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Libertarian populism is bunk


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#76    Jessica Christ

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 07:18 AM

When it comes to libertarianism:

Quote

nothing happens

Fixed it for you.

They have been at it for years and get no where. There is a reason for this. They call everyone uninformed and foolish, not a way to win over the masses. They hate the mainstream, so much for democracy. They prefer to live in a fantasy land where being a contrarian is more important than cooperating. The internet has given them a renewed platform to spread their ideas, mainly in the form of contempt for statism and the two-party system, but they offer no real solutions except dissolution and nullification.

Welcome to Fantasyland.

Let us not get into the conspiracy they believe in...

Edited by The world needs you, 15 July 2013 - 07:22 AM.


#77    acidhead

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 07:28 AM

View PostThe world needs you, on 15 July 2013 - 07:18 AM, said:

When it comes to libertarianism:



Fixed it for you.

They have been at it for years and get no where. There is a reason for this. They call everyone uninformed and foolish, not a way to win over the masses. They hate the mainstream, so much for democracy. They prefer to live in a fantasy land where being a contrarian is more important than cooperating. The internet has given them a renewed platform to spread their ideas, mainly in the form of contempt for statism and the two-party system, but they offer no real solutions except dissolution and nullification.

Welcome to Fantasyland.

Let us not get into the conspiracy they believe in...

Wrong...

Liberalism and so-called Conservatism has been the collective,

you lose

"there is no wrong or right - just popular opinion"

#78    Jessica Christ

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 07:37 AM

View Postacidhead, on 15 July 2013 - 07:28 AM, said:

Wrong...

Liberalism and so-called Conservatism has been the collective,

you lose

Which is why libertarianism is ineffective for now. It plays a zero-sum game with no room for cooperation. Instead it plays against reality.

The collective are already part of the system and vote accordingly. Of course the libertarian myth claims the masses belong to them and somehow just need to wake up to realize it. This is no dream, we are already awake.

Edited by The world needs you, 15 July 2013 - 08:34 AM.


#79    Br Cornelius

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 08:05 AM

It's good see some of the Libertarian bubbles been burst.
A group which deals in nothing but myths and absolutes and pursuit of the individual above all other goods, is not to be trusted.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 15 July 2013 - 08:08 AM.

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#80    Admiral Rhubarb

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 08:10 AM

View PostThe world needs you, on 15 July 2013 - 07:18 AM, said:

When it comes to libertarianism:



Fixed it for you.

They have been at it for years and get no where. There is a reason for this. They call everyone uninformed and foolish, not a way to win over the masses. They hate the mainstream, so much for democracy. They prefer to live in a fantasy land where being a contrarian is more important than cooperating. The internet has given them a renewed platform to spread their ideas, mainly in the form of contempt for statism and the two-party system, but they offer no real solutions except dissolution and nullification.

Welcome to Fantasyland.

Let us not get into the conspiracy they believe in...
this is the thing, I think the two-party system has long outlived any usefulness it may have had, and it's definitely time to scrap it, and Govt. is without a doubt enormously over-arrogant, wasteful and over-extensive, but the supporters of these "alternatives" do seem to be content with taking an attitude of elitism and "we can see the Truth but the poor deluded Sheeple can't", and that really doesn't encourage a feeling that they actually have any positive ideas apart, of course, from seeing the Truth.

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

H. P. Lovecraft.


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#81    Br Cornelius

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 08:24 AM

View PostColonel Rhuairidh, on 15 July 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

this is the thing, I think the two-party system has long outlived any usefulness it may have had, and it's definitely time to scrap it, and Govt. is without a doubt enormously over-arrogant, wasteful and over-extensive, but the supporters of these "alternatives" do seem to be content with taking an attitude of elitism and "we can see the Truth but the poor deluded Sheeple can't", and that really doesn't encourage a feeling that they actually have any positive ideas apart, of course, from seeing the Truth.
I question the fact that they see the truth. They may see part of the problems, but the truth involves having a better functional alternative - to which they are all but silent on.
i think most of them are unwitting dupes for Corporate lobbying interests - the only bodies who would really do well out of their "radical" plans.
Try getting a Libertarian to define how much Government is just enough, that will make you laugh.

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#82    Jessica Christ

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 08:31 AM

View PostColonel Rhuairidh, on 15 July 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

this is the thing, I think the two-party system has long outlived any usefulness it may have had, and it's definitely time to scrap it, and Govt. is without a doubt enormously over-arrogant, wasteful and over-extensive, but the supporters of these "alternatives" do seem to be content with taking an attitude of elitism and "we can see the Truth but the poor deluded Sheeple can't", and that really doesn't encourage a feeling that they actually have any positive ideas apart, of course, from seeing the Truth.

Great points and we will all inevitably have ideas on how to reform the electoral system and government in itself.

Progressives wish to remove the elements of corporatism from the electoral process as a start and from government overall.

The two-party system might naturally give way to greater expressions within a multi-party system but even that has its own deficiencies and weaknesses.

Direct democracy where every issue is based on initiative might be a solution that will eventually come to the fore once we enter a more technologically adaptive era and can trust in technology to be foolproof.

Single-party systems are also there. All these type of party systems are not what is most important anyways in my view since they can all be corrupted. Warding ourselves from polarization might be more important to allow centrism to operate once again. Balance is key.

The media also cannot be a mouthpiece for the government but it cannot veer too far either and become subversive of it only to become the mouthpiece of its corporate owners. Journalism's foundation should be a strong academic system that not only teaches what unbiased journalism is but can also teach an educated populace how to recognize it.

Edited by The world needs you, 15 July 2013 - 08:36 AM.


#83    Br Cornelius

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 09:28 AM

Quote

Single-party systems are also there. All these type of party systems are not what is most important anyways in my view since they can all be corrupted. Warding ourselves from polarization might be more important to allow centrism to operate once again. Balance is key.

All forms of Government have a single party continuity - it is the much maligned Civil service.

Br Cornelius

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Robert Anton Wilson

#84    Jessica Christ

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 09:52 AM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 15 July 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

All forms of Government have a single party continuity - it is the much maligned Civil service.

Br Cornelius

Which of course the libertarians want to privatize.

Natural monopolies are evil bureaucracy to them but good old corporate monopolies are just fine and dandy.

Definitely maligned but let us see if private prisons, police, schools, and mail will improve quality or just improve profits for the few corporations that will own them.

Edited by The world needs you, 15 July 2013 - 09:55 AM.


#85    Jeremiah65

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 01:58 PM

Your endless and mindless rhetoric has run it's course.

The fear of the Libertarian party is so palpable in this thread you can literally smell it...that and the bullsh!t you are flinging...

I'm done... no amount of debating is going to convince the other that they are incorrect.  I have studied and followed the party for years...

Back to "the original point" that I admitted to have taken incorrectly...

To summarize...pretending to have a bit of libertarian ideology is not going to save the Republicans....

I'm not going to debate with you over Libertarian vs Green...or Liberal or Progressive or whatever...in a debate, one side concedes...which means one side would change parties...that is not going to happen here.

You are not going to ever convince me I am wrong and likely I am not going to convince you that you are wrong...so it is not a debate...it is an argument...a pointless one at that.

I am convinced that personal freedom and responsibility is the cure for our ails and no one is going to convince me otherwise...we have been trying the heavy hand of Gov controlling things and it is failing to turn things around...

"Liberty means responsibility.  That is why most men dread it."  George Bernard Shaw
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."  Thomas Jefferson

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#86    Frank Merton

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 02:15 PM

I think the United States is fast approaching the point where it needs a Constitutional Convention to scrap the present Constitution and put in a new one.  Vested interests have gotten too vested.

It is interesting that the Founders put that provision in which has since pretty much been ignored, but an occasional amendment is not enough to deal with the inevitable encrustation of vested and corrupt influences that overtake any system of government over the centuries.

One of the larger failures of the original Constitution was its failure to deal with political parties and their inevitable rise.  Washington considered the issue but decided it wasn't worth the trouble -- the American populace was not that stupid.  They must be banned.  This is done by making all elections open elections with a series of primaries until a candidate gets a majority, and no political party conventions or party apparatus or party funds or party identification in registration or on ballots.

The Leninist system that one now sees in China and Vietnam, where an elite become the party through careful vetting suggests itself to me as I am use to it, but I can see that Americans would not be psychologically prepared, given the propaganda they've gotten over the last century.


#87    Yamato

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 10:59 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 15 July 2013 - 02:15 PM, said:

I think the United States is fast approaching the point where it needs a Constitutional Convention to scrap the present Constitution and put in a new one.  Vested interests have gotten too vested.

It is interesting that the Founders put that provision in which has since pretty much been ignored, but an occasional amendment is not enough to deal with the inevitable encrustation of vested and corrupt influences that overtake any system of government over the centuries.

One of the larger failures of the original Constitution was its failure to deal with political parties and their inevitable rise.  Washington considered the issue but decided it wasn't worth the trouble -- the American populace was not that stupid.  They must be banned.  This is done by making all elections open elections with a series of primaries until a candidate gets a majority, and no political party conventions or party apparatus or party funds or party identification in registration or on ballots.

The Leninist system that one now sees in China and Vietnam, where an elite become the party through careful vetting suggests itself to me as I am use to it, but I can see that Americans would not be psychologically prepared, given the propaganda they've gotten over the last century.
The original Constitution can be amended.  The original Constitution has been amended.  That's what you Leninists can't seem to understand.  I hate to bust up your pow wow here but while you're plugging your good ideas for getting rid of the two party system, you keep implying that bad ideas are permanent and good ideas can't be added.  If we're politically constipated in this country the problem is with the people.   The people have the power to change the government.  We have the power to change anything and everything.  But we're too lazy, too decadent, too dependent on government to make the world go round for us.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#88    ninjadude

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 02:09 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 15 July 2013 - 02:15 PM, said:

I think the United States is fast approaching the point where it needs a Constitutional Convention to scrap the present Constitution and put in a new one.

Umm no let's not.

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