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'Reasonable force' or 'murder'?

burglars shot reasonable force murder

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#76    voidla

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 02:08 AM

"Fearful of other recent break-ins, he shot Schaeffel when he came into view.
When the teenager tumbled down the stars, Smith shot him in the face as he lay on the floor, looking up.
'I want him dead,' the complaint quoted Smith as telling an investigator.
He dragged the body into his workshop and then sat in the chair, the complaint said. When Kifer began walking down the stairs, he shot her and she fell down the stairs.
He tried to shoot her again with his rifle, but the gun jammed and Kifer laughed at him, the complaint noted.
'If you're trying to shoot somebody and they laugh at you, you go again,' Smith, 64, told investigators, according to a criminal complaint filed Monday.
He then shot her several times in the chest with a .22-caliber revolver, dragged her next to her cousin, and with as she gasped for air, fired a shot under her chin 'up into the cranium'."

How the **** is it justified to shoot someone in the face after you've already rendered them incapable of movement?
How is it justified to sit a someone next to their dead relative, shoot her so she gasps for air, then shoot her again so she is murdered?

No where does he say he asked what they wanted.


He shot them as soon as he saw them. No questions asked. They didn't harm him, they didn't steal anything.
We only have speculation they may have broken in other times, we have no proof at all they did except this one time.
There is no justification in how far he went.


Edited by voidla, 29 November 2012 - 02:10 AM.

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#77    aztek

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 02:11 AM

View PostProfessor Buzzkill, on 28 November 2012 - 11:57 PM, said:

The most common .22 ammo is 950 FPS. Sound barrier is 1079 FPS. You can get high powered ammo up to 1250 FPS. The type of ammo is not specified. I have become interested in shooting recently and can safely say i don't use or need hearing protection with a .22 rifle and hence it is not loud enough to frighten anyone away. In fact, you might not even recognize the sound as gun fire.
have you ever shot .22 indoors?

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#78    pallidin

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 02:12 AM

Yep, spot on, voidla. No justification for the extent this went to.

Edited by pallidin, 29 November 2012 - 02:13 AM.


#79    Professor Buzzkill

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 02:13 AM

View Postaztek, on 29 November 2012 - 02:11 AM, said:

have you ever shot .22 indoors?

On a range yes. It was nothing compared to the 9mm and .45 pistols that were going off right next to me.


#80    aztek

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 02:19 AM

View PostProfessor Buzzkill, on 29 November 2012 - 02:13 AM, said:

On a range yes. It was nothing compared to the 9mm and .45 pistols that were going off right next to me.

i figured that much.

it is not how it sounds inside the house, with no muffs, try it.

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#81    Odds

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 02:33 AM

This is nothing short of murder. He said he wanted him dead so he shot him in the face after the inital shot and him falling down the stairs, then shot the girl, and after she laughed at him, once again after an initial shot and her falling down the stairs, he then shot her multiple times in the chest.

Not saying one bit what these kids did was not reckless, disrespectful and dangerous, they certainly didn't need to die for it.

I agree with protecting yourself and your home, however our laws with guns are extremely strict in Australia and most of these sorts of cases are home owners usings knives or bats of they were in danger, so my thoughts may be different to those in the U.S. But this is so far beyond defense... As far as it seems, neither one even threw a punch or produced a weapon. That's murder in my book.

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#82    QuiteContrary

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 02:47 AM

View PostProfessor Buzzkill, on 29 November 2012 - 01:51 AM, said:

So fire a warning shot which lets the intruder know that your armed, and if he has a gun he'll use it. Doesn't sound like a safe option to me.

bolding mine

And if I shoot him first (no warnings), and he's an unarmed kid looking for a tv?

No thank you. I'll suffer with my consequences of a warning shot, even if it leaves my kids without a mom, if I felt it was the best and most prudent decision at the time.

I do see what you are saying. And in certain situations all of you would be exactly right, and I'd shoot the SOB, no warning, no discussion, period.

But for me, scenarios just are not that black and white every time and options are there in other cases.

I can stop a bear lumbering toward my camp by shooting him, or shooting around him, or just letting off firecrackers or making a lot of noise. However, if he is charging me or my kid, shooting him may be my best and only option. All animals are the same pretty much, even the human ones. It all depends...

Edited by QuiteContrary, 29 November 2012 - 02:49 AM.


#83    F3SS

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 02:50 AM

View PostOdds, on 29 November 2012 - 02:33 AM, said:

This is nothing short of murder. He said he wanted him dead so he shot him in the face after the inital shot and him falling down the stairs, then shot the girl, and after she laughed at him, once again after an initial shot and her falling down the stairs, he then shot her multiple times in the chest.

Not saying one bit what these kids did was not reckless, disrespectful and dangerous, they certainly didn't need to die for it.

I agree with protecting yourself and your home, however our laws with guns are extremely strict in Australia and most of these sorts of cases are home owners usings knives or bats of they were in danger, so my thoughts may be different to those in the U.S. But this is so far beyond defense... As far as it seems, neither one even threw a punch or produced a weapon. That's murder in my book.
I know a lot of Aussies like to go off on our gun laws but before you do(just incase you do) realize that Americans agree with you. This isn't the law or the norm. It was too many crazy people in the same place at the wrong time.

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#84    QuiteContrary

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 03:57 AM

View PostProfessor Buzzkill, on 29 November 2012 - 01:51 AM, said:

So fire a warning shot which lets the intruder know that your armed, and if he has a gun he'll use it. Doesn't sound like a safe option to me.

As I stated earlier, maybe I can say this with such confidence because I’ve been in a situation where it (threatening) worked for me.

Two men tried to break down my door, and I had no other exit. They kept body slamming it and one kept cussing “I’m gonna *** kill her”. (They weren’t after me, they had the wrong door)

I’ve never heard anyone angrier in my life. The door had no deadbolt or lock only a chain lock at the top. I had my two babies with me. I felt they were coming through any second.

I threatened them verbally with a .357. One of the men replied “Pull the trigger b*, pull the trigger.”

But despite his reply, they left while I was on a landline with security. So, I've no doubt a warning shot would have sent them running. And left none of us dead or even injured.

Had they kept coming? Yes, I would have shot them if I did not have time to gather my kids and lock all of us safely in the bathroom, until security arrived. The bathroom door was right by the door they were trying to break down, making it a hard decision in just a couple seconds time.

It was a terrifying juggling situation of total surprise, just a few seconds to respond, an unsecure door, and two little ones to decide how to gather out of harm’s way. But it worked.


#85    pallidin

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 09:49 AM

View PostQuiteContrary, on 29 November 2012 - 03:57 AM, said:

As I stated earlier, maybe I can say this with such confidence because I’ve been in a situation where it (threatening) worked for me.

Two men tried to break down my door, and I had no other exit. They kept body slamming it and one kept cussing “I’m gonna *** kill her”. (They weren’t after me, they had the wrong door)

I’ve never heard anyone angrier in my life. The door had no deadbolt or lock only a chain lock at the top. I had my two babies with me. I felt they were coming through any second.

I threatened them verbally with a .357. One of the men replied “Pull the trigger b*, pull the trigger.”

But despite his reply, they left while I was on a landline with security. So, I've no doubt a warning shot would have sent them running. And left none of us dead or even injured.

Had they kept coming? Yes, I would have shot them if I did not have time to gather my kids and lock all of us safely in the bathroom, until security arrived. The bathroom door was right by the door they were trying to break down, making it a hard decision in just a couple seconds time.

It was a terrifying juggling situation of total surprise, just a few seconds to respond, an unsecure door, and two little ones to decide how to gather out of harm’s way. But it worked.


Glad it worked-out OK.
With 2 little kids to protect, I might have unloaded the entire US Army at them(your gun), with a couple bullets left just in case.

Very few, if any, would ever blame anyone for taking extraordinary lethal measures to protect children.

Edited by pallidin, 29 November 2012 - 09:56 AM.


#86    libstaK

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 10:48 AM

View PostOdds, on 29 November 2012 - 02:33 AM, said:

This is nothing short of murder. He said he wanted him dead so he shot him in the face after the inital shot and him falling down the stairs, then shot the girl, and after she laughed at him, once again after an initial shot and her falling down the stairs, he then shot her multiple times in the chest.

Not saying one bit what these kids did was not reckless, disrespectful and dangerous, they certainly didn't need to die for it.

I agree with protecting yourself and your home, however our laws with guns are extremely strict in Australia and most of these sorts of cases are home owners usings knives or bats of they were in danger, so my thoughts may be different to those in the U.S. But this is so far beyond defense... As far as it seems, neither one even threw a punch or produced a weapon. That's murder in my book.
I agree there was distinct hatred and murder in what happened.  I cannot imagine the circumstance where the girl, having already heard shots fired and knowing her cousin could have been shot, then being shot herself AND falling down the stairs would then turn and laugh at the person holding the gun like "this was all so much fun going on" - absolute rubbish.

Basically, he has made the lamest excuse to justify what he did to her after that first shot that any person who knows they can have no excuse could ever come up with.

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#87    Odds

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 11:21 AM

View Post-Mr_Fess-, on 29 November 2012 - 02:50 AM, said:

I know a lot of Aussies like to go off on our gun laws but before you do(just incase you do) realize that Americans agree with you. This isn't the law or the norm. It was too many crazy people in the same place at the wrong time.

Not at all mate, it's not my place. Not my country.

I was just referring to this particular case.

My point about where i live was, we don't need guns, and not allowed without a hell of alot of trouble to get one, alot less people die from gun crimes here, whether justified or not.

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#88    Odds

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 11:23 AM

View PostlibstaK, on 29 November 2012 - 10:48 AM, said:

I agree there was distinct hatred and murder in what happened.  I cannot imagine the circumstance where the girl, having already heard shots fired and knowing her cousin could have been shot, then being shot herself AND falling down the stairs would then turn and laugh at the person holding the gun like "this was all so much fun going on" - absolute rubbish.

Basically, he has made the lamest excuse to justify what he did to her after that first shot that any person who knows they can have no excuse could ever come up with.

100% agree.

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#89    Bavarian Raven

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 03:22 PM

Quote

I agree there was distinct hatred and murder in what happened.  I cannot imagine the circumstance where the girl, having already heard shots fired and knowing her cousin could have been shot, then being shot herself AND falling down the stairs would then turn and laugh at the person holding the gun like "this was all so much fun going on" - absolute rubbish

Could she have been high on drugs though? :unsure2: That could explain the laughing...


#90    Rafterman

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 05:42 PM

View PostQuiteContrary, on 28 November 2012 - 11:11 PM, said:

Ricochet off what? What are you shooting, a bb gun? And what do you live in. Ricochet is a very unlikely possibility in a home, that would be my guess anyway.

And I better not miss the the perp if I were worried about ricochet.

Ricochets are unlikely, but what is likely is that your round will travel through the wall and into other areas of the house.  Which is exactly why hollow point rounds or shotguns are preferable for home defense.

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