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[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood


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#1381    Abramelin

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 11:20 PM

Puzz, I read your post about the Prussian/ Aesti (one page back), and although I agree with most of it, i dont agree with what you said about the Phrygians and Priam.

Anyway, I found a bit more.

From this online book ( HERE ) I made a screenshot of an interesting page :

Posted Image

And read what Tacitus had to say about the language of these 'Pruteni' or Aesti...


And another interesting bit about the old Prussians:

Is it all Vikings where Scandinavians? Actually not. In stony Scandinavia wasn't enough population to conquer so many lands of West Europe and even to enrich them by new population … . It was possible (to conquer WE) just because the centre of Viking movement where Prussia-Lithuania-Kuronia-Gotland -  lands chronicles described as the Sarmatia Europea … .

Russian Primary Chronicle (Chronicle of Nestor or Kiev Chronicle , Russian Povest vremennykh let “Tale of Bygone Years” 1040-1118 CE), the Rus were a group of "Varangians," possibly of Prussian origin, who had a leader named RuRiks. Rus appears to be derived from the baltic word for land/island, * Russitten, later Rusne, which in turn comes from Baltic/Prussian usenti, Rusinti a word associated with offering, sacrifice, to burn are fire for Gods. Varangijans possibly comes from Prussian word ‘Vytingis’/‘Witing’ (Slavic nations latter transformed it to ‘Vitiazj’), ‘a knight’. Even some Russian chronics telling stories about Varangians Prussian origin:  


http://www.lietuvos....ai/vikingai.htm


Oh boy, and here is something more:


The Vistula Lagoon (Polish: Zalew Wiślany; Russian: Калининградский залив or Kaliningradskiy Zaliv; German: Frisches Haff; Lithuanian: Aistmarės) is a fresh water lagoon on the Baltic Sea separated from Gdańsk Bay by the Vistula Spit. It is sometimes known as the Vistula Bay or Vistula Gulf. The modern German name, Frisches Haff, is derived from an earlier form, Friesisches Haff.[1] Both this term and the earlier Polish name Zatoka Fryska[2] translate "Frisian Bay". In historical contexts, Frisches Haff can also refer to the Oder Lagoon.[1]

http://en.wikipedia..../Vistula_Lagoon

++++++++++

And to Alewyn:

I think that Wralda's Sea is not the Atlantic but actually the North Sea. One of the reasons is that a 1000 years ago the North Sea was called Mare Frisia.. because it was dominated by the Frisian seafarers/pirates. You will remember that the OLB says that Wralda's Sea was only for Frya's people, no one else was allowed to sail there.

Just like the Mare Frisia, or Frisian Sea, was only for the Frisians for centuries.

Edited by Abramelin, 24 October 2010 - 11:26 PM.


#1382    The Puzzler

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 11:28 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 24 October 2010 - 10:05 PM, said:

Oh really?

From your post 1369:

so that besides the small rivers we had twelve large rivers given us by Wr-alda to keep our land moist, and to show our seafaring men the way to his sea.


==

5. Opposite Denamark and Juttarland we had colonies and a burgh-femme. Thence we obtained copper and silver, as well as tar and pitch, and some other necessaries.
Comment:
Here we clearly see that the Baltic was not one of their borders. They had colonies on the other side of the Baltic.


Oh really? Opposite Denmark and Jutland is south Sweden, or Skenland as the OLB calls it. That doesn't contradcit that the Baltic is the eastern border.



The Aster Sea is the eastern border, in the direction of the morning, the Middel Sea is the western border, in the direction of the evening. You say the Aster Sea is the Black Sea, and that this Middel Sea is the Mediterranean. That would make Frya's Empire quite tiny...well, that's according to the maps I have.


==


Comments:
1. Here the OLB clearly says “Eastward”. The Baltic, however, is North to North-North-East from the Netherlands or central Europe. The only sea that lies in an easterly direction is the Black Sea.


Who said we must look from the Netherlands?? It's rather obvious they talk from the northern edge of Europe as a whole, the coastal area from the Frisian Middel Sea in the west to the Baltic in the east.

I would like to see where in history the Black Sea is called Aster Sea or something similar. To me (and about every other person than you who wrote about the OLB) it's obvious the OLB means Ost Sea/ East Sea/ Baltic.

That later in the OLB the Baltic is called Balda Sea is no proof; it only suggests the OLB name changed into what is now used in English speaking countries.


Aster? Might mean  sea of the star, or a star sea, meaning a morning star - the sea the morning star sits over. No where can I find that aster means EAST.

Not to say it's not in the East but I don't think it actually means East Sea.

Here some food for thought:

The Black Sea got its name from the Ottoman Turks.'Kara (Black)' denotes 'North' in Medieval Turkish, as in Kara Denizi- Kara Sea north of Siberian Yakut Turks, similar to Black Sea. In Turkish 'Red' denotes south as in Kizil Deniz, Red Sea to the south of Anatolia, while 'Ak'-White denotes west. The old name for the Aegean and the Mediterranean combined in Anatolian Turkish is "Akdeniz" -the White Sea-; although in contemporary Turkish, Akdeniz denotes only the Mediterranean Sea as now the northern part of the Mediterranean is called the Aegean Sea following its Western name. During the Ottoman times this was not the case as the Aegean was called the Sea of Islands -Adalar Denizi referring to the 12 islands laying between Greece and Anatolia.

The Black Sea is one of four seas named in English after common color terms — the others being the Red Sea, the White Sea and the Yellow Sea.


Black = North
Red = south
White = west

Yellow = east ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea

But, yes, the East Sea could be the Baltic, if named if you were West of it, in Denmark.

The Turks named the Black Sea to equate to the word North.

The Black Sea therefore is really the North Sea. (not in the OLB, just in general)

What??? Unless you knew who the sea was named by you would not really understand why the Black Sea really equates to North Sea.


If I called the Black Sea the North Sea, you'd think I was mad.


Brain still ticking on this whole subject.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#1383    Abramelin

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 11:38 PM

Alewyn already quoted me about this, but I will repeat it again:

In Germanic languages, except English, East Sea is used: Afrikaans (Oossee), Danish (Østersøen), Dutch (Oostzee), German (Ostsee), Icelandic and Faroese (Eystrasalt), Norwegian (Østersjøen), and Swedish (Östersjön). In Old English it was known as Ostsæ.
In addition, Finnish, a Baltic-Finnic language, has calqued the Swedish term as Itämeri "East Sea", disregarding the geography (the sea is west of Finland), though understandably since Finland was a part of Sweden from Middle Ages until 1809.


http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Baltic_Sea

Check some of these names, please.


Aster = Oster = East.

The OLB mentions 'in the direction of the morning' or something. Thats EAST to me...

.

Edited by Abramelin, 24 October 2010 - 11:40 PM.


#1384    The Puzzler

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 11:45 PM

The White Sea would have been the Mediterranean to the Turks, as it was WEST of them.

No wonder everyone is confused.

To the Europeans it was the Middle Sea, in the middle of the earth - mediterranean - middle terrain.

So it's really important imo to figure out who named these seas and where they were situated when they were named.

I agree Abe the North Sea sounds like W'ralda's Sea to me.

I told you those Frisians were at the Vistula!!

Rusenas - from the islands, Baltic islanders.  (hehe)

Russian Primary Chronicle (Chronicle of Nestor or Kiev Chronicle , Russian Povest vremennykh let “Tale of Bygone Years” 1040-1118 CE), the Rus were a group of "Varangians," possibly of Prussian origin, who had a leader named RuRiks. Rus appears to be derived from the baltic word for land/island, * Russitten, later Rusne, which in turn comes from Baltic/Prussian usenti, Rusinti a word associated with offering, sacrifice, to burn are fire for Gods. Varangijans possibly comes from Prussian word ‘Vytingis’/‘Witing’ (Slavic nations latter transformed it to ‘Vitiazj’), ‘a knight’. Even some Russian chronics telling stories about Varangians Prussian origin:


To burn fire to Gods, sacrificers.

That's fine to not agree with Priam and Paris being relative to beloved and free, but I think it does. I think there's a whole circle from Northern Europe, into Anatolia and back to the Mediterranean.

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#1385    Abramelin

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 11:50 PM

I am not confused, lol.

http://en.wikipedia....rg/wiki/Ä’ostre

And read about that radiant spirit of the dawn...


#1386    The Puzzler

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 11:56 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 24 October 2010 - 11:38 PM, said:

Alewyn already quoted me about this, but I will repeat it again:

In Germanic languages, except English, East Sea is used: Afrikaans (Oossee), Danish (Østersøen), Dutch (Oostzee), German (Ostsee), Icelandic and Faroese (Eystrasalt), Norwegian (Østersjøen), and Swedish (Östersjön). In Old English it was known as Ostsæ.
In addition, Finnish, a Baltic-Finnic language, has calqued the Swedish term as Itämeri "East Sea", disregarding the geography (the sea is west of Finland), though understandably since Finland was a part of Sweden from Middle Ages until 1809.


http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Baltic_Sea

Check some of these names, please.


Aster = Oster = East.

The OLB mentions 'in the direction of the morning' or something. Thats EAST to me...

.
I agree the sea is East in direction from Europe, as it does say in the direction of morning but I dunno if ASTer really equates to EAST er.

I can see plenty of OST as East but no AST as East as obvious as it seems. The Aster Sea imo does not equate the the word EAST SEA even though it is in the East, the direction of morning. It equates to sea of the morning star if anything, to me.

If you can link me to some sort of etymology that says AST equates to East that would be good.  That's not Ost.

The word east is derived from the name of one of the four dwarves in Norse mythology, Norðri, Suðri, Austri and Vestri, who each represented one of the directions of the world. The etymology of east is from a Proto-Indo-European language word for dawn, *hausos. Cf. Latin aurora and Greek eōs. Ēostre, a Germanic goddess of dawn, might have been a personification of both dawn and the cardinal points.

By convention, an ordinary terrestrial map is oriented so the right side is east. This convention dates from the Renaissance. Many medieval maps were oriented with the Orient (the East) east at the top, which is the different source of the verb orient.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East

Austri - Eostre - dawn. Just as I said morning star, dawn star, Venus. Hausos is the origin of the word East. Aurora and Eos (Dawn, mother of Phaethon)

So, there you go, the word AST does not equate to the word East but means East since the dawn is there. Austri means east because it means astra, the star of the dawn.

Hausos - ausos aust ast aster = Dawn, not necessarily East, as such.

Edited by The Puzzler, 25 October 2010 - 12:03 AM.

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#1387    The Puzzler

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 12:06 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 24 October 2010 - 11:50 PM, said:

I am not confused, lol.

http://en.wikipedia....rg/wiki/Ä’ostre

And read about that radiant spirit of the dawn...
Yes, this confirms it, it means dawn, eos, morning star. Austi is dawn star, not East in etymological terms.

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#1388    cormac mac airt

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 12:14 AM

Quote

If you can link me to some sort of etymology that says AST equates to East that would be good. That's not Ost.

What about this?

Quote

east

O.E. east "east, easterly, eastward," from P.Gmc. *aus-to-, *austra- "east, toward the sunrise" (cf. O.Fris. ast "east," aster "eastward," Du. oost O.S. ost, O.H.G. ostan, Ger. Ost, O.N. austr "from the east"), from PIE *aus- "to shine," especially "dawn" (cf. Skt. ushas "dawn," Gk. aurion "morning," O.Ir. usah, Lith. auszra "dawn," L. aurora "dawn," auster "south"), lit. "to shine." The east is the direction in which dawn breaks. For theory of shift in sense in Latin, see Australia. Meaning "the eastern part of the world" (from Europe) is from c.1300. Fr. est, Sp. este are borrowings from M.E., originally nautical. Cold War use of East for "communist states" first recorded 1951. Natives of eastern Germany and the Baltics were known as easterlings 16c.-18c. The east wind in Biblical Palestine was scorching and destructive (cf. Ezek. xvii.10); in New England it is bleak, wet, unhealthful. East End of London so called by 1846; East Side of Manhattan so called from 1882; East Indies (India and Southeast Asia) so called 1590s to distinguish them from the West Indies.

Online Etymology Dictionary

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt, 25 October 2010 - 12:19 AM.

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#1389    The Puzzler

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 12:21 AM

So, in that case the Aster Sea could be the Baltic Sea as it is where the dawn would be seen from Denmark.

North Sea = Wraldas Sea

Baltic Sea = Aster Sea

Eastward our boundary went to the extremity of the Aster Sea, and westwards to the Middel Sea; so that besides the small rivers we had twelve large rivers given us by Wr-alda to keep our land moist, and to show our seafaring men the way to his sea.


Keeping in mind the Orient - east was up the top of maps until the Renaissance, it could be here that it means eastward - north and westwards could be south on the map.

That could essentially place the East in the North if the etymologies are different.

The dawn star - aster does not exactly mean EAST. It means the direction of morning.

The Aster Sea could therefore be in the North and the Mediterranean in the South on a map with East at the top......I think.

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#1390    The Puzzler

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 12:26 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 25 October 2010 - 12:14 AM, said:

What about this?



Online Etymology Dictionary

cormac
Yep, I worked it out, east means austra - star of the dawn, which happens to be in the East.

I live in Australia, it's not because the country is in the East - it's because we live under the southern stars. We are in the South but our countries name really is relative to the same word star - aster - austi - it's not Eastralia, it's really star stralia if anything.

the word east comes from star only because the main star of the time, the dawn star, eos, was in the morning direction, which became known as East, the word East comes from the word star not from a direction. Chicken or egg? Aster means star first, east second.

Silly me, that link would have been the first I would have taken but I forgot to put east in it...good info, I see O.F is Ast for east but it would come from austi, so that means to me, we can find early Greek in Northern Europe.

Edited by The Puzzler, 25 October 2010 - 12:28 AM.

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#1391    The Puzzler

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 12:41 AM

Hang on, I just noticed Auster as south. I mean I know Australia is Southern Land but the austra always led me to think about stars and I know there is a connection somewhere.

O.E. east "east, easterly, eastward," from P.Gmc. *aus-to-, *austra- "east, toward the sunrise" (cf. O.Fris. ast "east," aster "eastward," Du. oost O.S. ost, O.H.G. ostan, Ger. Ost, O.N. austr "from the east"), from PIE *aus- "to shine," especially "dawn" (cf. Skt. ushas "dawn," Gk. aurion "morning," O.Ir. usah, Lith. auszra "dawn," L. aurora "dawn," auster "south"),

austra east toward the sunrise - hmm, australia - southern land.
So, austra can mean south.


It's not East land by any means, it's south land, in the east?...

austr = from the east

auster = south

with reference to the "hot" south wind that blows into Italy. Thus auster "(hot) south wind," metaphorically extended to "south."
http://www.etymonlin...?term=Australia


See, Australia is only Southern Land in Latin.

It would translate to land of the dawn star imo in Frisian. Since English and Frisian are so close, the aust in Australia would not mean south to anyone who was not using an Italian based language.

Terra Australis - land of the south

So, aust(er) in modern word Australia does not mean stars at all, we are under the Southern Cross too. It's a corrupted Northern European word for East, dawn.


The Latin sense shift in australis, if it is indeed the same word other IE languages use for east (see aurora), for which Latin uses oriens (see orient), is perhaps it is based on a false assumption about the orientation of Italy, "with shift through 'southeast' explained by the diagonal position of the axis of Italy" [Buck]; cf. Walde, Alois, "Lateinisches etymologisches Wörterbuch," 3rd. ed., vol. 1, p.87; Ernout, Alfred, and Meillet, Alfred, "Dictionnaire étymologique de la langue latine," 2nd. ed., p.94. Or perhaps the connection is more ancient, and from PIE root *aus- "to shine," source of aurora, which also produces words for "burning," with reference to the "hot" south wind that blows into Italy. Thus auster "(hot) south wind," metaphorically extended to "south."

http://www.etymonlin...?term=Australia


That tells us there the confusion, from PIE, to shine, like stars - burning, to hot south wind, then south comes from that.

Australia then, is just like the OLB words, it seems Latin but underlying it is probably a Northen European meaning.

Added link.

Edited by The Puzzler, 25 October 2010 - 12:53 AM.

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#1392    cormac mac airt

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 12:50 AM

Quote

I see O.F is Ast for east but it would come from austi, so that means to me, we can find early Greek in Northern Europe.

No it wouldn't, as the etymology I linked says 'aurion', not 'austi'. Chicken or egg quibbling aside, it still means 'east' as opposed to 'north', 'south' or 'west'.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#1393    The Puzzler

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 01:51 AM

OK, so Australia.

east
O.E. east "east, easterly, eastward," from P.Gmc. *aus-to-, *austra- "east, toward the sunrise" (cf. O.Fris. ast "east," aster "eastward,"


Asterix, a star *  Cartoon character from Amorica, Gaul.

Maybe the Aster Sea is the White Sea. Called the West Sea = White by Turks (west from Turkey)

East from Denmark and the extremity of the probably area of the Frisians along the North coastline.


Balda Sea - Baltic
Aster Sea - White Sea
Wralda's Sea - North Sea
Middel Sea - Mediterranean

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Sea

In Northern Europe, over the White Sea is where the dawn would come from.

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#1394    The Puzzler

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 01:59 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 25 October 2010 - 12:50 AM, said:

No it wouldn't, as the etymology I linked says 'aurion', not 'austi'. Chicken or egg quibbling aside, it still means 'east' as opposed to 'north', 'south' or 'west'.

cormac
Australia is named through error. Austra does not mean south, only to the people who termed the words Terra Australia. Latin.

I agree, though, aster does equate to east, only through that being the direction of morning, aurion. Aster in Greek is star.

It's all good.

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#1395    The Puzzler

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 03:17 AM

If it wasn't confusing enough how about this - North means South (down - under).

The word north is related to the Old High German nord, both descending from the Proto-Indo-European unit ner-, meaning "down" (or "under"). (Presumably a natural primitive description of its concept is "to the left of the rising sun".)
To the left of the rising sun.

If you were in Western Europe and you saw the sun rise in the side the morning approached, the North would be on the left.

Under, down = north.  Under the sun, down to the left, is North.


The actual words East and West come from Austri and Vestri.

The word west is derived from the name of one of the four dwarves in Norse mythology, Norðri, Suðri, Austri and Vestri, who each represented one of the directions of the world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West


If you placed the cross shape of the compass with North pointing toward the North Sea, east would sit about where the White Sea is and diagonally across west from that would be the Mediterranean, South would head towards Greece.


Using this idea:

The Latin sense shift in australis, if it is indeed the same word other IE languages use for east (see aurora), for which Latin uses oriens (see orient), is perhaps it is based on a false assumption about the orientation of Italy, "with shift through 'southeast' explained by the diagonal position of the axis of Italy"

The shape of Italy would point North to South, really to us a North west/south east alignment.

Posted Image
Look at Italy as a North-South pointer.

West would then be the Mediterranean west of Italy and East the White Sea direction.

The Balda Sea would be the Baltic Sea and not a boundary of any sort.

Edited by The Puzzler, 25 October 2010 - 03:24 AM.

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