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Ban to fail students who challenge science


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#61    MiskatonicGrad

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 03:29 AM

View Postninjadude, on 06 March 2013 - 02:22 AM, said:

Hypothesis are not "proven true" that's the whole point you're missing. There is a preponderance of evidence for a particular theory. They are never proven true. By your logic we should teach the flat earthers and the moon made of cheese.
okay fine theory then but, preponderance of evidence is and will continue to be debated and again I see no educational benefit to this being required learning. shouldn't it be in some optional theoretical class? as to the earth being flat that was proven wrong thousands of years ago. the moon made of cheese that was one of my favorite Wallace and Gromet shorts :clap:

View Postninjadude, on 06 March 2013 - 02:24 AM, said:

You're really funny if you think that's the same thing.
yeah I didn't figure you had anything else.

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#62    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 08:28 AM

View PostQueen in the North, on 05 March 2013 - 08:57 PM, said:

Weirdly, in school, the place I was learned more about rationally assessing things and thinking critically, was Religious Studies (at A level, that is).

Our particular course was Philosophy & Ethics, taught by a Catholic (Catholic school) but he was very good at never attempting to tell us things, but present us with the theory, let us talk about them, pull --certain theories-- to shreds, and then getting us to write what we thought of them. Of course, this was a RE class, where justifying your own opinion with a suitable reason drawn from a fact or theory was enough to get marks.

It was the sciences where it was 1, 2, 3 - these are the facts, learn them, be able to rewrite them in the exam to get a good mark. And that has probably served me less well at university as the 'facts' we learned at A level aren't relevant now, or in too little detail, but being able to critically assess a text given to me has continued to be of use.

Slightly tangential, I know, but realising that made me go 'Woah!' My RE A level was useful after all...
very much so. That's what what's so ironic; Religious Studies, or Philosophy of Religion, isn't about indoctrination, but about looking at things critically, you're quite right. Science and Maths was just about facts and repeating those Facts, and you do completely depend on the sources that are telling you these Facts being completely correct and unbiased, don't you.

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#63    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 08:31 AM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 05 March 2013 - 06:11 PM, said:

It would certainly be better if our education system equipped us to rationally assess data and come to a reasonable conclusion based on it. However that almost completely the opposite of what education generally sets out to achieve (until masters level at least). In that situation allowing students to entertain the notion that dinosaurs co-existed with man is a slippery slope where fact is impossible to differentiate against fiction.

I say solve the problem with an education system which is geared to produce complaint technicians rather than thinking people - but I suspect that wish is also a fantasy.

Br Cornelius
Really? You'd rather the education system just turned out unquesitoning robots that accept what the Experts tell them rather than causing trouble by questioning it? The only thing they should do is rationally assess data, with no room for creativity or questioning the norms that they're presented with? That seems rather... authoritarian.

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H. P. Lovecraft.


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#64    Br Cornelius

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 12:18 PM

View PostLord Vetinari, on 06 March 2013 - 08:31 AM, said:

Really? You'd rather the education system just turned out unquesitoning robots that accept what the Experts tell them rather than causing trouble by questioning it? The only thing they should do is rationally assess data, with no room for creativity or questioning the norms that they're presented with? That seems rather... authoritarian.
You misunderstood my point. I would rather that education teaches students how to think and leaves the facts for them to discover. That is not the purpose of education as it is constituted now so allowing questionable facts into the system is very dangerous because students have almost no ability to differentiate.
Understanding the purpose of education in a modern society means that I understand that we will never transition to a system where thinking is encourages - so unfortunately that means we need a strict curriculum to prevent superstition been tought along with established science.

Unfortunate but true.

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#65    Br Cornelius

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 12:26 PM

View PostQueen in the North, on 05 March 2013 - 08:57 PM, said:

Weirdly, in school, the place I was learned more about rationally assessing things and thinking critically, was Religious Studies (at A level, that is).

Our particular course was Philosophy & Ethics, taught by a Catholic (Catholic school) but he was very good at never attempting to tell us things, but present us with the theory, let us talk about them, pull --certain theories-- to shreds, and then getting us to write what we thought of them. Of course, this was a RE class, where justifying your own opinion with a suitable reason drawn from a fact or theory was enough to get marks.

It was the sciences where it was 1, 2, 3 - these are the facts, learn them, be able to rewrite them in the exam to get a good mark. And that has probably served me less well at university as the 'facts' we learned at A level aren't relevant now, or in too little detail, but being able to critically assess a text given to me has continued to be of use.

Slightly tangential, I know, but realising that made me go 'Woah!' My RE A level was useful after all...
I appreciate what you are saying here and I value the Religious Education I recieved for similar reasons - but that is very much the exception in education.
Education as constituted now is about producing technically able but socially compliant citizens. Thinking is the last thing that any government want of their citizens and thats why they proscribe that schools teach facts which are necessary to perform productive work.

I recently went through a degree and saw the consequences of this approach. I was a mature student among youths and I saw a total lack of ability to do any critical thinking and a reasonable ability to parrot facts. I also saw a total lack of engagement between the pupils and the subject which is a consequence of producing drones who only expect to get a well paid job for their efforts.
Most technical jobs need skills - but they don't need a person who questions the application of those skills.

Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson




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