233 replies to this topic

[_Only]

Mattshark, on 20 May 2012 - 03:38 PM, said:

Yes, darn that actual evidence over blind belief. I mean where has that gotten us! Oh wait.

Darn nothing. I'm just saying people will make their own reality in one form or another, whether it agrees with yours or not.  

I find them both great things if they are helpful. Evidence from this physical reality may save my life some day. That blind belief (though not from any scripture) I might have found may also save my life. All I know is that the latter makes me want to. That's what it has gotten me. And that's pretty important if I may be blatantly selfish.

[Mattshark]

Seeker79, on 20 May 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

What evidence? again you have presented nothing that cannot apply to both. I'm actually open to both ideas. It would seem you are the one with blind faith.

There is not a shred of evidence that the brain is a producer of conciousness not a shred that cant be applied to a receiver as well. Then you through in the continuing evidence of NDEs, OBEs, and my own experiences... Then you will see that my belief  are far from blind, and are supported by more evidence than the opposite.

Well, Leo has. You are funny. You present a ridiculously unlikely scenario and act like it as much worth as a highly likely scenario and you accuse me or blind belief. You just keep on ignoring what you don't like Nothing like wilful ignorance.

Your experience is not evidence, basic error there seeker. Just because you think you can astrally project doesn't mean you can.

[Karlis]

Mattshark, on 20 May 2012 - 03:43 PM, said:

That is a myth, unless you think the Victorians lived in a far better society with less crime and less problems.
I mean it is terrible how using science over scripture has given us things like medicine!

Matt, I was thinking of the social progress in "early America, Founding Fathers etc., when I posted, "... it may be possible that Society's gradual distancing itself from Bible values is a major factor in the escalating breakdown of Western Society. ... unless one decides that society is progressing positively, rather than heading towards dissolution. ..."

Technological progress is not the point here, imo. That said, if we take scientific progress into consideration -- don't you think that this Planet should be a virtual paradise? Why is it not a paradise now? Maybe human values have gone downhill instead of keeping up with the developments in the sciences?

Karlis

[Mattshark]

_Only, on 20 May 2012 - 03:53 PM, said:

Darn nothing. I'm just saying people will make their own reality in one form or another, whether it agrees with yours or not.  

I find them both great things if they are helpful. Evidence from this physical reality may save my life some day. That blind belief (though not from any scripture) I might have found may also save my life. All I know is that the latter makes me want to. That's what it has gotten me. And that's pretty important if I may be blatantly selfish.

No, people can have their own perception of reality, that is a very different from having a different reality.

So, why has modern medicine led to significant increase in life expectancy? Blind belief hasn't. The fact is that only one of these thing has had a significant effect on society. Well, I say that, no one has have blown up a building in the name of modern medicine to be fair.

[_Only]

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Your experience is not evidence, basic error there seeker. Just because you think you can astrally project doesn't mean you can.

^ Pushing his reality into others realities again.

And don't say how your reality is better because science can create seedless watermelons. I see this theme coming up again and again in this thread from you.

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No, people can have their own perception of reality, that is a very different from having a different reality.

Reality is perception. Perception is reality. I think this is something you have an extremely hard time seeing.

Edited by _Only, 20 May 2012 - 04:04 PM.

[Mattshark]

Karlis, on 20 May 2012 - 04:01 PM, said:

Matt, I was thinking of the social progress in "early America, Founding Fathers etc., when I posted, "... it may be possible that Society's gradual distancing itself from Bible values is a major factor in the escalating breakdown of Western Society. ... unless one decides that society is progressing positively, rather than heading towards dissolution. ..."

Technological progress is not the point here, imo. That said, if we take scientific progress into consideration -- don't you think that this Planet should be a virtual paradise? Why is it not a paradise now? Maybe human values have gone downhill instead of keeping up with the developments in the sciences?

Karlis

Oooh America's founding fathers would be unhappy with how the US government has not distanced itself from from religion.

No, not unless you are happy to bring back segregation, increased homophobia, slavery, removal of womans rights.

Yeah, it was soooo much better before.

[Mattshark]

_Only, on 20 May 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:

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^ Pushing his reality into others realities again.

And don't say how your reality is better because science can create seedless watermelons. I see this theme coming up again and again in this thread from you.

How about curing cancer? I'd be dead but for that. You are arguing for ignorance and conjecture. Something that has provided nothing.

[Seeker79]

Mattshark, on 20 May 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

Yet most people who die and are revived don't experience NDE's, what does that say?

It is not most probably a receiver at all, that is completely illogical. It is most like the signal source. You are suggesting the far less parsimonious answer is accurate because you want it to be, not because it is the most likely answer and not because of evidence.

You do realise you are using examples that are ALL to a point are physical and involve chemistry, well done at contradicting your own argument.

No, you have made stuff and acted like it is evidence.

Most people that fall asleep and wake up don't remember their dreams. What does that say? Defiantly not that they weren't dreaming. We know this as fact.

If we were to use the unsupported materialist assumption that an NDE is a dream, why is it now different that dreams not remembered still exist but NDEs not remembered dont?  There just dreams right?!?!? Seems to me like there are some extremely biased games being played, and completely erroneous assumptions.

I have not made one signle thing up. Not one.

Edited by Seeker79, 20 May 2012 - 04:06 PM.

[Mattshark]

Seeker79, on 20 May 2012 - 04:05 PM, said:

Most people that fall asleep and wake up don't remember their dreams. What does that say? Defiantly not that they weren't dreaming. We know this as fact.

If we were to use the unsupported materialist assumption that an NDE is a dream, why is it now different that dreams not remembered still exist but NDEs not remembered dont?  There just dreams right?!?!? Seems to me like there are some extremely biased games being played, and completely erroneous assumptions.

Yes that is exactly what you are doing.

[Karlis]

Mattshark, on 20 May 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

Oooh America's founding fathers would be unhappy with how the US government has not distanced itself from from religion.

No, not unless you are happy to bring back segregation, increased homophobia, slavery, removal of womans rights.

Yeah, it was soooo much better before.

Those were the standards of those days Matt. Progress has been made there.

Why are you ignoring the positive aspects of stability of society?

[Leonardo]

_Only, on 20 May 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:

Reality is perception. Perception is reality. I think this is something you have an extremely hard time seeing.

There is something rather ironic in an argument proposing that reality is entirely subjective, yet accusing another of not believing that.

Edited by Leonardo, 20 May 2012 - 04:17 PM.

[Seeker79]

Mattshark, on 20 May 2012 - 03:56 PM, said:

Well, Leo has. You are funny. You present a ridiculously unlikely scenario and act like it as much worth as a highly likely scenario and you accuse me or blind belief. You just keep on ignoring what you don't like Nothing like wilful ignorance.

Your experience is not evidence, basic error there seeker. Just because you think you can astrally project doesn't mean you can.

Oh...  I defiantly can. It's the nature of the experience that is debatable. The experience itself is well documented unless you want to say I'm a liar, then we can't really have a discussion about it. ( ask Ai guardian about it. He is a good skeptic that has been there) No, it is not added to the body of evidence for others it is anecdotal. All experiences can only be anecdotal. The best science can do is verify with eegs that the person is in an unusual state of conciousness. This has been done.

"You present a ridiculously unlikely scenario and act like it as much worth as a highly likely scenario and you accuse me or blind belief"

This is the priemo example of extreme bias. Many many many times in discovery of phenomenon people label it rediculouse only  for it to one day become common knowledge. the real world is counter intuitive. It is not going to fit nicely into our limited abilities to observe and perspective. This has been prooven over and over again. Words like "rediculouse" "likely" "unlikely" mean absolutely nothing without supporting data.

[_Only]

Mattshark, on 20 May 2012 - 04:05 PM, said:

How about curing cancer? I'd be dead but for that.

What the heck are you talking about? This is a thread about what might be behind out of body experiences and consciousness, which has nothing to do with medicine, cancer, or seedless watermelons, and has not been "cured" through science. Stop making this connection in order to further your points here. It doesn't work, and is downright silly.

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You are arguing for ignorance and conjecture.  Something that has provided nothing.

Yes, because realizing that my perception of all around me is my reality is ignorant and pure conjecture. And this has provided me nothing. I'm starting to get dizzy from going in needless circles with you.

But be sure to reply back with another unrelated thing to the topic that science has done. Because that is totally what this thread is about.

[Mr Right Wing]

Seeker79, on 20 May 2012 - 04:05 PM, said:

Most people that fall asleep and wake up don't remember their dreams. What does that say? Defiantly not that they weren't dreaming. We know this as fact.

If we were to use the unsupported materialist assumption that an NDE is a dream, why is it now different that dreams not remembered still exist but NDEs not remembered dont?  There just dreams right?!?!? Seems to me like there are some extremely biased games being played, and completely erroneous assumptions.

I have not made one signle thing up. Not one.

There is and always has been documented NDEs where consciousness without brain activitiy has been proved - http://www.near-deat...m/evidence.html

The problem is it threatens some peoples world view so they convince themselves there is no evidence.

[Seeker79]

Mattshark, on 20 May 2012 - 04:06 PM, said:

Yes that is exactly what you are doing.

How so?