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Gay marriage 'to be illegal'

gat marriage maria miller

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#91    Cassea

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 11:17 PM

A Catholic woman or man who get divorced know that the church will not recognize the divorce. They cannot get remarried in a Catholic Church. There are more divorced Catholics trying to get remarried in the world. Than gay people trying to get married in the world. I am sure of this.  At least equal or more.   And yet.  You have never heard of a Catholic getting angry and trying. To force the Catholic Church to marry them.  Because they know the priest can't do it.   So they find an alternative.  There are many churches willing to marry gay couples.  But the Catholic Church cannot do it.  It is not that they will not.  They cannot.  The same way they cannot remarry a divorced person.  So why do we not see protests among the divorced?  Because they are mature enough.  To respect the religious views of others.  To respect that they answer to God.  Not the whims of people.  And they accept this out of respect.   Trying to force a sacred religious group to change their God given laws.  Makes no sense.  If it's about changing that.  You would be talking to the Jews as well. But you do not.  It is an attack on the religion.  Not a matter of gay rights.

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#92    Cassea

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 11:19 PM

View Postshadowhive, on 12 December 2012 - 11:15 PM, said:

Ok. You've misread, because the propsed law is going to do the opposite of what you claim.

Ok, I'll be clear about what is being made illegal. The proposed law will make it illegal for the church of england to perform same sex marriages. Not illegal to refuse them, but illegal to do them. That law only applies to the church of england and wales.

Every other religion has the choice to opt in on same sex marriage, with no legal ramifications either way. No church that opts out of same sex marriage will be forced to do one as it will not be illegal for them.

Hope that makes things crystal clear.

I won't answer the rest, since its all down to your misconception as to whats being made illegal.


No it isn't.  I have stated.  You forced their hand.   By constantly pushing to make it legal.  You gave them no choice but to fight back.  If you had just gone to the churches that would do it. The same way a divorced Catholic woman would do.  Then you would not have created this issue.   Because of the attack on the church and it's values.  The church finally fought back.  That is what is happening.

Quoted from the article

Quote

In her statement, Mrs Miller promised a "quadruple lock" to protect religious freedom, involving:
  • No religious organisation or individual minister being compelled to marry same-sex couples or to permit this to happen on their premises
  • Making it unlawful for religious organisations or their ministers to marry same-sex couples unless their organisation's governing body has expressly opted in to provisions for doing so
  • Amending the 2010 Equality Act to ensure no discrimination claim can be brought against religious organisations or individual ministers for refusing to marry a same-sex couple
  • The legislation explicitly stating that it will be illegal for the Church of England and the Church in Wales to marry same-sex couples and that Canon Law, which bans same-sex weddings, will continue to apply


Edited by Cassea, 12 December 2012 - 11:22 PM.

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#93    shadowhive

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 11:22 PM

View PostCassea, on 12 December 2012 - 11:17 PM, said:

A Catholic woman or man who get divorced know that the church will not recognize the divorce. They cannot get remarried in a Catholic Church. There are more divorced Catholics trying to get remarried in the world. Than gay people trying to get married in the world. I am sure of this.  At least equal or more.   And yet.  You have never heard of a Catholic getting angry and trying. To force the Catholic Church to marry them.  Because they know the priest can't do it.   So they find an alternative.  There are many churches willing to marry gay couples.  But the Catholic Church cannot do it.  It is not that they will not.  They cannot.  The same way they cannot remarry a divorced person.  So why do we not see protests among the divorced?  Because they are mature enough.  To respect the religious views of others.  To respect that they answer to God.  Not the whims of people.  And they accept this out of respect.   Trying to force a sacred religious group to change their God given laws.  Makes no sense.  If it's about changing that.  You would be talking to the Jews as well. But you do not.  It is an attack on the religion.  Not a matter of gay rights.

Right. The point I was making about divorce, which clearly has gone over you, is that the catholic church has the RIGHT to not marry divorced people. That means anyone that's divorced can't force the church into marrying them. HOWEVER the catholic church canot force divorced people not to marry. They can always marry elsewhere. The catholic church can only stop divorced people marrying in it's walls, not anywhere else.

The same should be true for gay marriage.

Again, no one is being forced to do a damn thing. The church is the only group thats trying to force people to do things.

I would say the same things to Jews, Muslims, Christians or anyone else so you're wrong there. But you've been wrong for quite some time.

Edited by shadowhive, 12 December 2012 - 11:23 PM.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
"There's the trouble with fanatics. They're easy to manipulate, but somehow they take everything five steps too far."
"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."

#94    shadowhive

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 11:26 PM

View PostCassea, on 12 December 2012 - 11:19 PM, said:

No it isn't.  I have stated.  You forced their hand.   By constantly pushing to make it legal.  You gave them no choice but to fight back.  If you had just gone to the churches that would do it. The same way a divorced Catholic woman would do.  Then you would not have created this issue.   Because of the attack on the church and it's values.  The church finally fought back.  That is what is happening.

The bold part is EXACTLY what gay people have wanted to do.

I'm getting a bit sick of this. I have said the same thing to you four or five times now, yet you spout the party line of churches being forced despite me saying that NO CHURCH IS BEING FORCED TO DO ANYTHING! It's even part of the law that no church will be forced into it! Yet the church is 'fighting back' against something that won't be forced on it. It's fighting to make sure NO same sex couple is able to marry anywhere because that is the only thing it really cares about.

The quote from the article that you'e used works against you as it shows clearly that no church wwill be forced to do anything. The only church forced to do anything is the church of england (point four) where it'll be illegal for them to marry any same sex couple.

Quote

Making it unlawful for religious organisations or their ministers to marry same-sex couples unless their organisation's governing body has expressly opted in to provisions for doing so

Point two (above) states clearly that it'll be unlawful for any one in a church to marry any same sex couple unless their demomination allows it.

How exactly is that unclear?

Edited by shadowhive, 12 December 2012 - 11:30 PM.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
"There's the trouble with fanatics. They're easy to manipulate, but somehow they take everything five steps too far."
"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."

#95    Cassea

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 11:27 PM

View Postshadowhive, on 12 December 2012 - 11:22 PM, said:

Right. The point I was making about divorce, which clearly has gone over you, is that the catholic church has the RIGHT to not marry divorced people. That means anyone that's divorced can't force the church into marrying them. HOWEVER the catholic church canot force divorced people not to marry. They can always marry elsewhere. The catholic church can only stop divorced people marrying in it's walls, not anywhere else.

The same should be true for gay marriage.

Again, no one is being forced to do a damn thing. The church is the only group thats trying to force people to do things.

I would say the same things to Jews, Muslims, Christians or anyone else so you're wrong there. But you've been wrong for quite some time.

Did you read the article. That is not what the churches are doing. They are making it clear that they don't want to be forced.  To perform gay marriage.  Because it goes against their cannon.  The churches that are willing to do it.  Will not be Catholic Churches, Church of England etc.  They can be other nondemoninational churches. Etc.  It is very possible these days for a gay person to get married in most parts of the world.  But in some parts of the world gay people are executed. I would think that instead of inventing a fake issue.  You would focus on a real one.

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#96    Cassea

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 11:31 PM

View Postshadowhive, on 12 December 2012 - 11:26 PM, said:

The bold part is EXACTLY what gay people have wanted to do.

I'm getting a bit sick of this. I have said the same thing to you four or five times now, yet you spout the party line of churches being forced despite me saying that NO CHURCH IS BEING FORCED TO DO ANYTHING! It's even part of the law that no church will be forced into it! Yet the church is 'fighting back' against something that won't be forced on it. It's fighting to make sure NO same sex couple is able to marry anywhere because that is the only thing it really cares about.

Did you read the article?  When you say "the church" you need to recognize.  That most churches are bound by the canon of the headship.  Ex.  The Pope.  Catholic Churches can't perform gay marriages.  They can't perform remarriages.   Gay people have tried to force them to change their position on gay marriage.  Are you really arguing. That gay people haven't attacked the Church. For their position on gay marriage?

Straight people have not attacked the church. For their position on divorce.  They haven't gotten angry and attacked them. Gay people have attacked the church with violence. Etc.  They can't change the canon.

Edited by Cassea, 12 December 2012 - 11:32 PM.

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#97    shadowhive

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 11:34 PM

View PostCassea, on 12 December 2012 - 11:27 PM, said:

Did you read the article. That is not what the churches are doing. They are making it clear that they don't want to be forced.  To perform gay marriage.  Because it goes against their cannon.  The churches that are willing to do it.  Will not be Catholic Churches, Church of England etc.  They can be other nondemoninational churches. Etc.  It is very possible these days for a gay person to get married in most parts of the world.  But in some parts of the world gay people are executed. I would think that instead of inventing a fake issue.  You would focus on a real one.

As I live in the Uk I've been following this since the legislaation was first propsed. So while it doesn't say that in that one article, there's many more which make what I say crystal clear. They dont want anyone to perform gay marriage and are using the we'll be forced' reasoning as an excuse. The government has said for MONTHS that no one will be forced to do anything, yet the church has kept saying it anyway.

No one is interested in forccing any church to do anything. Yet that is as unclear to you as it is to the churches.

Edited by shadowhive, 12 December 2012 - 11:36 PM.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
"There's the trouble with fanatics. They're easy to manipulate, but somehow they take everything five steps too far."
"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."

#98    shadowhive

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 11:40 PM

View PostCassea, on 12 December 2012 - 11:31 PM, said:

Did you read the article?  When you say "the church" you need to recognize.  That most churches are bound by the canon of the headship.  Ex.  The Pope.  Catholic Churches can't perform gay marriages.  They can't perform remarriages.   Gay people have tried to force them to change their position on gay marriage.  Are you really arguing. That gay people haven't attacked the Church. For their position on gay marriage?

How many times do I have to say that no one has tried to force the church into doing gay marriages before you believe it? The church BELIEVES people will force them to, but no one has actually made any intention that they will.

Gay people have, however, tried to reason with the church, to try and get them to discourage discrimination and violence against gay people worldwide. Is that bad?

As an aside, the church can (and has) changed it's stance on issues before. Change should, therefore, be encouraged and it not be treated as an impossibility.

Quote

Straight people have not attacked the church. For their position on divorce.  They haven't gotten angry and attacked them. Gay people have attacked the church with violence. Etc.  They can't change the canon.

An example please.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
"There's the trouble with fanatics. They're easy to manipulate, but somehow they take everything five steps too far."
"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."

#99    Cassea

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 11:45 PM

You are not understanding the issue.

Please read this.

http://www.huffingto..._n_2276165.html


Quote


Under the proposed legislation, religious groups that do want to conduct same-sex weddings will be able to opt-in.
However the Church of England will be given an extra layer of security against being forced to do so in an effort to win over opponents. For the Church to conduct gay weddings parliament would also have to change the law to permit it.

Opponents of gay marriage, including at least 100 Tory MPs, have raised concerns that religious organisations who refuse to conduct same-sex marriages will face legal challenge and be forced to do so by the European Court of Human Rights.  


They are not trying to force it on all churches.  They are saying that it will be illegal for Church of England, Church of Wales and the Catholic Church to perform gay marriage. They are saying this to avoid lawsuits.  See what is says in the quote.  See why they say they are doing it.  They are doing this to protect the Church. From being sued.   That is how they have had their hand forced.  Because they have been threatened with lawsuits.  

They are not trying to make it illegal for all churches.  You are misunderstanding what they are doing.  They are simply protecting themselves.   Why don't you understand this. They wouldn't need to do this.  If gay people had simply gone to churches where they were welcomed.  Instead of attacking the Church for not changing. The rules of God. To suit them.

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#100    Cassea

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 11:50 PM

View Postshadowhive, on 12 December 2012 - 11:40 PM, said:

How many times do I have to say that no one has tried to force the church into doing gay marriages before you believe it? The church BELIEVES people will force them to, but no one has actually made any intention that they will.

Gay people have, however, tried to reason with the church, to try and get them to discourage discrimination and violence against gay people worldwide. Is that bad?

As an aside, the church can (and has) changed it's stance on issues before. Change should, therefore, be encouraged and it not be treated as an impossibility.



An example please.

Yes.  Also showing up like this

http://www.theblaze....n-gay-we-trust/

Is not trying to "reason with them."  It's attacking them.   You can't reason your way out of the canon of God.  If God stated it is an abomination in his eyes. That is what he said.  One sin is no worse than another sin.  Who are we to judge. We are all sinners.  But asking people to change the laws of God because you don't like this.  Is completely disrespectful to the Bible and the religious beliefs.  Of the Church.

Suing the church and threatening legal action. For denying gay marriage. Has brought the secular world. Into the church.  And it doesn't belong there.  It is an unfair action. The Church had no choice but to protect themselves.

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#101    RockabyeBillie

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 11:59 PM

View PostCassea, on 12 December 2012 - 11:50 PM, said:

You can't reason your way out of the canon of God.  If God stated it is an abomination in his eyes. That is what he said.

Then what about all of the other laws and 'canon' in the bible that have changed or been completely erased over the years (ie stoning to death children who disrespected their parents, encouraging slavery, etc)? What makes this one so special that it can't be changed?

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#102    Cassea

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 12:06 AM

View PostRockabyeBillie, on 12 December 2012 - 11:59 PM, said:

Then what about all of the other laws and 'canon' in the bible that have changed or been completely erased over the years (ie stoning to death children who disrespected their parents, encouraging slavery, etc)? What makes this one so special that it can't be changed?

Good question. This is something that is often. Misunderstood.   Unfortunately  God says that homosexuality is an abomination.  Below is a list of abominations in the Bible.

Please show one that the Church actively promotes as being OK.

http://richardwayneg...abomination.htm

To give you an example.  This is one is one that caused Jehovah's Witnesses. To separate themselves from the Church.  Making images/idols (Dt. 27:15)

Edited by Cassea, 13 December 2012 - 12:08 AM.

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#103    shadowhive

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 12:09 AM

View PostCassea, on 12 December 2012 - 11:45 PM, said:

You are not understanding the issue.

Like I said I have been following this issue for months. Youve been what? Concerned for a few days. I have read months of articles and I've lost track of the amount of times the church has tried to derail same sex marriage for all.

This is a statement just two days ago from a catholic bishop

Quote

The Rt Rev Joseph Devine, Bishop of Motherwell, believes the prime minister is now “out of his depth” and can no longer be trusted by Christians.
He has also accused the PM of undermining family life for allegedly refusing tosupport moves by Christians at the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) to demand their right to wear the cross at work.
In a letter, the bishopcompared David Cameron to Nero, the brutal Roman emperor who persecuted Christians.
He wrote: “You vacillate, ambivalent about the role you wish to perform – the disciple of David or Nero”.
“With such a contradiction between your statements and actions, on what basis can you expect anyone – Christians in particular – to trust or respect you?”

Trust me, I've seen countless statements just the same, claiming same sex marriage (for anyone) will break down the traditional family. Will destroy society. Will elad to less children being born and all other sorts of nonsense. And thats on top of the 'we'll be forced to do it arguement.

Quote

They are not trying to force it on all churches.  They are saying that it will be illegal for Church of England, Church of Wales and the Catholic Church to perform gay marriage. They are saying this to avoid lawsuits.  See what is says in the quote.  See why they say they are doing it.  They are doing this to protect the Church. From being sued.   That is how they have had their hand forced.  Because they have been threatened with lawsuits.

No, they're doing this because the church has pushed them. Not that the church of england is the only church where itll be illegal to perform same sex marriages. the catholic church doesnt get such protection' it can opt in or ot like anyone else. The goverment made it clear for months that the church wouldn't be at risk from being sued. Now it's had enough and gien one church overblown 'protection'

Quote

They are not trying to make it illegal for all churches.  You are misunderstanding what they are doing.  They are simply protecting themselves.   Why don't you understand this. They wouldn't need to do this.  If gay people had simply gone to churches where they were welcomed.  Instead of attacking the Church for not changing. The rules of God. To suit them.

Again, they've given it a damn good try. The article doesn't say it, but then Im going from reading (at an estimate) 50+ articles over many months about this. You're misunderstanding what they''re trying to do, but then again, you're only going from that article.

They have never needed protection because gay people simply wanted churches that DO welcome them to marry them. But no, the church lies, like it always does.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
"There's the trouble with fanatics. They're easy to manipulate, but somehow they take everything five steps too far."
"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."

#104    Arbenol

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 12:11 AM

View PostCassea, on 12 December 2012 - 11:50 PM, said:

Is not trying to "reason with them."  It's attacking them.  

Either tactic is reasonable.

People aren't saying that churches should be legally obliged to marry a gay couple. As far as I'm aware a church can decline to marry a heterosexual couple for any number of reasons. This is their right.

The article is a bit misleading. It's acknowledging that the C of E has the right to not perform these ceremonies and can make this a rule for all it's churches. If someone disagrees they also have the right to try and reason with them, but also to berate and attack them for their medieval mentality. (Of course I mean verbally attack, not physically).

The church does not get a free pass from criticism - even from topless nuns :whistle:


#105    Cassea

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 12:13 AM

I'm sorry shadowhive. But you are twisting what they are saying.  They are not trying to make it illegal for all churches. They are stating it is illegal for the Church of England, Church of Wale and Catholic Church.  This is being done to protect them. From lawsuits. It says all of this. In both articles.  I am reading the article.  And basing it on what they say.  You are calling them liars with. Ulterior motives.  That's unfair.  That's not true.

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