119 replies to this topic

[SlimJim22]

Wow! I look forward to reading those links when I have more time. I think you will find the link below of particular interest I know I did. I have only found the site today so don't know how credible it is yet but it does seem to match up with a lot of things in this thread. Enjoy.

http://www.pufoin.com/

[Bud Rasputin]

Quote

2012

I'm still trying to wrap my head around is why 2012 is supposed to be a such an eventful time.
What we have evidence of is that it's only the end of the Mayan calendar, to my understanding.  However, the Mayans don't exist anymore as a civilization, for whatever reason.  They haven't existed for quite a few centuries. So their calendar has actually outlasted their civilization!

[Marby]

Bud Rasputin, on 20 March 2010 - 06:15 PM, said:

I'm still trying to wrap my head around is why 2012 is supposed to be a such an eventful time.
What we have evidence of is that it's only the end of the Mayan calendar, to my understanding. However, the Mayans don't exist anymore as a civilization, for whatever reason. They haven't existed for quite a few centuries. So their calendar has actually outlasted their civilization!

And they didn't see that coming...

[SlimJim22]

Bud Rasputin, on 20 March 2010 - 06:15 PM, said:

I'm still trying to wrap my head around is why 2012 is supposed to be a such an eventful time.
What we have evidence of is that it's only the end of the Mayan calendar, to my understanding.  However, the Mayans don't exist anymore as a civilization, for whatever reason.  They haven't existed for quite a few centuries. So their calendar has actually outlasted their civilization!

Where the is an end there is a beginning, where there is death, there is rebirth. That is what this 2012 stuff is all about. The start of a new age in astrological terms which could in theory lead to a subtle but fundamental shift in consciousness. The Maya were only one group of people who received the secret wisdom teachings. There are quite a few others but they are easier to hide than the Mayax. Did you ever wonder why they would develop or use a longcount calendar that started long, long before their time and ends quite some time in their future. The importance of it is the change of ages not some cataclysm that only occurs at certain times, so their prophecies predict. We approach a time with no forseen catastropes allegedly, so what do you think a change of age could represent in this case? A leap in evolution could be on the cards considering it has happenned before to mankind. People may expect some Xmen like evolution but chances are it will be of a spiritual and technological nature. We have had the Industrial Revolution and the digital revoltuion we are now in. What could the next be? Maybe a revolution of light.  Darkness always precedes light which means it will get worse before it gets better.


Edit to add link
http://www.2012-spir...s.com/maya.html

Edited by SlimJim22, 20 March 2010 - 06:51 PM.

[Mattshark]

SlimJim22, on 20 March 2010 - 06:50 PM, said:

Where the is an end there is a beginning, where there is death, there is rebirth. That is what this 2012 stuff is all about. The start of a new age in astrological terms which could in theory lead to a subtle but fundamental shift in consciousness. The Maya were only one group of people who received the secret wisdom teachings. There are quite a few others but they are easier to hide than the Mayax. Did you ever wonder why they would develop or use a longcount calendar that started long, long before their time and ends quite some time in their future. The importance of it is the change of ages not some cataclysm that only occurs at certain times, so their prophecies predict. We approach a time with no forseen catastropes allegedly, so what do you think a change of age could represent in this case? A leap in evolution could be on the cards considering it has happenned before to mankind. People may expect some Xmen like evolution but chances are it will be of a spiritual and technological nature. We have had the Industrial Revolution and the digital revoltuion we are now in. What could the next be? Maybe a revolution of light.  Darkness always precedes light which means it will get worse before it gets better.


Edit to add link
http://www.2012-spir...s.com/maya.html

Well, there are no prophecies associated with 2012, and  secret wisdom of the Maya? Are we going to have a new age of human sacrifice are we? And no there is nothing in astrology to say that it could do anything to our consciousness, we won't all suddenly produce different hormones because of a change in date.

[SlimJim22]

Mattshark, on 21 March 2010 - 11:22 AM, said:

Well, there are no prophecies associated with 2012, and  secret wisdom of the Maya? Are we going to have a new age of human sacrifice are we? And no there is nothing in astrology to say that it could do anything to our consciousness, we won't all suddenly produce different hormones because of a change in date.

Thanks for contributing Matt you know I value your opinion. So, I think there are prophecies that relate to 2012 it just depends whether you believe the people touting them are frauds or not, doesn't it? We've been into that before and it is not relevant to the points at hand. Suffice to say 2012 is allegedly the dawn of an new age. In previous times a change occasionally coincides with a cataclysm. That doesn't mean it is immediate it can a couple of hundred years or so after but the new age signiies the start of a fundamental change not the fundamental change itself.

Why bring human sacrifice in to it? You do make me laugh, I think we are past the point of throwing people into crocodile pits so as to appease the gods and have a good harvest. No, we are talking about getting to grips with the science that we don't fully comprehend. Filling in the gaps in our knowledge. That which we don't yet know and that wich has been hidden but is now resurfacing on the internet. And don't try and bring this or than person into it. There are more and more people evryday realizing these things and bringing it to the table in a worthwhile way so don't try and use the occassional frauds to discredit the whole area of reserach.

Even the science of evolutionary psychology is open to the prospect of, let's call it 'advancement potential' the laws of natural selection and cause and effect are still in play, yes? So, if our environment is changing which it is and has been forever, then so can we as and when the laws of nature or evolution dictate.  


If you study the mysteries then you will be able to answer the last question by yourself.

[crystal sage]

SlimJim22, on 20 March 2010 - 05:54 PM, said:

Wow! I look forward to reading those links when I have more time. I think you will find the link below of particular interest I know I did. I have only found the site today so don't know how credible it is yet but it does seem to match up with a lot of things in this thread. Enjoy.

http://www.pufoin.com/

  Thanks... will explore... lots of interesting info/theories here...

[Mattshark]

SlimJim22, on 21 March 2010 - 01:17 PM, said:

Thanks for contributing Matt you know I value your opinion. So, I think there are prophecies that relate to 2012 it just depends whether you believe the people touting them are frauds or not, doesn't it? We've been into that before and it is not relevant to the points at hand. Suffice to say 2012 is allegedly the dawn of an new age. In previous times a change occasionally coincides with a cataclysm. That doesn't mean it is immediate it can a couple of hundred years or so after but the new age signiies the start of a fundamental change not the fundamental change itself.

Well, look who says it is the dawn of a new age, generally it is people just making stuff up, or relying on limited knowledge.
People have never changed like that before and we are not going to do so know, the human mind isn't going to change by some arbitrary date

Quote

Why bring human sacrifice in to it? You do make me laugh, I think we are past the point of throwing people into crocodile pits so as to appease the gods and have a good harvest. No, we are talking about getting to grips with the science that we don't fully comprehend. Filling in the gaps in our knowledge. That which we don't yet know and that wich has been hidden but is now resurfacing on the internet. And don't try and bring this or than person into it. There are more and more people evryday realizing these things and bringing it to the table in a worthwhile way so don't try and use the occassional frauds to discredit the whole area of reserach.

The Maya liked their human sacrifice that is why.
No, what the internet is surfacing is a lot of junk mate, it is the worlds biggest source of BS.

Quote

Even the science of evolutionary psychology is open to the prospect of, let's call it 'advancement potential' the laws of natural selection and cause and effect are still in play, yes? So, if our environment is changing which it is and has been forever, then so can we as and when the laws of nature or evolution dictate.  

Well, if you consider that a science. I personally don't! Social change takes time and natural selection is not involved and biological evolution can only take place across generations, not within one.

Quote

If you study the mysteries then you will be able to answer the last question by yourself.

The problem is that there is no mystery.

[SlimJim22]

Mattshark, on 21 March 2010 - 03:43 PM, said:

Well, look who says it is the dawn of a new age, generally it is people just making stuff up, or relying on limited knowledge.
People have never changed like that before and we are not going to do so know, the human mind isn't going to change by some arbitrary date


The Maya liked their human sacrifice that is why.
No, what the internet is surfacing is a lot of junk mate, it is the worlds biggest source of BS.


Well, if you consider that a science. I personally don't! Social change takes time and natural selection is not involved and biological evolution can only take place across generations, not within one.


The problem is that there is no mystery.

Have you not heard of the long count?

I don't understand how you can claim we have not changed as a species. We have been progressing since the walls of Jericho were first set up. Since the dawn of christianity which funnily enough came during an alleged change of astrological age and Jesus himself is said to have used the same symbol as his own, our progression has moved on at an increased rate. Sure there was the end of the Roman empire and the subsequent dark ages but darkness followed by light is all part of the motion of evolution imo. Following ages the mind of man was developing constantly, the Rennaissance and all it's art and literature, the age of reason with the advances in science and governance. I am not a historian so I can't give as good a breakdown as I'd like but I hope you see my point. It is capped off by the industrial reovlution and all the achievements made in the 20th century like air travel and the space age. The 21st century is bringing new areas to the table, quatum physics is finally getting away from theory and into practice so there is a possibility that in the not too distant future dimensional travel or travel in spacetime could become achievable. Technology evolves as we do.

The early Maya, who introduced the Mayan calendar as the Olmecs as early as 2,000bce but no later than 600bce had no interest in sacrifice. Over a millenia passed and many of the teachings had become lost or distorted by the name the need for sacrifice was taken. If the crops are failing and you cannot sustain a population you cannot blame the primitive people for taking a gamble and trying to appease the gods. This could well have been with great remorse they did the sacrifices but the alternative would have been for every one to starve, which they eventually did. If it could be shown that the Maya used the ball game in choosing the sacrifice it does not seem quite as barbaric. In fact may I suggest that it was the victors who were given the privelege of being sacrificed as a great honour to the god.

I don't know enough about EP to debate the ins and outs of it being a science or not but the truth is scientists are unsure as to how the human mind really works. They say we only use 10% or something but they don't know why that is.

As for there not being a mystery, if you say so bud but wouldn't you be dissappointed if there was and you were just too stubborn to consider it.

[Mattshark]

SlimJim22, on 21 March 2010 - 04:10 PM, said:

Have you not heard of the long count?

Yes, it ain't a prophesy though. The Maya had no prophesy. It is just a calender.

Quote

I don't understand how you can claim we have not changed as a species. We have been progressing since the walls of Jericho were first set up. Since the dawn of christianity which funnily enough came during an alleged change of astrological age and Jesus himself is said to have used the same symbol as his own, our progression has moved on at an increased rate. Sure there was the end of the Roman empire and the subsequent dark ages but darkness followed by light is all part of the motion of evolution imo. Following ages the mind of man was developing constantly, the Rennaissance and all it's art and literature, the age of reason with the advances in science and governance. I am not a historian so I can't give as good a breakdown as I'd like but I hope you see my point. It is capped off by the industrial reovlution and all the achievements made in the 20th century like air travel and the space age. The 21st century is bringing new areas to the table, quatum physics is finally getting away from theory and into practice so there is a possibility that in the not too distant future dimensional travel or travel in spacetime could become achievable. Technology evolves as we do.

Socially yes, behaviourally, not that much really.
Nothing to do with evolution in the slightest though, sorry.

Quote

The early Maya, who introduced the Mayan calendar as the Olmecs as early as 2,000bce but no later than 600bce had no interest in sacrifice. Over a millenia passed and many of the teachings had become lost or distorted by the name the need for sacrifice was taken. If the crops are failing and you cannot sustain a population you cannot blame the primitive people for taking a gamble and trying to appease the gods. This could well have been with great remorse they did the sacrifices but the alternative would have been for every one to starve, which they eventually did. If it could be shown that the Maya used the ball game in choosing the sacrifice it does not seem quite as barbaric. In fact may I suggest that it was the victors who were given the privelege of being sacrificed as a great honour to the god.

Well it is hard to find a culture that didn't sacrifice around those periods quite frankly.
It all shares a Zapotec history too from the same region and similar period and they did sacrifice and there is some evidence that the Olmec did too, they definitely went for bloodletting.

Quote

I don't know enough about EP to debate the ins and outs of it being a science or not but the truth is scientists are unsure as to how the human mind really works. They say we only use 10% or something but they don't know why that is.

No, that is a huge myth, we know at least one use for every single part of the brain and we know a great deal of what a lot it does. Most of the brain is actually used for keeping us alive.

Quote

As for there not being a mystery, if you say so bud but wouldn't you be dissappointed if there was and you were just too stubborn to consider it.

Not really, I like real mysteries, not ones that rely on people making things up or ignoring evidence.

Edited by Mattshark, 21 March 2010 - 04:32 PM.

[SlimJim22]

Mattshark, on 21 March 2010 - 04:21 PM, said:

Yes, it ain't a prophesy though. The Maya had no prophesy. It is just a calender.


Socially yes, behaviourally, not that much really.
Nothing to do with evolution in the slightest though, sorry.


Well it is hard to find a culture that didn't sacrifice around those periods quite frankly.
It all shares a Zapotec history too from the same region and similar period and they did sacrifice and there is some evidence that the Olmec did too, they definitely went for bloodletting.


No, that is a huge myth, we know at least one use for every single part of the brain and we know a great deal of what a lot it does. Most of the brain is actually used for keeping us alive.


Not really, I like real mysteries, not ones that rely on people making things up or ignoring evidence.

As I said when you started, there is a prophecy, you and your friends just aren't willing to consider all the Pacal Votan stuff. I think there is merit to this theory though it is complicated.

Who is to say that we will not socially evolve further, we already are with the massive growth in cyber culture. Isn't it evolution that you and I are having this conversation when we could not have a decade or two ago.

To my mind technology is an extension of mankind so therefore any future advances we make are intimately involved with our ever increasing consciousness. We do not evolve as individuals but as a society. Alternatively, society must evolve before the individuals can, I doubt it is the other way around but it is possible.

Considering my point about the ball game being linked to sacrifice, and it being the Olmecs who introduced it, I am only slightly surprised that they did perform occassional sacrifices. Because they revered the underworld so greatly it is a distinct possibility that a sacrificial death was the greatest honour one could have. They were going to die eventually so why not go out with the biggest party going, I am sure the women would make themselves very grateful before hand.  

We know some things about the brain but not that much about the spiritual aspects, dreams or the subconscious. I don't mean we know nothing just not much compared to the biological functiong. The endocrine is one of the lesser known about bodily systems, the doctors can't sort a thyroid problem without about half a dozen assessments. Rubbish! It's not really like the law of ethics allow for a whole load of human brain research and animal test results can't really be generalized. Do they dice up dolphin brains when they get an opportunity?

I like Columbo but I reckon you are more of a Poirot kind of a guy, am I right?  

[Mattshark]

Because there is no reason to accept the Pacal Votan stuff, ever wondered why it the those who are not educated in the field that do accept it?

Social evolution still hasn't changed our behaviour as individuals though, that is the point, people everywhere are pretty much the same no matter what culture and conditions the live in. Importantly, only populations, not individuals can evolve biologically.

Yes, it may have been an honour, the Olmec infant sacrifices probably not so much.

Well as someone who has studied behaviour, I find sticking spiritual stuff in with science rather insulting, it is conjecture and quite frankly most of it seems to come from a lack of understanding of how the brain works. None of it requires spiritual explanations, and we know enough about the brain to understand how behavioural changes can be triggered and none existent galactic alignments are certainly not in there.

Edited by Mattshark, 21 March 2010 - 06:34 PM.

[SlimJim22]

Mattshark, on 21 March 2010 - 06:33 PM, said:

Because there is no reason to accept the Pacal Votan stuff, ever wondered why it the those who are not educated in the field that do accept it?

Social evolution still hasn't changed our behaviour as individuals though, that is the point, people everywhere are pretty much the same no matter what culture and conditions the live in. Importantly, only populations, not individuals can evolve biologically.

Yes, it may have been an honour, the Olmec infant sacrifices probably not so much.

Well as someone who has studied behaviour, I find sticking spiritual stuff in with science rather insulting, it is conjecture and quite frankly most of it seems to come from a lack of understanding of how the brain works. None of it requires spiritual explanations, and we know enough about the brain to understand how behavioural changes can be triggered and none existent galactic alignments are certainly not in there.

Are you denying that there is to be any sort of alignment or a specific change in relation to our position to the Dark Rift?

Earlier in the thread I did make a distinction whereby I said an individual could have 'advancement potential' that could be changed with ascension or enlightenment I expect. This may not be biological fact yet but neither can it be ruled out.

Lots of cultures have performed sacrifice infant or otherwise, there's no good singling out any one specific people as good or bad I'm sure you agree. Individuals can be either but not cultures themselves so it is not really relevant. We are talking about there maths and calendar which suggest they were part of a greater global culture. See my previous link

Again you can't say for sure either way. There is a lot to science we are just starting to figure out to do with sound and light and vibrations. If 2012 has anything to do with the frequency of the galaxy shifting slightly then who is to know how such an effect could effect the entire solar system not just us. Of course it is conjecture because none of this can be proved in a lab but neither can it be disproved so while nobody is getting hurt, what is the harm in people trying to improve themsleves? Don't you think it is strange how many people are getting into this stuff in one way or another? I mean from yoga to abduction stories there has been a steady but marked increase in this kind of behaviour. Therefore by your reasoning as a people we are evoving to be more healthy, sustainable, technological and spiritual are we not?

[TheSearcher]

Slim, remember this little discussion we had? Pacal Votan is an invention of a con man, honestly I'm not afraid to call it what it is, a load of BS, not even worthy of your attention.

Like I said before, charging $9.95/month to $499.95 for enlightenment is a con. If you buy into it, then don't be surprised that people either call you naive or silly.

Edited by TheSearcher, 22 March 2010 - 09:28 AM.

[Emma_Acid]

Man alive, this things really grown legs.

SlimJim22, on 21 March 2010 - 07:53 PM, said:

Are you denying that there is to be any sort of alignment or a specific change in relation to our position to the Dark Rift?

The Great Rift has nothing to do with earth. Its 300 light years away and is a bunch of huge gas clouds. We have no "relation" to it, other than the massive distance, so its completely irrelevant.

SlimJim22, on 21 March 2010 - 07:53 PM, said:

Earlier in the thread I did make a distinction whereby I said an individual could have 'advancement potential' that could be changed with ascension or enlightenment I expect. This may not be biological fact yet but neither can it be ruled out.

Yes it can be ruled out - that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

SlimJim22, on 21 March 2010 - 07:53 PM, said:

Lots of cultures have performed sacrifice infant or otherwise, there's no good singling out any one specific people as good or bad I'm sure you agree. Individuals can be either but not cultures themselves so it is not really relevant. We are talking about there maths and calendar which suggest they were part of a greater global culture. See my previous link

I think Matt mentioned sacrifice in relation to the Maya as it was the Maya calendar which is the source of all this silliness.

SlimJim22, on 21 March 2010 - 07:53 PM, said:

Again you can't say for sure either way. There is a lot to science we are just starting to figure out to do with sound and light and vibrations.

Such as?

SlimJim22, on 21 March 2010 - 07:53 PM, said:

If 2012 has anything to do with the frequency of the galaxy shifting slightly then who is to know how such an effect could effect the entire solar system not just us.

Galaxies don't "shift slightly". They are all moving through space at tremendous speeds.

SlimJim22, on 21 March 2010 - 07:53 PM, said:

Of course it is conjecture because none of this can be proved in a lab but neither can it be disproved so while nobody is getting hurt

Its worse than "conjecture", its pure fiction.

SlimJim22, on 21 March 2010 - 07:53 PM, said:

what is the harm in people trying to improve themsleves?

Because this sort of BS is damaging. It's damaging to people's ability to sort out fact from fiction, to be able to think critically, and don't even get me started on subjects like little girls committing suicide because they think the world will end in 2012.

SlimJim22, on 21 March 2010 - 07:53 PM, said:

Don't you think it is strange how many people are getting into this stuff in one way or another?

Nope, not at all. A person is clever, but people are stupid - and simply because a lot of people buy into it doesn't make it any less BS. In the 17th century, much of the population of Europe thought that the plague was spread by Jews. Does this suddenly have any credence to it, just because a lot of people bought into it?

SlimJim22, on 21 March 2010 - 07:53 PM, said:

Therefore by your reasoning as a people we are evoving to be more healthy, sustainable, technological and spiritual are we not?

We aren't "evolving" to be healthy, sustainable, technological or spiritual. Evolution has nothing to do with it.