted 07 June 2004 - 11:57 PM

Thing is, if we don't support Geneva Convention, then what does that tell the rest of the world.

Now I can totally understand torture to get important information, however it then means we have no right to complain when they torture our people. At least I hope they use non-physical torture such as sleep deprivation, as opposed to beatings.

But seriously, does this mean that Geneva is no longer important? ... (this comming from someone who has stated before they'd just mass execute terrorists  huh.gif ... ah, I'm not the government, I'd don't have to be consistent  grin2.gif ... but they should  disgust.gif )

Edited by Talon S., 07 June 2004 - 11:58 PM.

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#3    doomgirl

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Posted 08 June 2004 - 04:12 AM

There's no need for torture when you have things like the truth serum disgust.gif  

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#4    bathory

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Posted 08 June 2004 - 04:15 AM

QUOTE
There's no need for torture when you have things like the truth serum


yeah, right rolleyes.gif  


#5    joc

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Posted 08 June 2004 - 04:28 AM

QUOTE
There's no need for torture when you have things like the truth serum  disgust.gif


Truth Serum will not get a person to tell you everything you need/want to know.  Some are more conditioned to overcome drug inducement than others.

Torture involves pain.   Pain will not really get a person to tell you everything that you need/want to know either.  The most effective way to extract information from an individual is from creating 'fear' in their mind.  If you threaten some people with bashing their toes with a sledge hammer they will tell you anything.  Not because of pain rather because of 'fear' of pain.  Fear is the great mind killer.
However sometimes you will encounter those who will either not believe you will actually bash their toes or are not afraid of the pain of a good bashing...in those instances it may be necessary to do a little bashing...creating pain,  then rethreatening with more pain, which will hopefully then instill fear and lead to the extracation of information.  Enough pain will eventually create enough fear to get you what you want.  There is always the possibility though that one will give you false information.   Again 'fear' is a great motivator for giving accurate, varifiable information.

Sometimes it is best just to take them out back and shoot them in the head if they refuse to cooperate altogether...this then hopefully will instill fear in the rest. tongue.gif  

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#6    Dowdy

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Posted 08 June 2004 - 07:10 AM

i heard on the news that the US soldiers tourtured a guy by dipping his head in water until he almost drowned to make him talk.
It worked and the guy told the whereabouts of several terrorists

THE PAOMNNEHAL PWEOR OF THE HMUAN MNID Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh? I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdgnieg. Can you? ;)

#7    Stamford

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Posted 08 June 2004 - 08:25 AM

QUOTE
Sometimes it is best just to take them out back and shoot them in the head if they refuse to cooperate altogether...this then hopefully will instill fear in the rest


I note the use of the smiley after the above, joc, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt and asume that you are attempting a bit of humour.

I think, as Talon stated, that if we are going to go down that road we must therefore accept the torture of our own guys.

We are moving into a dangerous area where we advocate the abuse of human rights.

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#8    Kismit

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Posted 08 June 2004 - 09:20 AM



Excuse me for bein a thickey ....'Truth Serum ? Is that really ,real?' huh.gif

  


#9    Stamford

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Posted 08 June 2004 - 09:27 AM

QUOTE
Excuse me for bein a thickey ....'Truth Serum ? Is that really ,real?'


Without wanting to make light of a very bad situation, I have often found beer to be quite effective!  wacko.gif  

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#10    Talon

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Posted 08 June 2004 - 12:10 PM

QUOTE
There's no need for torture when you have things like the truth serum


QUOTE
Excuse me for bein a thickey ....'Truth Serum ? Is that really ,real?'


QUOTE
Truth Serum will not get a person to tell you everything you need/want to know. Some are more conditioned to overcome drug inducement than others.


Indeed it is real, and indeed Joc is right. Truth serum acts as a hallucinogenic and unless its a specific thing you looking for, like a terrorists name, then what you get out of the guy tends to be influenced by his own fantasies as much as the truth. For that reason, it absolutely useless if you want to get terrorist plans, numbers, operations etc


QUOTE
Torture involves pain.


I don't know about America, but under European law sleep deprivation (stopping people sleeping), muscle deprivation (holding that same position of hours), and making people go hours without toilet breaks (for example at work) are all forms of torture, and illegal. However they are methods used by all western powers in torture.

QUOTE
Pain will not really get a person to tell you everything that you need/want to know either.


Thatís true as well, beating usually just make people say what they think you want to hear as opposed to the truth. In Vietnam, both US and North Vietnamese beat POWs for information, it rarely got reliable results. The US then moved onto the above the three methods along with sense deprivation (were they were blinding and their hearing blocked to create a sense of isolation, as a social animal humans often break under it).

QUOTE
The most effective way to extract information from an individual is from creating 'fear' in their mind. If you threaten some people with bashing their toes with a sledge hammer they will tell you anything. Not because of pain rather because of 'fear' of pain. Fear is the great mind killer.


This is another torture method used in Vietnam, were the US told the North POWs, if you don't tell us what you know, we'll give you to the South and turn our backs for a few hours. It sometimes work, the other times they really did give them to the South.



QUOTE
Sometimes it is best just to take them out back and shoot them in the head if they refuse to cooperate altogether...this then hopefully will instill fear in the rest. 


And so Geneva goes down the toilet, and they kill ours people in retaliation.  grin2.gif This was however also used by North Vietnamese.

QUOTE
We are moving into a dangerous area where we advocate the abuse of human rights.


True, unfortunately torture can save lives with the info it reveals, but then again is it morally wrong and we have signed treaties against it. We're doomed no matter what we do. sad.gif


Edited by Talon S., 08 June 2004 - 12:12 PM.

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." -Plato

#11    joc

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Posted 08 June 2004 - 12:36 PM

QUOTE
We're doomed no matter what we do.


In order for you to meet your own challenge Talon, of becoming Great,  it is essential that you overcome all negatives.   It is really quite simple:  Just say the opposite,  we are not doomed, somehow we shall overcome!.  It isn't really necessary that you believe it because your subconcious cannot discern the truth from a lie.  It simply catagorizes the thought for future reference.

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#12    Talon

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Posted 08 June 2004 - 12:49 PM

Due you charge for writting that in English?  huh.gif  tongue.gif  

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#13    Lottie

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Posted 08 June 2004 - 01:46 PM

As I have said before, I don't agree with torture. However...When dealing with a terrorist who will brutally kill you and others without batting an eyelid and has information that can save lives than this is the only way. The thing is its okay for civilians to argue that this is wrong etc etc but most of us have never been involved in warfare. When one is fighting for their life as our troops do day to day against people who don't care who they kill and if they die anyway, this is the only way...unfortunately.


#14    joc

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Posted 08 June 2004 - 01:51 PM

QUOTE
Due you charge for writting that in English?


Oh, was that Greek to you...?   Elaboration does require a small fee.

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#15    Talon

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Posted 08 June 2004 - 02:03 PM

darn...  sad.gif  

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." -Plato




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