From apes to humans

[Pickled~Tacos]

I have had a few recent conversations on evolution that completely confused me on other peoples views. Do you beleive in God, or do you beleive that out ancestors came from a primordial pool after the big bang?

Personally i beleive in a bit of both. I beleive that God created the universe and the big bang, and then he created apes and decided they needed an "upgrade" and created humans.

I was just curious about other peoples' beleifs.

[j6p]

LOL, I have no opinion on the evolution thing but I like your thinking. Either way it goes I can't see how God could get mad at you

[Seraphina]

The honest truth is, we'll never know exactly how life 'began'...however, I do think that a primordial soup creating the first amino acid, which in turn led to proteins, cells and so forth, is far more logical to believe than thinking there is somebody up there who created 'everything'.

I think, as humans, we're supposed to be challenging the world and our view on it...we're a curious species by nature, and religion was a product of primitive people trying to explain what they themselves couldn't. It was far easier for them to believe that there was a 'god' that made it rain, or made lightning, than to actually investigate anything with the limited knowledge of the world they had at the time.

We know far more about the world now than they did...yet it never fails to amaze me that some people still look back in time 10'000 years and actually take what people thought was the truth then over and above what modern, up to date minds are telling us now, especially since, in this day and age, things are actually investigated and proven before hand, rather than nothing but superstitious assumptions that created religion.

I believe in evolution I'm afraid...I used to be a little back and forth as far as god was concerned, but I've come to the conclusion that the bible is as much a mythology as Thor and Zeus. It just managed to survive longer.

[AndyThorley]

http://snopes.com/religion/chalk.htm#jackchick

[tendo]

i think God created everything, and directly created humans, as we are made in His image, then created a few animals and plants, and gave them the ability to adapt and evolve, but humans were all God, thats what i think.

[Kryso]

I can’t say I do or I don’t.

But one thing that puzzles me about evolution - take apes for example – is that evolution hinges on the theory that the next step in the evolutionary chain is more adapt at survival, and hence why the species before it died out! So if this is the case, and we came from apes, then why are they still around? And if the ape/monkey/whatever evolved into us, then where are the stages in the middle? Evolution takes the next step, so it seems illogical that the middle section of this step is missing, and we have the monkeys at one end (who should have disappeared, according to Dwain’s Theory) and us at the other!

[MoonFox]

I agree completely with Serafina.

and to Kryso, what I think about the humans evolving from monkeys and why there are still moneys is that it's probably more along the line of that monkeys/apes AND humans evolved from the same primate ancestor and HE is extinct. So we just all branched off from the same species and went seperate ways, we didn't evolve from teh same species of ape we have here today.

Eveything eventually comes from the same ancestor. It's an enormous tree with so many branches that split off in so many ways!

Dogs, wolves, raccoons, foxes, weasels, and bears are all related by the same ancestor that split off and evolved differently. Thats why we still have some 'in-between' looking wild animals like raccoon dogs.

I read somewhere that dolphins and horses each came from the same lines!

Evolution is a very amazing thing.

[Seraphina]

Moonfox speaks the truth.

We didn't evolve from apes in the sense of chimpanzee type creatures (maybe, back when we first appeared we looked something like that), but rather from the same common ancestor...it's also quite likely that chimpanzees are lower down the evolutionary ladder...it is actually quite amazing to look at chimpanzees and see how many of our own characteristics and behavour are mimiced in them.

Strictly speaking though, we all evolved from a prokaryotic cell floating in sludge So way way back in the mists of time, everyone's related to everything, from a boilogical standpoint.

[Engulf]

I know this is hard to believe but I've got this from a source that.......we didn't actually evolved from monkeys or chimps like we've thought so.We're actually.....some sort of a result of an experimental research by aliens called the Illojims (those blonde hair ones) and that we're the seventh civilization here on Earth already.I really dunno what to say here but.......if you'd connect to all those Sauroid reports saying that they're here to take thier homeland back,thier homeland being Earth and adding that we humans aren't suppose to be here at all.......I really have doubts here.I'm not saying this is entirely true but this one really confused me the first time I heard it as I'm not a sceptic.....

[Seraphina]

Okay my friend, I'm a firm believer that the most logical probability is probably the correct one...so let me ask you which is more logical...

That through the process of natural selection, we evolved from a creature not unlike our closest genetic relative, over the course of a few millions years, for which there is fossil evidence of the other version of 'humans' that came before modern man...

...Or that we were created in test tubes by a nation of space age snake people? The idea of which I believe came about from David Eike (not sure how to spell the second name), who suffers from a rather worrying brain condition after a sports injury led to substances from his bone marrow getting into his blood...whereupon he started telling everyone that the world leaders are shape shifting lizard men

[Engulf]

Aiks,I'm really confuse myself too .The first time I heard this theory,I was like .......really??But my head's full of probability,including the non-probable ones too .So.....I dunno ,perhaps this is indeed nothing but rubbish.I'd certainly hope we had evolved from the monkeys,and not from the hands of some alien.It's just....not in the syllabus

[Blood Angel]

Ok sera explain this "natural" evolution, the crocodile, which dates back to before the dinosaurs has been around ALOT longer than us, it took what maybe 100 million years (not sure on the exact age of the crocodile species) to achieve its evolutionary status, but it has taken man from the firt upright man to modern homo sapiens less than 1.5 million years to achieve intelligence. Why is it that a species that has been evolving since the dinosaurs not also evolved to a higher state. Explain the missing link between us and primates. Explain how in the space of 10,000 years we have changed from cave dwelling raw meat eating fur wearing dudes, to highly technologically sophisticated intelligence in that short space of time, bearing in mind that the earth has been around alot longer than we have. 10,000 years is a blink in the eye of the earth. To me thats sounds like highly accelerated evolution.

Now lets talk god, christian faith was first recorded in the hebrew language correct? and their name for GOD was Elohim, which in hebrew translates as "those from the sky" what could that mean i wonder, perhaps a alien civilisation did visit the planet and play with our genetic structure, causing highly accelerated evolution, and perhaps we called them god because they may have created us? God supposedly created us in his image correct? Thus shouldn't he be a human too?

i look forward to any comments. if anyone is confused i'll repost in a way you can understand.

[Seraphina]

The crocadile thing is easy enough to answer...reptiles have a far harder time adapting to a new environment than mammals do. The very same reptiles we're seeing now will probably remain unchanged for millions of years longer, because they're incapable of moving to a new niche...natural selection has to skip them over, because they're as specialised as they're going to get. Moving into another environment would likely kill them.

Why did man achieve intelligence so soon? Hard to say...apes, in general, are the most intelligent animals on the planet, however I do agree there's no obvious reason why we should have evolved in the direction of intelligence, while the other greater apes seem to have moved in the direction of muscle...I guess it's all down to the niches we inhabited.

The truth is, I don't know, and I'd rather not guess...however, evidence of human intelligence does far predate the hebrew language, and to base your entire arguement on that, which was written many, many thousands of years after we'd reached the stage of 'modern man', is perhaps a little silly, no?

We've just been blessed, through the slow process of natural selection, that greater intelligence was needed for our survival. We were the first animal to make tools, and remain the only animal that uses tools to make other tools (this is, in fact, the definition of mankind).

However...there's nothing 'accelerated' about it. While it's true anything remotely resembling humans physically only appeared a few million years ago, evolution has been going on for about a billion or so years...we're not some random anomaly, we're the apex of what nature's been moving towards all this time.

However, if you want to kick natural selection in the head, forget about adaptation, fossil records, or logic in general...then yeah, sure, aliens made us of some kind of galatic whim. Makes sense

[moe eubleck]

Im a hairless ape. I'll admit that its not as interesting as creationism or alien roots, but its the truth.

Ya want some proof of evolution? well look around you. See the cities that have sprang up? See the automobiles? Evolution is still happening!!

[Nxt2Hvn]

I agree with nuthinparanormal!!

[RaZenKane]

i agree with Seraphina, but i also believe in God, just do not really believe in the bible saying he created the earth in 7 days and created man from his own image, but i do believe in his existance.....but i like the first post, upgrade from ape LOL thats a good one

[MoonFox]

I think the best proof of evolution is DOGS.

But this is human-controlled evolution, where selctive breeding instead of natural selection drastically quickens the evolution process.

Humans befriended wolves a long time ago by sharing meat and hunting together. And then as time when on, by selectively breeding wolves humans eventually created hundreds of different breeds of dogs that each look and act differently.

By selective breeding for the type of work the dog would be used for, and the environemnt it'd live in, we force-evolved wolves into everything from Huskies to Shepherds to Chihuahuas.

All dogs genes go back to the wolf- In fact if you do a DNA test on a dog it comes up as Wolf! So dogs are really still wolves inside, just evolved by humans to look and act differently depending on what we needed the animal for.

Every instinct in dogs goes back to the wolf. The way herding dogs circle the sheep and hypnotize them into their pen. The way dogs turn in circles before laying down to 'flatten the leaves on the ground' even if its on a soft pillow.

That's why dog trainers usually study wolf behavior b/c thats what dogs are, modified wolves.

We are still 'making' new breeds today using selective breeding to alter appearance.

Evolution in nature works the same way, only it's a MUCH longer process b/c noone is deliberately controlling it like we do with our pets.

[Seraphina]

Dogs...cows...cats...in some countries even people

We've been selectivly breeding different animals for years for specialised purposes...in nature, it's also occured in finches in the galapigos (finches from different parts of the island are vastly different in characteristics from the others, because of the different environments they'd had to evolve into, though all can be traced back to a single, normal finch).

The finches might be a better example though, since it wasn't influenced by humans. The difference between selective breeding and evolution is that in selective breeding, humans choose the characteristics they want to be passed on...this also means that weaknesses are passed on with it (eg. arthitis in labradors)...while in evolution, nature chooses them by which creature is better suited to survive, and pass its characteristics on to the next generation.

Most of the animals we've bred wouldn't survive in the wild.

[tendo]

But one thing that puzzles me about evolution - take apes for example – is that evolution hinges on the theory that the next step in the evolutionary chain is more adapt at survival, and hence why the species before it died out! So if this is the case, and we came from apes, then why are they still around? And if the ape/monkey/whatever evolved into us, then where are the stages in the middle? Evolution takes the next step, so it seems illogical that the middle section of this step is missing, and we have the monkeys at one end (who should have disappeared, according to Dwain’s Theory) and us at the other!

well, according to the natural selction theory (darwin's theory, darwin didnt actually call it evolution, nor did he push God out of the eqation),it doesnt say that every evolution step will help the species. it just says it will change the species, for better or worse. and not all of the species have to do it...in its most basic terms, evolution is literally mutations in the DNA. and it could be caused by anything...just a random mutation, radioactivity...anything that would somewhat drastically change the anatomy or physiology of anything in the species. so if a group of japanese ppl all grew 2 more arms from the radiation at hiroshima, and they had children, and those children had 4 arms, and this stayed around in their family for a while, there would then be a four-arm gene in some humans. and depending on whether this gene is dominant or recessive, it may become more or less abundant, and probably getting more efficient in each generation, until they have 4 fully functional arms.

[Seraphina]

This is true...however, in nature, you'll find that the characteristics that are passed on are those that make the animal better equiped for survival. Evolution and natural selection are all part in parcel with the idea of 'survival of the fittest'.

Some characteristics are an anomaly...however the example you cite of some bizare four armed gene wouldn't be evolution, it would be a mutation...natural selection is the emphasis of a far more widespread (and natural) characteristic across a species...the ability to run faster, or greater physical strength...that stem from natural variation, not mutation from an outside source.

[Bruno]

Well folks, here's my opinion.

First of all, Darwin's Theory isn't bullet proof, it's like the name says: theory!

The general idea around it is assumed correct, but science has evolved ( ) a lot since then. I think that people still have a hard time thinking of humans as animals; or that in any given time, some ape that came down from a tree and gave origin to a species that explores the atom and the universe.

Some things you should consider: first of all, we come from a branch of beings that has usually a bigger brain volume than any other. As mammals, we have (we as all the mammals in the planet), let's say, a better notion of ourselves has conscient beings, which gives us a bigger ability of considering others like us conscient as well. At different levels of conscience, of course. That's why mammals have such intrincate family bonds, the need to live in societies, the need of acceptance by others, rituals, language, etc.

Then, there is an interesting thing. Usually species that evolve from others tend to compete for the same basic things, like food and territory. That's one of the reasons why evolving species come from disapearing ones. They both need the same, but the evolving one is better equiped. Sometimes species that disapear often go away in a blaze of glory, leaving no offspring. Sometimes species (like roaches) don't have the need for radical changes because they are natural survivors. Gators have undergone some changes over the eras: they're smaller than they were. That usually happens to all the species.

I believe that mankind originated from an evolutionary path followed by various species of ... i don't know the specific term in english, but if anyone knows portuguese what i'm trying to say is hominideo.

There is the proof that different species lived in the same time, like Neanderthal and Sapiens, in Europe. And that the intervention of certain species gave origin to the disapearing of others.

Like someone posted here (sorry, can't remember your name ), we had the tools for a larger step in evolution than any other.

We used our hands to build tools, we used our memories to pass experiences as knowledge, we used fire for our purposes (and that was very important), we developed strong social relations based on codes, we developed language (that some animals also have, but not at a written level).

But we still are animals. There should be no doubt about it; the simple fact that we forget it makes us disrispect all the others that also own the planet.

[moe eubleck]

Dont be so quick to place humanity on top of the evolution chart . You arent going to see any polar bears living in heated buildings. Why? Because unlike us, most animals have already developed a means to survive in thier habitats. Humans are fragile. The only reason our brains have developled is because it was the only chance we had for survival. That by no means puts us on top.

I have heard that the average sea tortiose has a longer life span than the average human. nuff said.

I agree with Bruno in that we are just animals.

[Seraphina]

lol...um...well that's hardly a theory, nobody needs to agree with it, it's a biological fact.

All organisms on the planet are either an animal or a plant...I know which I'd rather be

And it's true what you say to an extent...we're far from the most specialised animals on the planet, but we are the only animal that's evolved the level of intelligence where we don't need to be...we can alter our own environment to suit us, rather than the other way round.

[DrStrangelove]

Perhaps God used evolution to cultivate humanity. I certainly know we don't look like what we did before the flood. But then again that is because of insest. If one mans family (noah) cultivated humanity with their insest for centeries we are bound to look different.

[Xenojjin]

Its pretty apperant to me that god exists as I am actually a christian ( oooh a psion a christian ? Yes , psions can be christians . ) It actually states somewhere in the bible that god gave creatures the ability to evolve . But never actually turn into a whole new species . ( I have no idea where it syas this i just know it does , the bible is huge so cut me some slack ) . For example , we know about breeding such as dogs breeding to create new breeds . But they still STAY DOGS . to date we have never seen or witnessed anything close to an entire new species being created through evolution , and the idea of mammals coming from reptiles is plain stupid since we would still contain some traces of reptillian DNA .