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Prof. Theodor Gomperz: Atlantis could be real

gomperz atlantis plato

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#31    jaylemurph

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 08:05 PM

View PostProclus, on 24 May 2013 - 11:59 PM, said:

Classics and Philology is a science, at least in German speaking countries. Maybe Anglo-Saxons consider it to be hocus-pocus? Why then professors teaching this hocus-pocus at universities? A definition of science which excludes most important parts of research only because you can't "measure" or "calculate" things sucks. Call it whatever you want, important is: It is rational and reasonable. Not just "opinions" - how crazy is this? You don't like the humanities, don't you?!

As I pointed out above, scientists use regular, defined methodology (see  below) because they deal with testable, repeatable facts. People who study the humanities, including historians and philologists, do not deal with testable, repeatable facts. They deal with human beings and their works and deeds, which are not logical, rational, repeatable or testable. They cannot be measured and calculated. They are not quantatative, so they are not science, and the scientific method is not particularly useful for them in gaining or assessing information.

That does not mean such studies are not rational or reasonable, however, nor did I at any point suggest it was. Nor did I suggest it was hocus-pocus.

Nor did I in any way suggest I do not like the humanities. In point of fact, I am a student and teacher of the humanities. (As a result of which, perhaps, comes my readiness to define and defend what they are and are not to people who are unclear on that fact.) I just want to point out here your process -- you are making an unsubstantiated claim based on incomplete evidence. This is neither good science nor humanities criticism.

I suppose this issue might be a quirk of the German language; maybe German Classicists /do/ call themselves scientists. But I've never seen Aby Warburg or or Fritz Saxl or Hermann Diel refer to themselves as /scientists/ before. None of the German-speaking researchers or writers I know (but I don't claim to have that wide a circle of German acquaintance) call themselves scientists. Certainly, none of my English-speaking colleagues do so.

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An intolerant prejudice. You surely know the academic discussions on Platonic Myths and that they could contain a core of truth, sometimes? Or don't you? Could it be that you have no clue about what you are talking?

It's niether intolerent nor prejudiced. It's a verifiable statement made by first-hand observation of a field I can claim reasonable familiarity with. If I said most historians are humans, would that be an intolerent prejudice, too*? I defy you to come up with one respected, peer-reviewed publication in any of the humanities to suggest the literal existence of Atlantis as it appears in Plato's Republic.

I would argue that it is clear that the Republic Plato discusses in that eponymous work is clearly ficitional. I'm not aware of the any poets actually being thrown out en masse from Athens at the very least. It is used a metaphor, as is Atlantis, which is presented as the anti-Republic. It may well be based on the distorted reflections of a real place, but using exactly your logic, because London is a real place used in the Harry Potter books, then everything in those novels is equally real. And that's ridiculous on its face. You're certainly not providing any sort of framework to separate that which is fictional from that which is real, so you're not making any sort of useful statement about the reality of Atlantis.

As for your suggestion I don't know what I'm talking about? Again, you're making an unwarranted assumption based on faulty or completely inextant information. That makes twice in one post.

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Hopefully you are aware that Atlantis research is a very patient science, information from 65 years ago can be very helpful. Therefore academic articles of this time are still cited in current scientific literature - ah, you are surely aware of this. And "fact-mining" is the very beginning of every science. How can anyone state anything on Atlantis without "fact-mining"? Do you have a problem with "fact-mining"?

Again, in the first place, I'm not aware of any formal, rigorous, profession study of Atlantis at all. In the second place, old academic articles may be used to prove or illustrate old information or old sources in current academic research, but they do not take the place of discussing current academic information and research and are not used in place of such information or research. They are only used in places where they would take the place is instances where there is no current academic research. Like Atlantis.  Why is there no current information or research? Because no serious academic is doing that research or writing.

And, in point of fact, fact-mining is not the beginning of scientific research. Observation is. It's a well known process, even to non-scientists like me. First observation, then theorization to explain that observatin, then repeatable, controlled experimentation to confirm or disprove the original theory. Fact-mining does not enter into it. You are mistaken that fact-mining comes into science.

You might have been better off suggesting fact-mining as a part of humanities research. It's not called fact-mining, though, it's called "research". And research is done to amass background knowledge of a subject. The results of that research lead to a formation of a thesis, but the thesis is always a product of the research and never vice-versa. Your 'fact-mining' is the opposite of this process: the attempt to find acontextual data to support a thesis that has already been created. It is the opposite humanities research. So, yes, I do have a problem with it.

Fact-mining is neither an established part of scientific or humanities research: this part of your post shows a faulty conclusion reached by using faulty data.

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Surely you realize that your argument is nonsense because Brandenstein is far from the "canals on Mars" level and everybody knows without me talking about it that there is opposition.

Why, exactly, is my argument "non-sense"? I urge to actually make an argument rather than just dismissing because it's inconvenient to you.

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Would you please be so kind to put on your friendly face? Again I did not want to claim anything special but just wanted to give this forum's readers the opportunity to read something they do not read every day. Is this forbidden, here? Hopefully not.

Hey, quit trying to put incorrect and insulting words in my mouth or trying to say I believe things without the slightest basis for it, and I'll stop picking apart your logic.

You do understand this is a /discussion/ board, right? As in we discuss things here. We debate them. If you want to publish something without hearing any contrary opinions, you can use the blog function available through this site. You can post whatever you want and moderate the comments directly, so you need never her any dissenting viewpoints and let your appreciation of your own genius never go unchallenged.

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Ha, you even didn't realize that the provided article on Brandenstein contains criticism on Brandenstein's thesis *laugh*
You just hacked into your keyboard without thinking: that's your "science", am I right?

I never read the article. I never claimed to. My concern was the way you used the article and (latterly) the claims you made about what I knew and believed, and which I have addressed here. As I have made clear, I am no scientist not have any desire to be.

As concerns your own methodology, it appears based on several instances, to be unwarranted speculation based on bad or incomplete evidence. That hardly inspires confidence either in what you say directly or the information you chose to present.

--Jaylemurph

*My dog, Guyon, digs up old things that smell interesting to him and then sniffs them, so he does both investigation, research and evaluation. That makes him at least as thorough as a lot of undergraduates, so I think he does qualify as an historian.

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#32    Proclus

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 08:36 PM

@jaylemurph:

> Hey, quit trying to put incorrect and insulting words in my mouth

> You do understand this is a /discussion/ board, right? As in we discuss things here. We debate them.

> I never read the article. I never claimed to.

> Again, in the first place, I'm not aware of any formal, rigorous, profession study of Atlantis at all.

I have nothing to add :-)
I suggest to end this "debate" here.

_

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#33    Abramelin

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 11:09 PM

View PostProclus, on 26 May 2013 - 08:36 PM, said:

I suggest to end this "debate" here.


You announced that a couple of times already, Proclus....


.

Edited by Abramelin, 26 May 2013 - 11:15 PM.


#34    Abramelin

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 11:14 PM

Jaylemurph, I must say I did like your post, the way you very clearly explained your point of view,

You say philology is not real science because it is not based on 'hard facts'. That is why it is called a 'soft science', btw.

But as far as I understand it, it IS (also) based on logic and not on fantasy or on reasoning to come to a preferred conclusion.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 26 May 2013 - 11:16 PM.


#35    jaylemurph

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 11:32 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 26 May 2013 - 11:14 PM, said:

Jaylemurph, I must say I did like your post, the way you very clearly explained your point of view,

You say philology is not real science because it is not based on 'hard facts'. That is why it is called a 'soft science', btw.

But as far as I understand it, it IS (also) based on logic and not on fantasy or on reasoning to come to a preferred conclusion.


.

I'm certainly not suggesting philology is not rigorous, reasoned study. However, it is ultimately based on words created by people -- logic and reason may well act as an excellent guide, but in the end, it cannot be an absolute in the way it is in hard sciences.

It's interesting; philology is not really a current term in American studies (although several decades ago, it was). While its principles still are very much in use, it's more or less been subsumed under the aegis of other, more specialized fields -- Classics Studies, mainly, Linguistics, English studies or Cultural Studies. There used to be several academic journals dedicated to the field, only one of which, the American Journal of Philology, is still published. For me, it always has the fussy air of the 19th Century to it.

--Jaylemurph

Edited by jaylemurph, 26 May 2013 - 11:33 PM.

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#36    DieChecker

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 11:33 PM

The easiest thing to do is stop Posting. Then the thread will die a natural death... :innocent:

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#37    docyabut2

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 10:39 AM

What most forget it was greek poem by Solon,  based on a Egyptain tale. Atlantis was most likey about Crete and Thera.


#38    Mario Dantas

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 05:35 PM

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and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is continent. Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia.

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But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, the sea. For which reason the sea in those parts is impassable and impenetrable, because there is a shoal of mud in the way; and this was caused by the subsidence of the island.
http://classics.mit....to/timaeus.html

Edited by Mario Dantas, 27 May 2013 - 05:36 PM.

1. Catalog of Images
https://picasaweb.google.com/106047243612755133722

2. Was Atlantis in Greenland?
http://a7lan7is.blogspot.com

#39    cormac mac airt

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 06:22 PM

View Postdocyabut2, on 27 May 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

What most forget it was greek poem by Solon,  based on a Egyptain tale. Atlantis was most likey about Crete and Thera.

What some willingly ignore is that there is no evidence that there ever was an Egyptian tale on which to base a poem about.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#40    Papagiorgio

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 12:55 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 26 May 2013 - 06:02 AM, said:

I don't believe that Plato thought Atlantis was a real place. What I do believe is that Plato drew on 4 or 5 real life places to build his example city for his Dialogs. Santorini/Thera, Cadiz in Spain, several cities that sank due to earthquakes.... all add up to equal Atlantis.

Just like in the comic books Superman lives in Metropolis, yet no real Metropolis exists, but no one has a problem identifying the fictional city as New York.
Metropolis is Chicago. Gotham is New York.

I'm just saying.

#41    Mario Dantas

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 06:12 PM

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1. Catalog of Images
https://picasaweb.google.com/106047243612755133722

2. Was Atlantis in Greenland?
http://a7lan7is.blogspot.com

#42    jaylemurph

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 06:15 PM

View PostPapagiorgio, on 28 May 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

Metropolis is Chicago. Gotham is New York.

Nah... Metropolis is New York. The Statue of Liberty is in Manhattan Bay, after all. I can't remember who said it, but Metropolis is basically Midtown on a sunny Spring afternoon and Gotham City is Hell's Kitchen on a rainy January night.

--Jaylemurph

"... amongst the most obstinate of our opinions may be classed those which derive from discussions in which we affect to search for the truth, while in reality we are only fortifying prejudice."     -- James Fenimore Cooper, The Pathfinder

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#43    Proclus

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 06:36 PM

View PostPapagiorgio, on 28 May 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

Metropolis is Chicago. Gotham is New York.

Hm, and what about Brandenstein's thesis that such historicizing novels developed only later and nobody would have understood a Gotham-like construction in Plato's time? And, please, do not forget: Brandenstein is an expert in the field.
http://www.atlantis_...nstein_engl.htm

_

Edited by Proclus, 28 May 2013 - 06:41 PM.

Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place: www.Atlantis-Scout.de!

#44    jaylemurph

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 07:51 PM

View PostProclus, on 28 May 2013 - 06:36 PM, said:

Hm, and what about Brandenstein's thesis that such historicizing novels developed only later and nobody would have understood a Gotham-like construction in Plato's time? And, please, do not forget: Brandenstein is an expert in the field.
http://www.atlantis_...nstein_engl.htm

_

First of all, I think your link is broken, so I can't actually confirm what Brandenstein (allegedly) said or not.

Secondly, Plato was writing well after the the advent of drama. Seeing as how people didn't leave the theatre running for their lives and preparing for war against the Persians after seeing Aeschylus' play of the same name, I think we can safely say the Ancient Greeks were able to understand fiction as fiction -- even historical fiction.

And as I've pointed out before, Brandenstein was an expert a /century/ ago. He's not in any way expressing current opinions or academic consensus in any field.

--Jaylemurph

*Nor did they think Odeipus was really at Thebes, looking for a cure for plague when they saw Oedipus Rex.

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#45    Proclus

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 08:23 PM

View Postjaylemurph, on 28 May 2013 - 07:51 PM, said:

First of all, I think your link is broken, so I can't actually confirm what Brandenstein (allegedly) said or not.

Secondly, Plato was writing well after the the advent of drama. Seeing as how people didn't leave the theatre running for their lives and preparing for war against the Persians after seeing Aeschylus' play of the same name, I think we can safely say the Ancient Greeks were able to understand fiction as fiction -- even historical fiction.

And as I've pointed out before, Brandenstein was an expert a /century/ ago. He's not in any way expressing current opinions or academic consensus in any field.

--Jaylemurph

*Nor did they think Odeipus was really at Thebes, looking for a cure for plague when they saw Oedipus Rex.

You haven't got the point.
Did the Athenians accept that the plays presented invented history as history? I don't think so.
Either real history presented as such, or myth and invention presented as such.
But not the confusion of both.

http://www.atlantis-...nstein_engl.htm

Forget your "century ago" and "academic consensus", as arguments this is worth not a penny, besides the fact that it is wrong.

But you stopped insulting me, how great is this?

_

Edited by Proclus, 28 May 2013 - 08:27 PM.

Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place: www.Atlantis-Scout.de!





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