120 replies to this topic

[the L]

I doubt that Slavs tried to equate their deities with those of India.

Perun and Brahma -Four faced Gods.

[the L]

Indra which is now worshiped by Hinduists. Its in fact Perun, Thor, Zeus. Also Varuna water god is worshiped by IE. IE also believed in Zoroastrianisms/Budhists/Vedic  Mithra.

Wheres Anatolia there?

[cormac mac airt]

the L, on 28 November 2012 - 11:03 PM, said:

Indra which is now worshiped by Hinduists. Its in fact Perun, Thor, Zeus. Also Varuna water god is worshiped by IE. IE also believed in Zoroastrianisms/Budhists/Vedic  Mithra.

Wheres Anatolia there?

You're reading more into these various gods than is evidenced. Yes, there are going to be similarities. Humans throughout time were experiencing much the same things in nature and were developing explanations for same. But you're also mangling timeframes for these deities in order to imply a connection that doesn't exist. Again, similarites don't equate to a connection.

cormac

[the L]

Indra Thor Perun and Zeus are same Gods but different names. You are wrong. There are connections.

Anyway how come that people in Anatolia didnt throughout time experienced much the same things in nature and developed explanations for same such as people in India and Europe?

[cormac mac airt]

the L, on 28 November 2012 - 11:26 PM, said:

Indra Thor Perun and Zeus are same Gods but different names. You are wrong. There are connections.

Anyway how come that people in Anatolia didnt throughout time experienced much the same things in nature and developed explanations for same such as people in India and Europe?

Claiming they're the same gods doesn't make them the same gods.

They did, but they were a more localized peoples whose religious beliefs weren't distributed over a much larger area such as those of the Greeks, Scandinavians or Indians.

cormac

[the L]

Cormie what do you think about those people with R1a1a Haplogroup in circle which I add?

[Harsh86_Patel]

me-wonders, on 27 November 2012 - 05:02 PM, said:

You are sounding like a record stuck in a grove. I have a child to watch and have to sign out, but here is an explanation of genetics and the caste system that might meet your standards? At least everyone else can see there is disagreement with the position you have taken. http://genome.cshlp....t/11/6/994.full

Methinks i thinks that you got the whole migration concept in reverse.Modern and upto date facts are supporting the converse of the theory you put forward,i.e Out of India Theory,you might like to check it out.

[cormac mac airt]

the L, on 29 November 2012 - 05:14 AM, said:

Cormie what do you think about those people with R1a1a Haplogroup in circle which I add?

What about it? It's located in Upper Mesopotamia and nowhere near the area relevant to the Kurgan Hypothesis you keep going on about. Nor, as seen by its shade, is it an origin point for either European or Indian R1a1a. At best it's a migrational remnant.

cormac

[the L]

Could it be Mitanni?

In 2300 BC Hurrian kingdom was on north of Akkadian empire. West of Elam. After Hittites push Babylon/Amorites to the end people in north gather under one ruler. Those Hurrian people which had have isolated language were overhelmed by Indo Aryan ruling class-Mitanni or  "nhrn" /Naharin as Egyptians called them. Hurrian people spoke Hurro Urartian language not semitic or IE. Mitanni ruled from 1500 – 1300 BC. 200 years which is a lot and suddenly disappear due Hittites and as dot on i was Assyrian conquest. When Mitanni were on their zenith they border with Hittites in west,with Assyrians in east and with Egyptians in south. Beyond Assyrian land on east were Guttians. One more people which disappear from history similar to Mitannies. Their capital Waššukanni we still didnt found we only suggests thats near Khabur river. Waššukanni was first destroyed by Hittites under Suppiluliumas I then came all mighty Assyrians.  First Mitanni were competing with Egyptians but soon they realize that they both share same enemies - Hittites. Its interesting that they worship Indo European Gods such as Indra which is now worshiped by Hinduists. Its in fact Perun, Thor, Zeus. Also Varuna water god. They also believed in Zoroastrianisms/Budhists/Vedic  Mithra. Mitanni were powerfull people during those 200 years. They conquered Canaanites and beat Egyptians around todays Syria. Later they allied with Egyptians and Mitanni King Shuttarna daughter Gilu Hepa was married to Pharaoh Amenhotep III.But when Shuttarna died Egypt change politic. Hittites and Assyrians become stronger. Mitanni have bad luck that they libed in time of Suppiluliuma I and Assyrians. They were in sandwich. Then first Hittites take their capital and then came first real conquerers in history-Assyrians.  Hittites didnt last much longer from 1650 to 1209 BC due combination of factors but their decline was pushed foward by Assyrians too. Which in the end conquer Canaanites, Hebrews and Egyptians. Assyrians simply conquered all.





Its clear how Mitanni fell but no one knows how they rise. From where did they come? Was it invasion? So its around time when Aryans came. Maybe those two events are connected.

[cormac mac airt]

the L, on 29 November 2012 - 12:18 PM, said:

Could it be Mitanni?

In 2300 BC Hurrian kingdom was on north of Akkadian empire. West of Elam. After Hittites push Babylon/Amorites to the end people in north gather under one ruler. Those Hurrian people which had have isolated language were overhelmed by Indo Aryan ruling class-Mitanni or  "nhrn" /Naharin as Egyptians called them. Hurrian people spoke Hurro Urartian language not semitic or IE. Mitanni ruled from 1500 – 1300 BC. 200 years which is a lot and suddenly disappear due Hittites and as dot on i was Assyrian conquest. When Mitanni were on their zenith they border with Hittites in west,with Assyrians in east and with Egyptians in south. Beyond Assyrian land on east were Guttians. One more people which disappear from history similar to Mitannies. Their capital Waššukanni we still didnt found we only suggests thats near Khabur river. Waššukanni was first destroyed by Hittites under Suppiluliumas I then came all mighty Assyrians.  First Mitanni were competing with Egyptians but soon they realize that they both share same enemies - Hittites. Its interesting that they worship Indo European Gods such as Indra which is now worshiped by Hinduists. Its in fact Perun, Thor, Zeus. Also Varuna water god. They also believed in Zoroastrianisms/Budhists/Vedic  Mithra. Mitanni were powerfull people during those 200 years. They conquered Canaanites and beat Egyptians around todays Syria. Later they allied with Egyptians and Mitanni King Shuttarna daughter Gilu Hepa was married to Pharaoh Amenhotep III.But when Shuttarna died Egypt change politic. Hittites and Assyrians become stronger. Mitanni have bad luck that they libed in time of Suppiluliuma I and Assyrians. They were in sandwich. Then first Hittites take their capital and then came first real conquerers in history-Assyrians.  Hittites didnt last much longer from 1650 to 1209 BC due combination of factors but their decline was pushed foward by Assyrians too. Which in the end conquer Canaanites, Hebrews and Egyptians. Assyrians simply conquered all.



~SNIP~

It would be the right general area, but again that wouldn't make it an origin point.

cormac

[the L]

cormac mac airt, on 29 November 2012 - 08:10 PM, said:

It would be the right general area, but again that wouldn't make it an origin point.

cormac

Mitanni were IE people. So I thought why not? Around them were mostly semitic people.

Cormac, what do you think from where Hittites came in Anatolia?

[me-wonders]

the L, on 28 November 2012 - 11:03 PM, said:

Indra which is now worshiped by Hinduists. Its in fact Perun, Thor, Zeus. Also Varuna water god is worshiped by IE. IE also believed in Zoroastrianisms/Budhists/Vedic  Mithra.

Wheres Anatolia there?

Jung would explain this as sharing symbolism.   It seems to occur even when there is no connect between cultures.  For sure many cultures assigned an importance to the north, east, south and west.   I disagree with Cormac's opinion that you read too much into similarities.  There is a benefit to seeing similarities.  And why shouldn't there be similarities?  We share the human experience.  However, there are climate differences that effect survival needs and therefore, our understanding of life and especially something as important as our understanding of the Creator and what is required of us.   H. G. Wells  defines this as a difference between the hunters of the north and the farmers of the south, and how these different cultures have interacted throughout history.

This link says India was first settled by herders who migrated to India and later the Aryans who were also herders arrived.  The Harappan are credited with the first indoor plumbing, and grid streets, and the Aryans are credited with writing and the religion.

Quote

India's Harappan and Aryan Ancient Civilizations | Suite101

suite101.com/.../indias-harappan-and-aryan-ancient-civilizations-a21...
Mar 26, 2010 – India's Harappan and Aryan Ancient Civilizations. The history of India began as nomadic herders settled in the Indus River Valley between ...

I had to look up Perun and wonder if anyone is interested in comparing the gods?  That Perun is represented by oak trees really gets my attention because oaks were also sacred to Celts.  Every time I get into ancient history, I am blown away by what appears to much more traveling and contact between groups of people than expected.  Is it just me, or do others find all this traveling and contact and similarity of gods interesting?   http://www.britannic.../453296/Perun   Should we open a thread for comparing the gods?

Edited by me-wonders, 30 November 2012 - 05:03 PM.

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

the L, on 28 November 2012 - 11:03 PM, said:

Indra which is now worshiped by Hinduists. Its in fact Perun, Thor, Zeus. Also Varuna water god is worshiped by IE. IE also believed in Zoroastrianisms/Budhists/Vedic  Mithra

Yet, Perun, in all Slavic languages has a major difference from other similar souding names of "thunder god". It is the omission in Slavic of "K" in the word, unlike Baltic Perkunas, Perkons and the Indian version Parjanya. The "K" and Indian equivalent come from the root of "oak", and to include this in the name Perun would have been very taboo. I think it shows a link between some IE languages about the same thunder god, but I think that Perun has a different origin and is purely Slavic.

[me-wonders]

Harsh86_Patel, on 29 November 2012 - 06:12 AM, said:

Methinks i thinks that you got the whole migration concept in reverse.Modern and up to date facts are supporting the converse of the theory you put forward,i.e Out of India Theory,you might like to check it out.

I think I mentioned this possibility and my regrets for not remembering where I picked up this information.  Perhaps because of how this thread shaped my searching, it keeps coming up that the Aryans are responsible for the religion.   I must say, this conflicting information and not being able to find all of it is frustrating.  It is also nice to have more people posting.   Do you have a link for the theory that things from from India?

[me-wonders]

cormac mac airt, on 28 November 2012 - 10:59 PM, said:

I don't know about 'noble' but peaceful, perhaps. There's definitely no evidence of any sort of "invasion" meaning an incoming peoples forcing themselves, primarily through war, on more indigenous peoples.

cormac

Yes, there is evidence, but you are rejecting it, and I don't think you should be doing this.