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#241    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 10:49 PM

View PostJor-el, on 03 January 2013 - 09:50 PM, said:

I finally understood what you were trying to say... the link provided a source for the quote... Annales Ecclesiastici, Caesar Baronius, Folio Antwerp, 1597, tome 14.

The point, is BM that you don't have to go to the Vatican archives or library to get hold of the document, I quickly found a link Dr. D. posted for it , you can read it online.... although it is in Latin. ;)

Source: http://archive.org/d...ecclesias14baro

Now heres the latin phrase in Question "quantum nobis notrisque hace fabula de Christo profuerit notum est", go for it...

I downloaded the PDF version and just searched for individual words or parts of the phrase... it ain't there.

Please by all means, feel free to read the following..


Raising a chalice of wine into the air, Pope Leo toasted:......"How well we know what a profitable superstition this fable of Christ has been for us and our predecessors."


The pope's pronouncement is recorded in the diaries and records of both Pietro Cardinal Bembo (Letters and Comments on Pope Leo X, 1842 reprint) and Paolo Cardinal Giovio (De Vita Leonis Decimi..., op. cit.), two associates who were witnesses to it.


Caesar (Cardinal) Baronius (1538-1607) was Vatican librarian for seven years and wrote a 12-volume history of the Church, known as Annales Ecclesiastici. He was the Church's most outstanding historian (Catholic Encyclopedia, New Edition, 1976, ii, p. 105) and his records provide vital inside information for anybody studying the rich depth of falsification in Christianity.


Cardinal Baronius, who turned down two offers to become pope in 1605, added the following comments about Pope Leo's declaration:


"The Pontiff has been accused of atheism, for he denied God and called Christ, in front of cardinals Pietro Bembo, Jovius and Iacopo Sadoleto and other intimates, 'a fable' ... it must be corrected".
(Annales Ecclesiastici, op. cit., tomes viii and xi)


In an early edition of the Catholic Encyclopedia (Pecci ed., iii, pp. 312-314, passim), the Church devoted two-and-half pages in an attempt to nullify the most destructive statement ever made by the head of Christianity. It based the essence of its argument on the assumption that what the pope meant by "profitable" was "gainful", and "fable" was intended to mean "tradition".


Hence, confused Catholic theologians argued that what the pope really meant was,


"How well Christians have gained from this wonderful tradition of Christ".


But that isn't what he said.


It is from Christianity's own records that Pope Leo's statement became known to the world. In his diaries, Cardinal Bembo, the Pope's secretary for seven years, added that Leo:


"...was known to disbelieve Christianity itself. He advanced contrary to the faith and that in condemning the Gospel, therefore he must be a heretic; he was guilty of sodomy with his chamberlains; was addicted to pleasure, luxury, idleness, ambition, unchastity and sensuality; and spent his whole days in the company of musicians and buffoons. His Infallibility's drunkenness was proverbial, he practiced incontinency as well as inebriation, and the effects of his crimes shattered the people's constitution."
(Letters and Comments on Pope Leo X, ibid.)


On behalf of the Church, Cardinal Baronius officially defended Pope Leo's declaration, saying it was "an invention of his corroded mind" (Annales Ecclesiastici, op. cit., tome iv), but in applauding the pope's tyrannical conduct supported the essence of his testimony on the grounds of the infallibility of the Church of Rome:


"Of his wicked miscarriages, we, having had before a careful deliberation with our brethren and the Holy Council, and many others, and although he was unworthy to hold the place of St Peter on Earth, Pope Leo the Great [440-461] originally determined that the dignity of Peter suffers no diminution even in an unworthy successor.


In regard to the keys, as Vicar of Christ he rendered himself to put forth this knowledge truly; and all do assent to it, so that none dissent who does not fall from the Church; the infamy of his testimonial and conduct is readily pardoned and forgotten."
(Annales Ecclesiastici, ibid.)


Later, John Bale (1495-1563) seized upon Pope Leo's confession and the subsequent Vatican admission that the pope had spoken the truth about the "fable of Christ" and "put forward this knowledge truly" (Annales Ecclesiastici, ibid.). Bale was an Englishman who had earlier joined the Carmelites but abandoned the order after the Inquisition slaughtered his family (Of the Five Plagues of the Church [originally titled The Five Wounds of the Church], Count Antonio Rosmini [Catholic priest and papal adviser], 1848, English trans. by Prof. David L. Wilhelm, Russell Square Publishing, London, 1889).


http://www.bibliotec..._vatican30c.htm

And, on that note it is over for me.. I have read more than enough to convince me that indeed he did say it..  You can carry on trying to drag this on and on  IF you wish..but I stop at this.. I am happy enough with what I have read and I need not get into this any further..   I don't always have the time  ( due to having a new baby around the house )  ..So forgive me, but I am not going to waste any more time, searching, downloading and the rest that goes with it   If you disagree with it all fine, but it wont change my own position.... I am convinced enough with what I have found and posted..

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 03 January 2013 - 10:50 PM.

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#242    Jor-el

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:14 AM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 03 January 2013 - 10:49 PM, said:

Please by all means, feel free to read the following..

And, on that note it is over for me.. I have read more than enough to convince me that indeed he did say it..  You can carry on trying to drag this on and on  IF you wish..but I stop at this.. I am happy enough with what I have read and I need not get into this any further..   I don't always have the time  ( due to having a new baby around the house )  ..So forgive me, but I am not going to waste any more time, searching, downloading and the rest that goes with it   If you disagree with it all fine, but it wont change my own position.... I am convinced enough with what I have found and posted..

I did read it, it was posted on UM in another thread on this issue...

Well... I did bother and I did take the trouble (hours of it) to check...

Letters and Comments on Pope Leo X, 1842 reprint by Pietro Bembo

Regarding the above book, it does NOT exist, except as a vague link in publications like the one you just quoted. Mainly the source is quoted verbatim on numerous sites... I did find a copy of a book called "De Lettere" written by him. I will see if it is there it will take some time to go through it.

Source: http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

Paolo Cardinal Giovio - De Vita Leonis Decimi (Paulus Jovius - Vita De Leonis X)

The book can be found online and again it is not there.

Source: http://www.tertullia...de_leonis_x.htm

I would readily accept it if there were such a document, but what we do seem to have is a very interesting fraud. I'll see whether the 1st book I linked above confirms the "rumour"... or not.

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#243    SpiritWriter

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:17 AM

View Postblind pew, on 25 December 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

Why would anybody worship a god that allows children to be molested and killed? If you want my worship you need to give something in return.

What has god not given you?

The letter kills but The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one sided and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible. -Jung

#244    Paranoid Android

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:24 AM

View PostJor-el, on 04 January 2013 - 12:14 AM, said:

Letters and Comments on Pope Leo X, 1842 reprint by Pietro Bembo

Regarding the above book, it does NOT exist, except as a vague link in publications like the one you just quoted. Mainly the source is quoted verbatim on numerous sites...


Paolo Cardinal Giovio - De Vita Leonis Decimi (Paulus Jovius - Vita De Leonis X)

The book can be found online and again it is not there.
Inventing sources is not a new practice for those wishing to push an agenda.  I'm not surprised that the two texts quoted either 1- don't exist, or 2- if they exist they contain no such quote.

Unfortunately the internet is filled with bad research, and people who look at websites aren't aware that the person has fraudulently quoted something.

Edited by Paranoid Android, 04 January 2013 - 12:25 AM.

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#245    SpiritWriter

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:27 AM

We can quibble for a million more years and continue not to look at the resurection of souls who have come to life again because of the gospel... I have seen too much holy ghost power to reject christ over anyones interpretation of a certain text. God jumped out of the text...  boo! Didnt mean to spook you... God is real and so are his messengers and saviors dispite who was in charge of documents... etc... judiasm is far more historic than the pope and his unbelieving dinner party...



The letter kills but The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one sided and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible. -Jung

#246    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 02:04 AM

View PostJor-el, on 04 January 2013 - 12:14 AM, said:

I did read it, it was posted on UM in another thread on this issue...

Well... I did bother and I did take the trouble (hours of it) to check...

Letters and Comments on Pope Leo X, 1842 reprint by Pietro Bembo

Regarding the above book, it does NOT exist, except as a vague link in publications like the one you just quoted. Mainly the source is quoted verbatim on numerous sites... I did find a copy of a book called "De Lettere" written by him. I will see if it is there it will take some time to go through it.

Source: http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

Paolo Cardinal Giovio - De Vita Leonis Decimi (Paulus Jovius - Vita De Leonis X)

The book can be found online and again it is not there.

Source: http://www.tertullia...de_leonis_x.htm

I would readily accept it if there were such a document, but what we do seem to have is a very interesting fraud. I'll see whether the 1st book I linked above confirms the "rumour"... or not.

Are you saying, that because something that you find cannot be referenced on the internet, then it does not exist?................. Like this one -Annales Ecclesiastici, op. cit., tomes viii and xi   In an early edition of the Catholic Encyclopaedia

Caesar (Cardinal) Baronius (1538-1607) was Vatican librarian for seven years and wrote a 12-volume history of the Church, known as Annales Ecclesiastici. He was the Church's most outstanding historian (Catholic Encyclopedia, New Edition, 1976, ii, p. 105) and his records provide vital inside information for anybody studying the rich depth of falsification in Christianity. Cardinal Baronius, who turned down two offers to become pope in 1605, added the following comments about Pope Leo's declaration:
"The Pontiff has been accused of atheism, for he denied God and called Christ, in front of cardinals Pietro Bembo, Jovius and Iacopo Sadoleto and other intimates, 'a fable' ... it must be corrected".
(Annales Ecclesiastici, op. cit., tomes viii and xi)   His book with that info  can indeed be found here -> http://books.google....id=dPI-AAAAcAAJ

Paolo Cardinal Giovio's De Vita Leonis Decimi ( The Life Of Leo ) found here -> http://www.tertullia..._leonis_x.htm   I'll tell you one thing, I am not taking up Italian just so I can translate it to add to this discussion  

View PostJor-el, on 03 January 2013 - 06:36 PM, said:

BM, I said the exact same thing, I don't deny the guy was the worst kind of person, I personally stated all of what you said earlier.

That being said, that particular Pope was anything but a believer, just as the one before him. They were politicians, pure and simple. Murder, Rape, Blackmail, Coercion, Fraud, all was acceptable, to gain the highest office in the land and keep it... Real believing christians were slaughtered left right and center by these mens unquenchable thirst for power. Let their family names bring what you know of history to mind, the de' Medicis' and the Borgia.

What I do find strange and a tad ironic  is.. how some believers, will have no problem in believing that this very same pope was corrupted  ( murder, rape, blackmail and so on )  BUT  there is no way he would have said anything like that ?  Really now?  
That's like saying -> "Here is  Pope Numpty lll, he is guilty of fraud  rape, kidnapping, the occasional act of murder, but hey at least he didn't eat  meat on a Friday.. Don't dare suggest he would do such a horrid thing, because eating meat on a Friday back then was just so wrong.. :huh:..... He was the most powerful man in the land, who was going to hold him accountable for it?  Whether he said this line or not?   I seriously cannot understand your denial of this issue, but I can see the irony of your statement!

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 04 January 2013 - 03:00 AM.

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#247    Paranoid Android

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 07:06 AM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 04 January 2013 - 02:04 AM, said:

What I do find strange and a tad ironic  is.. how some believers, will have no problem in believing that this very same pope was corrupted  ( murder, rape, blackmail and so on )  BUT  there is no way he would have said anything like that ?
It's not a matter of being ironic.  It's an historically verifiable fact that Pope Leo X was a villain.  There is plenty of evidence that this is the case.  It is not an historically verifiable fact that Pope Leo X said anything about the myth/fable of Christ.  Is it something Pope Leo MIGHT have said, or COULD have said?  Very possibly.  But is it something he DID say?  As far as we know, there's no evidence of that.  The earliest known source for the quote is a work of fiction satirising the Catholic Church.  The sites you posted before are (according to Jor-el) either inventing the book entirely or attributing something to the book that is not there.  Considering that elsewhere on the net I have found many many sources that admit John Bale as the most likely origin of the quote,  the logical answer to this is that somehow the sites you quoted mixed up their information.

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#248    blind pew

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 05:32 PM

View PostSpiritWriter, on 04 January 2013 - 12:17 AM, said:

What has god not given you?
What has this so called god not given me? I'll tell you what it's given me, a life of depression, despair, and grief after I lost my wife and child that's what it's given me. Any more questions?


#249    Jor-el

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 09:58 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 04 January 2013 - 02:04 AM, said:

Are you saying, that because something that you find cannot be referenced on the internet, then it does not exist?................. Like this one -Annales Ecclesiastici, op. cit., tomes viii and xi   In an early edition of the Catholic Encyclopaedia

If it cannot be found in any database, then yes, we must doubt its existence. We don't have to neccesarily have it online, but translations of the book should exist by scholars, mention of the book should exist elswhere beside the conspiracy theory sites you have mentioned. They are actually the ONLY ONES who mention the book at all.

The book in question, (to be absolutely clear) is Letters and Comments on Pope Leo X, 1842 reprint by Cardinal Pietro Bembo. I will even accept other versions of the book, not just the reprint of 1842. Most books have been published time and again over the years and centuries. How can this book not be mentioned absolutely anywhere, but the conspiracy sites? Amazon or any other online retailer should have the book for sale. Universities should mention it in their studies and their bibliographies and Finally, when you look up all the works ever published by Pietro Bembo. The book appears nowhere at all.... That to me is a huge andicator that something smells fishy.


That being said I did find a book called Lettere by Cardinal Bembo, if this is the book inwhich the allegation is made, I will find it. and publish it here, the same being said if I don't find it. I'm looking for any reference to the dinner inwhich Leo X supposedly stated this quote. I will look up the names of the supposed witnesses and check if they even appear in the book.

We can quote numerous people who relate the quotes in books and sites, like the one you posted below, the point is are those quotes truthful? Do they actually exist? It is very easy to say that something is quoted in a book, if one wants to maintain a modicum of Honesty, the quote had better be there.

Quote

Caesar (Cardinal) Baronius (1538-1607) was Vatican librarian for seven years and wrote a 12-volume history of the Church, known as Annales Ecclesiastici. He was the Church's most outstanding historian (Catholic Encyclopedia, New Edition, 1976, ii, p. 105) and his records provide vital inside information for anybody studying the rich depth of falsification in Christianity. Cardinal Baronius, who turned down two offers to become pope in 1605, added the following comments about Pope Leo's declaration:
"The Pontiff has been accused of atheism, for he denied God and called Christ, in front of cardinals Pietro Bembo, Jovius and Iacopo Sadoleto and other intimates, 'a fable' ... it must be corrected".
(Annales Ecclesiastici, op. cit., tomes viii and xi)   His book with that info  can indeed be found here -> http://books.google....id=dPI-AAAAcAAJ

Again, to be quite clear, the reference is given to two individual books, Tome (Volume) VIII and Tome XI.

Annales Ecclesiastici, Volume VIII

In volume 8, we find the word fable "fabula" 3 times (pgs 339, 513 and 546). Not once in connection with Leo X or even regarding said quote.

Annales Ecclesiastici, Volume XI

In volume 11, the word fable "fabula" doesn't even appear.

I also searched in both volumes, the names of Pietro Bembo, Paolo Cardinal Giovio and Iacopo Sadoleto... I found nothing, zero, they are not even mentioned, not even when searched by surname alone. Come on, this just begs the question, why are these quotes supposedly being used when the books themselves don't even have them?

Quote

Paolo Cardinal Giovio's De Vita Leonis Decimi ( The Life Of Leo ) found here -> http://www.tertullia..._leonis_x.htm   I'll tell you one thing, I am not taking up Italian just so I can translate it to add to this discussion  

Yes BM, I myself gave you that link earlier on, the word fable "fabula", does not appear once. You don't have to take Italian, or Latin, you have a search function, use it and then use a translator. You can get the jist of the meaning quite clearly. The context is immediately apparant.

http://translate.google.com/

Quote

What I do find strange and a tad ironic  is.. how some believers, will have no problem in believing that this very same pope was corrupted  ( murder, rape, blackmail and so on )  BUT  there is no way he would have said anything like that ?  Really now?  
That's like saying -> "Here is  Pope Numpty lll, he is guilty of fraud  rape, kidnapping, the occasional act of murder, but hey at least he didn't eat  meat on a Friday.. Don't dare suggest he would do such a horrid thing, because eating meat on a Friday back then was just so wrong.. :huh:..... He was the most powerful man in the land, who was going to hold him accountable for it?  Whether he said this line or not?   I seriously cannot understand your denial of this issue, but I can see the irony of your statement!

BM, I have not once said that I don't believe or cannot believe that this Pope could not have said those words. What I do not accept is the historical accuracy of the alleged quote. There is no record that I have found that even mentions the subject... except in the very conspiracy sites I mentioned earlier. Could he have said it? Sure, Do we have any evidence in the records of such a thing? NO

Probability is NOT History. The quote is probably false and if that book I promised to search also has nothing, then it is DEFINITELY false. My last word on this subject will be the details of my findings.

Edited by Jor-el, 04 January 2013 - 10:09 PM.

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#250    hooko22

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 05:11 AM

View PostLava_Lady, on 02 January 2013 - 09:56 PM, said:

What kind of cookie??? <_<  :huh:

Oops sorry, I have been away for seven days and seven nights and I have in my hand a divine cookie. Divine is a special flavour kinda like chocolate or strawberry, just more aloof!

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 01:27 PM

View Postblind pew, on 25 December 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

Why would anybody worship a god that allows children to be molested and killed?

It's people that do this stuff, not God. That's the price for free will I guess.


#252    SpiritWriter

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 06:51 PM

View Postblind pew, on 04 January 2013 - 05:32 PM, said:


What has this so called god not given me? I'll tell you what it's given me, a life of depression, despair, and grief after I lost my wife and child that's what it's given me. Any more questions?

Im sorry that happened to you. I know you are angry I hope that you will find peace... God gives and takes away but also gives us peace. Depression is not from God, anything that keeps us down, is bad for our health and begins to spread to other people is not the direction God has planned for us. For some reason you have had to endure an unfair hardship. Loosing a loved one and further more your child is beyond my comprehension and I dont know how I would respond if it happened to me. I would probably go crazy but I would also probably lean on God more heavily, going through that without him, would be aweful - for me. And yes i would ask WHY. You are not alone in the world friend.. there are others who have lost like you have, I dont know if you considered going to a support group or not but maybe that would help.  Take care....

The letter kills but The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one sided and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible. -Jung

#253    Hasina

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 06:54 PM

Why? Why not?

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#254    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 10:39 PM

Jorel, please forgive my late reply to this.. It's been hectic here at home.. With it being the weekend and having two kids to look after, you know yourself it can be a handful...!!!

View PostJor-el, on 04 January 2013 - 09:58 PM, said:

If it cannot be found in any database, then yes, we must doubt its existence.

I thought there would be documents that are not released.. Like from the Vatican itself?

Anyway.. back to the important part of our discussion...  I took some time late last night  ( when kids eventually went to sleep )  to look up and see if I can research info that would help us out, as I noticed you have been working on it too, I also checked out your links in your previous post

I first clicked on the links you gave me... I too found some links to ( what I hope ) could be most helpful..

I'll take you through what I have been doing...

I first looked up the site .. I found what you would call the conspiracy site from an Australian author who goes by the name of - Tony Bushby ..

Info on this Australian Author...

Tony Bushby was born in Australia and has written seven books, all of which are regarded as classics in their genre. Tony’s books have received worldwide acclaim and some are curricular reading in American universities and Enlightenment centers. Early in his life, he qualified as an Architectural Draughtsman, and later established a structural design business. He then developed his own publishing business and spent 20 years writing and publishing colour magazines for the Australian and New Zealand markets.Some of his titles were;
Relieving Arthritis; The Renovators Guidebook; 100 Home Plans and What They Cost to Build; The Immigrants Guide to Australia
,some motoring magazines, and various other topics. He writes for articles for international magazines, some recent topics being,
‘Ancient Cities Under the Sands of Giza’, ‘Celestial Prophecies and the Great Pyramid’, ‘Zoomorphic Beings and the Missing Link’, ‘The Forged Origins of Christianity,’ ‘Shambhala, Valley of the Immortals,’and‘The Pedophile Pope; the truth about Pope John Paul II’.
Tony is held in high regard for his book and documentary articles on Near-death Experiences, and has personally interviewed over 600 people who have glimpsed the Afterlife. While living in Cairo, he had access to ancient papyri in the Rare Manuscripts Room in Egypt’s Alexandrian Library and was privileged to explore subterranean temples under the sands of Giza not open to the public. Tony is constantly seeking new evidence about the Truth of the past, and incessantly gathers together provocative information that challenges the basis of our core beliefs. In general, he has developed a specialism in a non-orthodox approach to Christianity and Egyptology, and adopts the attitude that ‘regardless of how many people may be disturbed,there are no religions superior to the historic Truth

http://www.scribd.co...rd-Edition-2011

It turns out this guy cannot be contacted.It tells you that he keeps his life private, so I imagine it would be hard to contact him.... I was hoping I could at least find an email for him,asking him to help me out with the letters and how to get a hold of the book if any  etc ?

I then moved on to reading his work ...
The Criminal History of the Papacy - Part 3 - by Tony Bushby - Extracted from Nexus Magazine, Volume 14, Number 3 That mentions the letters and Pope Leo's proclamation and so on

Seen on this site - http://loveforlife.c...volume-14-numbe

I later researched some more  I wanted to look at Annales Ecclesiastici, Caesar Baronius, Folio Antwerp, 1597, tome 14) and so I found this archive -  http://archive.org/s...are, 1538-1607"
I then clicked on the archive link and  it looked like this....

Author:Baronio, Cesare, 1538-1607; Raynaldus, Odorico, 1595-1671; Laderchii, James, 1678-1738; Theiner, Augustin, 1804-1874
Volume:14
Subject:Catholic Church; Church history
Publisher:Barri-Ducis : Guerin
Possible copyright status:NOT_IN_COPYRIGHT
Language:Latin
Call number:AMW-4930
Digitizing sponsor:University of Toronto
Book contributor:Robarts - University of Toronto
Collection:robarts; toronto
Notes:No TOC
Scanfactors:21

Full catalog record:MARCXML

Posted ImageThis book has an editable web page on Open Library.

But I don't know how to use it well because this is the first time I have ever attempted anything like this before.. I hope you understand..Maybe you would be better with it than I

After that I went on researching more, along with looking up the Latin word for letters, which happens to be - EPISTOLAE  (  Meaning collection of letters  )  and looked up info on the letters written by Pietro Bembo .. And later, I came across what I think could be them .. Go here - https://play.google....l=en&pg=GBS.PP5 ... But now I am stuck and I don't know how to search it well..

I thought if I showed it to you, that you may have a better idea than I ?... Here is the site from where I found the book of letters -> http://books.google....id=Av87AAAAcAAJ

It occurred to me that maybe the texts were written in OLD LATIN and not modern Latin? ( Please note, I said maybe the texts are in old Latin, it is just a hunch ) .. So I tried to see if I could get my hands on  a translator, that can translate from English to old Latin?  
I found one, but they ask for money.. so sod that  lol ..  Can you see if maybe you can find something that can translate English to old Latin?

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 05 January 2013 - 11:08 PM.

Posted ImageRAW Berris... Dare you enter?

If there's a heaven...I hope to hell I get there !

#255    Jor-el

Jor-el

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 08:53 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 05 January 2013 - 10:39 PM, said:

Jorel, please forgive my late reply to this.. It's been hectic here at home.. With it being the weekend and having two kids to look after, you know yourself it can be a handful...!!!

Hi BM,

Thanks for replying, kids can be a handful and demand our constant attention, I'm glad you were able to do some research on the matter though.

Quote

I thought there would be documents that are not released.. Like from the Vatican itself?

There are documents that are not available, but contrary to popular opinion and speculation, they are not a secret archive. Scholars can gain access to them. They just have to be academically credentialled scholars, these documents are not available to the general public because of their frailty. They have to be handled very carfully, not thumbed through like a magazine.

But even those documents have titles, and we know about them, even if we don't have direct access to them. The Vatican Library and archives have a web page that list the books, we just have to know what we are looking for beforehand. There isn't a section called "conspiracies".

Quote

Anyway.. back to the important part of our discussion...  I took some time late last night  ( when kids eventually went to sleep )  to look up and see if I can research info that would help us out, as I noticed you have been working on it too, I also checked out your links in your previous post

I first clicked on the links you gave me... I too found some links to ( what I hope ) could be most helpful..

I'll take you through what I have been doing...

I first looked up the site .. I found what you would call the conspiracy site from an Australian author who goes by the name of - Tony Bushby ..

Info on this Australian Author...

Tony Bushby was born in Australia and has written seven books, all of which are regarded as classics in their genre. Tony’s books have received worldwide acclaim and some are curricular reading in American universities and Enlightenment centers. Early in his life, he qualified as an Architectural Draughtsman, and later established a structural design business. He then developed his own publishing business and spent 20 years writing and publishing colour magazines for the Australian and New Zealand markets.Some of his titles were;
Relieving Arthritis; The Renovators Guidebook; 100 Home Plans and What They Cost to Build; The Immigrants Guide to Australia
,some motoring magazines, and various other topics. He writes for articles for international magazines, some recent topics being,
‘Ancient Cities Under the Sands of Giza’, ‘Celestial Prophecies and the Great Pyramid’, ‘Zoomorphic Beings and the Missing Link’, ‘The Forged Origins of Christianity,’ ‘Shambhala, Valley of the Immortals,’and‘The Pedophile Pope; the truth about Pope John Paul II’.
Tony is held in high regard for his book and documentary articles on Near-death Experiences, and has personally interviewed over 600 people who have glimpsed the Afterlife. While living in Cairo, he had access to ancient papyri in the Rare Manuscripts Room in Egypt’s Alexandrian Library and was privileged to explore subterranean temples under the sands of Giza not open to the public. Tony is constantly seeking new evidence about the Truth of the past, and incessantly gathers together provocative information that challenges the basis of our core beliefs. In general, he has developed a specialism in a non-orthodox approach to Christianity and Egyptology, and adopts the attitude that ‘regardless of how many people may be disturbed,there are no religions superior to the historic Truth

http://www.scribd.co...rd-Edition-2011

It turns out this guy cannot be contacted.It tells you that he keeps his life private, so I imagine it would be hard to contact him.... I was hoping I could at least find an email for him,asking him to help me out with the letters and how to get a hold of the book if any  etc ?

Before posting here, I did some research on him myself. Specifically, the book that mentions the Leo X quote is called "The Bible Fraud:An Untold Story of Jesus Christ".

1st of all, he is not a scholar, by trade he is an Architectural Draughtsman, as you said above. We don't know of any academic degrees he might have besides thqat one. But if he did have any they would be prominently listed, don't you think? I sincerely doubt he got access to any Vatican documents at all.

Let me show you something I found earlier on in regards to one of the books he sources, because his book is actually the original source for all the sites on the subject.

In regard to that non-existent book I mentioned earlier: Letters and Comments on Pope Leo X” by A.L. Collins, (1842 reprint, London)

The claim on the Web is that it is attested to by Leo’s secretary, the renowned classicist Bembo, and that it is to be found in “Cardinal Bembo: Letters and Comments on Pope Leo X” by A.L. Collins, (1842 reprint, London) – though most just say “Cardinal Bembo’s ‘Letters and Comments on Pope Leo X’”. The problem is finding it. First of all, note the date, and note the incomplete citation: no page number or chapter reference, and just who the heck is A.L. Collins?

From the look of it, it seems the book, if it exists at all, is written by this A.L. Collins, and the book itself is a collection of letters and purported statements from Bembo: for all we know Collins’ source on the anecdote was John Bale via Taylor and/or Wheless. What we do know is that Bembo never mentions the incident in any of his known works or extant private letters, including Epistolarum Leonis X pontificis Max. nomine Scriptarum libri sexdecim (1552). Neither is it mentioned in either Greswell’s 1801 Memoirs of Angelo Poliziano, Jacopo Sannazaro, Pietro Bembo, Girolamo Fracastoro, Marco Antonio Flaminio, Girolamo Amalteo, Cornelio Amalteo: A Translation from Their Poetical Works, or in Die leonischen Briefe des Petrus Bembus, an 1893 dissertation by Fritz Sydow.

Source: http://www.answerbag.../q_view/2247033

The above is one of the reasons why I'm so confident that the whole thing is a sham. I personally checked for myself the different works cited and can confirm that they DO NOT state anything at all on the subject. It isn't mentioned once, even in passing.

Another interesting aspect from the same source goes even further than I did...

As for Baronius’ 12-volume history of the Church, known as Annales Ecclesiastici, well … Bushby and his many regurgitators claim that Baronius records:

"The Pontiff has been accused of atheism, for he denied God and called Christ, in front of cardinals Pietro Bembo, Jovius and Iacopo Sadoleto and other intimates, 'a fable' … it must be corrected". (Annales Ecclesiastici, op. cit., tomes viii and xi)

The curious thing is that the Annales Ecclesiastici is a chronological history of the Church, and Tome viii covers the years 449–499, and Tome xi covers the years 600–679. How could Baronius, as “the preeminent Catholic historian” (according to Bushby) possibly mention Leo X (b. 1475–d. 1521) in those pre-medieval tomes? It is not until Tome xxxi, hundreds of pages later, that Baronius covers the years 1513-1526, when the statement was purportedly made. Key-word searches (for the Latin words for Fable, and the names of Bembo, Jovius, and Sadoleto) of the entire 12 volume work finds nothing of this statement. The pages in Tome xxxi concerning Leo X say nothing of the kind.


Some sites do give a citation, which looks like this: (Encyc. Brit., 14th Ed. Xix, pg. 217). However, if you actually pick up a 14th Ed. Of Britannica (printed from 1929-1973) you’ll see it does not contain the article on Leo X (which is actually in Vol. 13. Vol. 19) but an article on Respiration with nice pictures of a pigeon's lungs and a goat's branchiole, but no Leo.

The actual Leo article from pp. 926-7 of Vol. 13 says a lot about Leo's lackadaisical attitude towards spending, but has no mention of the "fable" quote either way. An exhaustive search of Vol. 19 does actually find a version of the “quote” on page 127 in the article on the Renaissance, which was authored by John Addington Symonds, who merely quotes it in passing as an oft repeated "witty epigram" popularly attributed to Leo X. He does not give any source for the quote.

Quote

I then moved on to reading his work ...
The Criminal History of the Papacy - Part 3 - by Tony Bushby - Extracted from Nexus Magazine, Volume 14, Number 3 That mentions the letters and Pope Leo's proclamation and so on

Seen on this site - http://loveforlife.c...volume-14-numbe

Yes BM, the site is specifically quoting from Busbys' book, "The Bible Fraud:An Untold Story of Jesus Christ". Properly put they are quoting parts of his book printed in a Magazine called Nexus, which prints alot of stuff of this nature.

For a clearer understanding of the books content, please review the following link...

Source: http://thedevineevid...ible_fraud.html

It is a christian site, but it also clearly explains chapter by chapter what the book is about.

Quote

I later researched some more  I wanted to look at Annales Ecclesiastici, Caesar Baronius, Folio Antwerp, 1597, tome 14) and so I found this archive -  http://archive.org/s...are, 1538-1607"
I then clicked on the archive link and  it looked like this....

Author:Baronio, Cesare, 1538-1607; Raynaldus, Odorico, 1595-1671; Laderchii, James, 1678-1738; Theiner, Augustin, 1804-1874
Volume:14
Subject:Catholic Church; Church history
Publisher:Barri-Ducis : Guerin
Possible copyright status:NOT_IN_COPYRIGHT
Language:Latin
Call number:AMW-4930
Digitizing sponsor:University of Toronto
Book contributor:Robarts - University of Toronto
Collection:robarts; toronto
Notes:No TOC
Scanfactors:21

Full catalog record:MARCXML

Posted ImageThis book has an editable web page on Open Library.

But I don't know how to use it well because this is the first time I have ever attempted anything like this before.. I hope you understand..Maybe you would be better with it than I



I have already been through the book in question, earlier on in our discussion I gave a link to it (exactly the same link by the way:)).http://archive.org/d...ecclesias14baro

It's got the word Fabula 7 times, none of which refere to the Leo X quote directly or indirectly.

There is n't much more to say on that subject.

Quote

After that I went on researching more, along with looking up the Latin word for letters, which happens to be - EPISTOLAE  (  Meaning collection of letters  )  and looked up info on the letters written by Pietro Bembo .. And later, I came across what I think could be them .. Go here - https://play.google....l=en&pg=GBS.PP5 ... But now I am stuck and I don't know how to search it well..

I thought if I showed it to you, that you may have a better idea than I ?... Here is the site from where I found the book of letters -> http://books.google....id=Av87AAAAcAAJ

I followed the link you gave me above. On the top right hand side of the page you will find a magnifying glass icon, that is the search function. Click it and type any of the keywords I've already given you. Personally I found nothing there.

Quote

It occurred to me that maybe the texts were written in OLD LATIN and not modern Latin? ( Please note, I said maybe the texts are in old Latin, it is just a hunch ) .. So I tried to see if I could get my hands on  a translator, that can translate from English to old Latin?  
I found one, but they ask for money.. so sod that  lol ..  Can you see if maybe you can find something that can translate English to old Latin?

The text are not in Old Latin. Old Latin (also called Early Latin or Archaic Latin) refers to the Latin language in the period before the age of Classical Latin; that is, all Latin before 75 BC. New Latin refers to all original works created between 1500 and 1900 C.E.

The works we are researching are all in New Latin and the online translators work well enough here. One of the things I noticed though is that Bembo used f as an s, so words like hiftoriam are actually historiam (history) and a phrase like "cuiusque nome senserit his literis" translated to "each name had thought of these letters" was actually written like this "cuiufque nome fenferit his literis".

It can be a little confusing but one gets around it easily enough.

Either way, I am satisfied with what I have found so far on this issue. If a text does come my way that actually has an eyewitness account that can be verified, I'll accept that he said it. At this time, it can't be demonstrated except by falsifying data.

Edited by Jor-el, 06 January 2013 - 08:56 PM.

Posted Image


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