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[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood


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#9496    Abramelin

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 10:11 PM

View PostOtharus, on 17 January 2012 - 10:08 PM, said:

Found in Friesland is not the same as Frisian.

No, it was probably written in Chinese.

"Sambal bij?"


#9497    The Puzzler

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 12:02 AM

View PostKnul, on 17 January 2012 - 08:21 PM, said:

I have pointed out many times that OLB words and expressions are simply pseudo Oldfrisian calques of modern mid-19th century Dutch words and expressions, occasionally modern English (like bedrum-bedroom) and modern Frisian (like tobek = terug) and that the word order in the OLB is completely the Dutch word order (e.g. nei min ynfalda myning - naar mijn eenvoudige mening). I have also said, that the juulscript transcription contains many errors (like svnvm instaed of svna, ending -on instead of -en) and that the transcription of Ottema again contains many errors (see scan) and misinterpretations like hyrtogum instead of hertogum). To say, that Dutch and English have traces of the OLB is the world upside down, like saying that Latin and Greek have traces from modern Dutch.

JesterdÍi wÍron-er mong  (5) jo tham allet folk to h‚pa hropa wilde [p. 8] vmb tha ‚stlike st‚ta wither to hjara plyga to tvangande.  The tekst reads: to hare wopa. Hare should be hjara I would translate: tot hun wapenen, te wapen
I guess that is only if you are convinced it's a mid 19th century composition.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#9498    The Puzzler

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 07:12 AM

View PostKnul, on 17 January 2012 - 08:21 PM, said:

I have pointed out many times that OLB words and expressions are simply pseudo Oldfrisian calques of modern mid-19th century Dutch words and expressions, occasionally modern English (like bedrum-bedroom) and modern Frisian (like tobek = terug) and that the word order in the OLB is completely the Dutch word order (e.g. nei min ynfalda myning - naar mijn eenvoudige mening). I have also said, that the juulscript transcription contains many errors (like svnvm instaed of svna, ending -on instead of -en) and that the transcription of Ottema again contains many errors (see scan) and misinterpretations like hyrtogum instead of hertogum). To say, that Dutch and English have traces of the OLB is the world upside down, like saying that Latin and Greek have traces from modern Dutch.

JesterdÍi wÍron-er mong  (5) jo tham allet folk to h‚pa hropa wilde [p. 8] vmb tha ‚stlike st‚ta wither to hjara plyga to tvangande.  The tekst reads: to hare wopa. Hare should be hjara I would translate: tot hun wapenen, te wapen
About son and sunu/sunum/svnvm...

  u-stems
          Masc.                       Fem.
                        Sg.
N  sunu (son)feld (field)  duru (door) hand (hand)
G  suna         felda          dura           handa
D  suna         felda          dura           handa
A  sunu         feld            duru           hand
                        Pl.
N  suna         felda          dura           handa
G  suna         felda          dura           handa
D  sunum      feldum       durum         handum
A  suna         felda          dura           handa


Also:

Here it is seen clearly how Old English lost its final -s in endings: Gothic had sunus and handus, while Old English has already sunu and hand respectively. Interesting that dropping final consonants is also a general trend of almost all Indo-European languages. Ancient tongues still keep them everywhere - Greek, Latin, Gothic, Old Prussian, Sanskrit, Old Irish; but later, no matter where a language is situated and what processes it undergoes, final consonants (namely -s, -t, often -m, -n) disappear, remaining nowadays only in the two Baltic languages and in New Greek
http://babaev.tripod.../grammar41.html


In an mmm bop it's gone...

#9499    Otharus

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 07:38 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 17 January 2012 - 10:11 PM, said:

No, it was probably written in Chinese.
If you want to be a skeptic, you should not just believe want you want to believe.

In the Netherlands objects with texts in Latin from the time of the Roman occupation were also found.

That does not mean that Latin was the main language spoken by the people in the time those objects were made.


#9500    Otharus

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 09:46 AM

View PostKnul, on 17 January 2012 - 08:21 PM, said:

Jesterdêi wêron-er mong jo tham allet folk to hâpa hropa wilde vmb tha âstlike stâta wither to hjara plyga to tvangande.  

The tekst reads: to hare wopa.

Hare should be hjara

I would translate: tot hun wapenen, te wapen
In the transliteration by Ottema that you quoted, WOPA indeed was changed into HROPA. Ottema must have assumed a copyist error.
He was wrong. Hettema's dictionary has:

Wopa, woapje, alarm roepen, geschreeuw maken, noodschreijen. W.130.
English: call/ cry alarm

It is not clear if the word before WOPA is spelled HÁPE or HÁRE, but it must be HÁPE as that word is more often used (also as HÁPA) in a similar context.

First, the fragment under discussion, with various translations, then other relevant fragments to compare.

[003/20]
JESTERDÉI WÉRON.ER MONG JO THAM ALLET FOLK TO HÁPE WOPA WILDE VMB THA ÁSTLIKA STÁTA WITHER TO HJARA PLYGA TO TVANGANDE.
Yesterday there were among you that wanted to 'call all people to heaps' (gather and prepare them for battle), to force the eastern states (back) to their (old) habits.

[Ottema p.8]
Gisteren waren er onder u, die al het volk te hoop roepen wilden om de oostelijke Staten weder tot hare plicht te dwingen.

[Jensma p.77]
Gisteren waren er onder u, die al het volk te hoop wilden roepen om de oostelijke staten weer tot hun gewoonten te dwingen.

[Sandbach p.8]
Yesterday there were among you those who would have called the whole people together, to compel the eastern states to return to their duty.

- - - - - -

Other fragments with the word HÁPA/ HÁPE in a similar context:

[037/26]
NV SKOLDE ÀJDER WÁNA THÀT HJA VRAL.ET FOLK TO HÁPE HWOPN* HÉDE VMBE VS ALGADUR TO.T.LAND UT TO DRIWANDE.
(* a letter, probably E is added between O and P, but should more likely have been placed between P and N)

[Ottema p.55 (Jensma has similar translation)]
Nu zoude ieder wanen dat zij overal het volk te hoop geroepen hadden, om ons allen te zamen het land uit te drijven.

[Sandbach p.55]
one would have thought that they would have called all the people together to drive us out of the land

[066/11]
THA STRÁMADA THÀT OR.A SKELDA FOLK TO HÁPA.
Then the 'Ora Skelda' (Over de Scheldt) people 'streamed to heaps' (prepared for battle).

[Ottema p.93]
Toen stroomde het andere Schelda volk te hoop.

[Jensma p.203]
Toen stroomde het Over de Schelde-volk te hoop.

[Sandbach p.93]
Then the other Schelda people poured out towards her.

[195/22]
MEN NW HLIP ALLET ÔRA FOLK TO HÁPE ÀND THA RIKA WÉRON BLÍDE THAT HJA HÉL HÚDIS FON THÉRE ACHT OF KÉMON.
but now all other people revolted and the rich were glad... (etc.)

[Ottema p.235 (Jensma has similar translation)]
maar nu liep al het andere volk te hoop, en de rijken waren blijde dat zij heelhuids van de vergadering afkwamen.

[Sandbach p.235]
so all the people rose up, and the rich were glad to get out of the assembly with whole skins.

- - - - - -

The Dutch expression "te hoop lopen" means: "in opstand komen" (source: http://nl.wikiquote....talige_gezegden ); to revolt.
(In the time of the VOC (Dutch United East India Company), the term "hooploper" was used for young sailor's assistants (lichtmatroos).)

Conclusion:
I don't agree that the word is HARE and should be HJARA. It is HÁPE.
WOPA is a known Oldfrisian word.

Edited by Otharus, 18 January 2012 - 09:49 AM.


#9501    Otharus

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 10:35 AM

View PostKnul, on 17 January 2012 - 08:21 PM, said:

OLB words and expressions are simply pseudo Oldfrisian calques of modern mid-19th century Dutch words and expressions, occasionally modern English (like bedrum-bedroom) and modern Frisian (like tobek = terug)
It's not that obvious at all. We don't know how old those words are. BED (the root) and RUM are both known Oldfrisian words. We don't know if BEDRUM means the same as our bedroom. It can also mean praying- or offering-room (from: beden = bidden, bieden).

Quote

the word order in the OLB is completely the Dutch word order (e.g. nei min ynfalda myning - naar mijn eenvoudige mening).

Not only the Dutch word-order, but also the Frisian word-order. If word-order does not change much in a 1000 years, why would it have changed so much in 2000 years or more?

Quote

the juulscript transcription contains many errors (like svnvm instaed of svna, ending -on instead of -en)

We don't know if these are errors, but if they were, what would this prove?

Edited by Otharus, 18 January 2012 - 11:20 AM.


#9502    Abramelin

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 10:38 AM

View PostOtharus, on 18 January 2012 - 07:38 AM, said:

If you want to be a skeptic, you should not just believe want you want to believe.

In the Netherlands objects with texts in Latin from the time of the Roman occupation were also found.

That does not mean that Latin was the main language spoken by the people in the time those objects were made.

Yes, and we know those texts were written in Roman Latin, like we know those other texts were written in an old Germanic language, and a couple of times they were found in the heartland of the Frisians. These Germanic people were closely related to the Frisians (the Frisians were a Germanic people, btw), and so their language must have been close to Old Frisian.


#9503    Otharus

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 10:41 AM

View PostKnul, on 17 January 2012 - 08:21 PM, said:

modern Frisian (like tobek = terug)
TO and BEK are both known Oldfrisian words, that can easily have been used in this combination.

See Richthofen's dictionary.


#9504    Abramelin

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 11:32 AM

Something about Frisian Runes or runes found in The Netherlands:

Approaches to Old Frisian philology - Rolf Hendrik Bremmer,Thomas S. B. Johnston,Oebele Vries

http://books.google....n runes&f=false

===


IX. RUNIC INSCRIPTIONS IN OR FROM THE NETHERLANDS

In general it can be said that ‘Runic Frisian’ cannot be analysed very well with the help of
existing grammars and descriptions of Old Frisian, such as have been published by Steller,
Markey and Ramat, since they merely describe ‘Manuscript Old Frisian’ of much later
centuries. Reconstructing Runic Frisian is therefore a laborious task. Old English, which has
been recorded from much earlier onwards is an indispensable help for the analysis of Runic
Frisian, as is Old Saxon, and, to a lesser degree, Old High German
.

http://dissertations...ooijenga/c9.pdf

From the same pdf:


13. Westeremden B (Groningen), small yew-wooden stick, found in 1917.
ophæmu givëda æmluþ:iwi ok upduna (a)le wimôv æh þusë

My transliteration runs thus:
op hæmu jibada æmluþ : iwi ok up duna (a)le wimoed æh þusa
.


Now THIS is really interesting:

From page 196:

makija: Vimose II < asm. ‘sword'

Vimose II: mariha aala makija 85


==

I once said that the OLB "Lumka-makia" was no other place but Lemmer, a place in southern Friesland at the coast of the IJsselmeer, and that it may have had to do with whaling. Weird, but "kamakia" is Greek for harpoon...

Now according to this pdf, "makija" (which I think should have been written as ""makia" because someone (Dutch) forgot s/he was writing a text in English) appears to mean "sword".

++++

More about those runes, and about "makija" :

Texts & contexts of the oldest Runic inscriptions - Tineke Looijenga

http://books.google....a sword&f=false

.

Edited by Abramelin, 18 January 2012 - 11:38 AM.


#9505    Otharus

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 11:51 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 18 January 2012 - 11:32 AM, said:

In general it can be said that ‘Runic Frisian’ cannot be analysed very well with the help of existing grammars and descriptions of Old Frisian [...] since they merely describe ‘Manuscript Old Frisian’ of much later centuries..
By all means interesting, those runes and their language, but I think it is a mistake to call them 'runic Frisian', and to assume that this language would be the main ancestor of the Oldfrisian from the medieval sources.

The find of "makia" = sword is very interesting indeed.

Edited by Otharus, 18 January 2012 - 11:53 AM.


#9506    Abramelin

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 12:00 PM

View PostOtharus, on 18 January 2012 - 11:51 AM, said:

By all means interesting, those runes and their language, but I think it is a mistake to call them 'runic Frisian', and to assume that this language would be the main ancestor of the Oldfrisian from the medieval sources.

The find of "makia" = sword is very interesting indeed.

Those runes are from around the period Liko & Hiddo wrote their texts in the OLB, so one should expect both languages would look very similar.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 18 January 2012 - 12:01 PM.


#9507    Abramelin

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 12:21 PM

We have a South African connection with the OLB:

Everytime I google "Lumka" (part of the OLB "Lumka-makia") I end up with a Xhosa person from South Africa, lol.

I remember I posted about a Frisian girls/boys name 'Lumka" and other variations.

It could also be that this "Lumka" I keep finding is a first name in Afrikaans... and maybe originally a really old Dutch or old Frisian first name... or object.

Hey Alewyn, where are you?

Btw: in my post about the runes (the post with the links and quotes) a really ancient first name shows up: Alawin

alawin: Skodborghus-B = PN? voc./nsm.

IX. RUNIC INSCRIPTIONS IN OR FROM THE NETHERLANDS
Page 197, http://dissertations...ooijenga/c9.pdf

.

Edited by Abramelin, 18 January 2012 - 12:28 PM.


#9508    Otharus

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 12:37 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 18 January 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

Those runes are from around the period Liko & Hiddo wrote their texts in the OLB, so one should expect both languages would look very similar.
Why? You think all people who lived in that region spoke and wrote the same (and only one) language?


#9509    Abramelin

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 12:53 PM

View PostOtharus, on 18 January 2012 - 12:37 PM, said:

Why? You think all people who lived in that region spoke and wrote the same (and only one) language?

If you read the pdf and the books I linked to, you'll see that those runic inscriptions came from other parts of the Netherlands as well, but all within the Magna Frisia territory.

Of course one or two could be written in something other than ancient Frisian, but none of them resemble the OLB language.

And like I already said: the languages spoken in that area were closely related.

_______________

The "lumka" part of the OLB "Lumka-makia" may have been a borrowing from Latin:

LUMEN:

Latin

Pronunciation(Classical) IPA: /ˈluː.men/

Etymology
From Proto-Indo-European *lewk-s-men, which is derived from Proto-Indo-European *lewk-.[1] Cognate to Latin lūx.

Noun
lūmen (genitive lūminis); n, third declension

1.light
2.(poetic) the eyes
3.(poetic) daylight
4.(poetic) brightness
5.(poetic) the light of life

http://en.wiktionary...i/lumen#English

==

Descendants

with e-grade:

Ancient Greek λευκός (leukós) from *lewk-os
Latin: lūmen from *léwk-s-mn̥
Latin: lūna from *léwk-s-neh₂
Latin: lucubro from *lewk-o-dʰro-
Proto-Germanic: *leuhtaz, *leuhtą from *lewk-tó-s
Proto-Germanic: *leuhsaz, *leuhsą from *léwk-so-s
Proto-Germanic: *leuhmô from *léwk-mn̥


with o-grade:

from *lówk-os:
Latin: lūcus
Lithuanian: laũkas “field, open space”
Proto-Germanic: *lauhaz
Sanskrit: ... (lōkaḥ) “free space”
Old Church Slavonic: лоуча, лѹча (luča) 'ray' from *lowk-yā


with zero-grade:

Ancient Greek λύχνος (lúkhnos) from *luk-s-nos


http://en.wiktionary...-European/lewk-



So, if this is indeed the case, what could "Lumka-makia" mean?

"Shining sword"??

.

Edited by Abramelin, 18 January 2012 - 12:56 PM.


#9510    The Puzzler

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 02:29 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 18 January 2012 - 11:32 AM, said:

Something about Frisian Runes or runes found in The Netherlands:

Approaches to Old Frisian philology - Rolf Hendrik Bremmer,Thomas S. B. Johnston,Oebele Vries

http://books.google....n runes&f=false

===


IX. RUNIC INSCRIPTIONS IN OR FROM THE NETHERLANDS

In general it can be said that ‘Runic Frisian’ cannot be analysed very well with the help of
existing grammars and descriptions of Old Frisian, such as have been published by Steller,
Markey and Ramat, since they merely describe ‘Manuscript Old Frisian’ of much later
centuries. Reconstructing Runic Frisian is therefore a laborious task. Old English, which has
been recorded from much earlier onwards is an indispensable help for the analysis of Runic
Frisian, as is Old Saxon, and, to a lesser degree, Old High German
.

http://dissertations...ooijenga/c9.pdf

From the same pdf:


13. Westeremden B (Groningen), small yew-wooden stick, found in 1917.
ophæmu givëda æmluþ:iwi ok upduna (a)le wimôv æh þusë

My transliteration runs thus:
op hæmu jibada æmluþ : iwi ok up duna (a)le wimoed æh þusa
.


Now THIS is really interesting:

From page 196:

makija: Vimose II < asm. ‘sword'

Vimose II: mariha aala makija 85


==

I once said that the OLB "Lumka-makia" was no other place but Lemmer, a place in southern Friesland at the coast of the IJsselmeer, and that it may have had to do with whaling. Weird, but "kamakia" is Greek for harpoon...

Now according to this pdf, "makija" (which I think should have been written as ""makia" because someone (Dutch) forgot s/he was writing a text in English) appears to mean "sword".

++++

More about those runes, and about "makija" :

Texts & contexts of the oldest Runic inscriptions - Tineke Looijenga

http://books.google....a sword&f=false

.

Danish[edit] EtymologyFrom Old Danish ljunken, from Old Norse *ljumka, *lumka ("to warm"), from Proto-Germanic *hlēwanōnan (“to make warm”), *hleumaz, *hlūmaz (“warm”), from Proto-Indo-European *ḱal(w)e-, *ḱel(w)e-, *k(')lēw- (“warm, hot”). Cognate with Old Swedish lionkin (“lukewarm”), Old Swedish liumber (“warm, mild, tepid”), Swedish dialectal lumma (“to be hot”), Old Saxon halōian (“to burn”). See lukewarm
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lunken

mak-ia 70 und häufiger?, mek-k-ia, mait-ia, meit-ia, afries., sw. V. (2): nhd.
machen, reparieren, bauen, festsetzen, gerichtlich entscheiden, freisprechen,
verurteilen, beschuldigen, verklagen, erklären, erweisen, unter etwas bringen,
pfänden; ne. make (V.), repair (V.), build (V.), decide, accuse (V.), declare; Vw.:
s. for-, *lÆk-, ðt-, wi-ther-; Hw.: s. mek; vgl. ae. macian, anfrk. makon, as. makon*,
ahd. mahhæn; Q.: R, B, E, H, W, F, S; E.: germ. *makæn, sw. V., machen, kneten;
idg. *ma-, V., kneten, drücken, streichen, machen, Pokorny 696; W.: nfries.
maaikjen, V., machen; L.: Hh 68b, Rh 914b


warm - make = maybe a fire works of some kind..? iron works, heating of some kind. Hot spa pools, I dunno but it will relate to these words imo.

The place might not even be there now, it should be in East Flyland.

Shining sword... :w00t:

Edited by The Puzzler, 18 January 2012 - 02:31 PM.

In an mmm bop it's gone...